Server Recommendations in general ... and any HP rackmounts experiences

[amfony]

Hello,

 

Just a quick question regarding how do you (yes you) spec your server infrastructure? I am in the position now where i will be recommending hardware for about 100% increase in concurrent connections across all services. (making it approx max 500 concurrent connections for any 1 service, and very likely for the ISA/WF SRV).

 

Whilst in the past i have suggested and 'felt out the situation' so to speak, i have never had a concrete method (or formula better) for providing specs for hardware, but to my credit never had under specced anything ive had to recommend.

 

In addition to this -- we currently have a few (alot) tower based servers and with this new introduction might be looking at rack mounts for their obvious benifits, can any comment on any caveats with rack mounts i might have to look out for? Special hardware? Reliability?

 

Thanks for your time guys.

[Geoff]

Rack mount kit costs more. Well, the servers don't but it's all the other bits you need to make a sensible rack mounted deployment that's nice to work with. In an ideal world you will have:

 

- A dedicated room, well lit and large enough for the rack, air con, power, fire supression systems and you to work in. This room needs to be insulated so your air con works efficiently. It also needs to be secure.

- If you will have multiple racks, it's worth while having the floor raised and put tiling in.

- Air con, specified to the right BTU for the kit you have/will have in future.

- Power, potentially 3way if you are getting beefy UPS'.

- A decent rack. This needs to be easy to work with. So the panels should be removable and the posts should be adjustable.

- One or more UPS'. You will need to check your servers power usage. Metered PDUs are helpful too.

- KVM + LCD screen/keyboard tray.

- Managed GigE switch(s).

[torledo]

Hello,

 

Just a quick question regarding how do you (yes you) spec your server infrastructure? I am in the position now where i will be recommending hardware for about 100% increase in concurrent connections across all services. (making it approx max 500 concurrent connections for any 1 service, and very likely for the ISA/WF SRV).

 

Whilst in the past i have suggested and 'felt out the situation' so to speak, i have never had a concrete method (or formula better) for providing specs for hardware, but to my credit never had under specced anything ive had to recommend.

 

In addition to this -- we currently have a few (alot) tower based servers and with this new introduction might be looking at rack mounts for their obvious benifits, can any comment on any caveats with rack mounts i might have to look out for? Special hardware? Reliability?

 

Thanks for your time guys.

 

Fortunately, the server options are relatively straightforward...1 or 2 socket boxes depending on application, a 5u pedestal/rack server these days provides little benefit over a a 2u server which has the necessary expansion for additional PCI cards. 2u server with 2.5" drives can carry 8 hot-swap SAS disks which is the most you should need...for anything beyond that storage wise you should be looking at NAS/SAN.

 

There are plenty of online tools available for server sizing based on application from the vendors.

 

Multi-core for ~2 socket servers have the benefit of being a great virtualization platform and most vendors price based on socket rather than core...so ~2 socket applications are priced very competitively.

 

Some sort of iLO or BMC capability would be handy for management of the server, redundant power supplies i would also recommend. Although that's pretty standard fare these days. I wouldn't go near any server that didn't have hot-swap drives in a rack form factor.

 

i haven't got a gread deal of experience with blades, but they allow greater density and improved cable routing and are a good choice for application server farms or for virtualization. If you've got a lot of towers blades could be an option for consolidation, although SAN/NAS storage is a must if you go down the blade route.

[torledo]

I agree with most of what geoff has said, and duly take note that he said 'ideal' but a raised floor really isn't advantageous for small server room.

 

a correctly sized comfort cooling system, ideally a backup unit in the case of a fault to the main unit, is more than adequate to cool a small server or comms room.

 

overhead cable routing would be implemented in the absence of a raised floor, and that should be done properly.

 

Agree about the ups, sufficiently beefy with redudancy and metred pdu's to the racks. Lack of ups to filter and safely shutdown equipment is the main cause of damage to network equipment in the event of power loss and transient voltage surges/spikes.

[amfony]

Thanks for the feeback so far guys.

 

Geoff i have the moajority of that list already in our current server room, we have funnily enough a spare rack in there with nothing in it (i dont know i just work there). So i am happy with that part.

 

Torledo - thanks for the tips, especially on the "pricing per processor" tidbit, wouldnt have even thought about that to be honest.

 

I still have a question mark over my head about specs though. And traversing the Hp.com.au website confuses me more so. Maybe instead of thinking of what i can get, i should work the other way.

 

As the high-end of processing and RAM utilization in our scenario, what would anybody recommend for a 500 concurrent connect-ed ISA Server (proxy,fw and logging) with a WebSense type webfilter running on it aswell? Thanks for the input.

 

Edit: Ive narrowed down my inability to understand the processor type, models and brand implications as the source of my confusion, and to be honest since everything has been on a shoe string up until this point i am unaware of the proper place, scenario to place a multiple processor or core in a server enviroment. If anyone can help me with this is would be greatly appreciated. Example: Difference between Xeon and Opteron and its implications. In the Xeon range what are the differences between 5001 and 5999 models *example, are the difference THAT significant? And anything else you got to tell me basically!

 

Again thanks for the time.

Edited May 21, 2008 by amfony
Adding more detail

[SYNACK]

As the high-end of processing and RAM utilization in our scenario, what would anybody recommend for a 500 concurrent connect-ed ISA Server (proxy,fw and logging) with a WebSense type webfilter running on it aswell? Thanks for the input.

 

We just put in a new filter server, a DL380 dual quad core xeons, Raid1 140gb SAS drives on a 512mb battery backed raid adapter and 2GB of RAM. This handles ISA 2k6 Surfcontrol Webfilter and Email filter. It seems to handle it just fine.

 

The biggest thing thing was the ability for simultaneous handling of the multiple tasks (accept request, check cache, run it through the filter, write to the DB if blocked and responding to the user) this is why we went for 8 cores.

 

The other big thing in this scenario was the hard drive speed, because of the multiple databases involved (email filter, web filter) and the way the email filter handles the emails there was a huge amount of small reads and writes to the hard drive system which was why we required the faster RAID card with more cache to level everything out.

 

This server handles about 150 simultaneous clients but with more ram should be able to scale to 500.

[SYNACK]

Edit: Ive narrowed down my inability to understand the processor type, models and brand implications as the source of my confusion, and to be honest since everything has been on a shoe string up until this point i am unaware of the proper place, scenario to place a multiple processor or core in a server enviroment. If anyone can help me with this is would be greatly appreciated. Example: Difference between Xeon and Opteron and its implications. In the Xeon range what are the differences between 5001 and 5999 models *example, are the difference THAT significant? And anything else you got to tell me basically!

 

Again thanks for the time.

 

For the moment the xeons are more power efficient and in New Zealand at least are far cheaper than the Opteron specked servers.

 

The architectural differences between the two at the moment are that the Opteron has true Quad core chips that can communicate between all four cores inside the CPU without involving the motherboard where as the Xeons are simply two dual core chips in the same package which must send communication through the motherboard to communicate.

 

In the real world this gives the Opteron the edge on some highly specific numerical tasks. However given the overall speed edge of the Xeon gear currently for almost all tasks the Xeon comes out on top.

 

The different models represent different speeds and internal structures, the higher end use smaller fabrication methods which make the chips cooler and more power efficient. The other big differences are in the on board cache size which can give the processors with more a boost in certain types of operations (usually sequential types). The other big factors are the clock speeds. One of the CPU cores which of course refers to how many cycles of instructions they can get through in a period of time. The other is the FSB (Front Side Bus) speed which tells you how fast they can communicate with the motherboard ie 800MHz FSB or 1333MHz FSB.

Edited May 21, 2008 by SYNACK
clarity

[DMcCoy]

I'm a big fan of the HP racks.

 

Things to look out for:

 

Get the 1m deep ones, this should fit anything

 

I'd also go for 42U, but remember this - it's taller than the standard door hight and will need to be tilted to go through doors and needs a few people to move around. Once in it's ok.

 

Delivery for the rack will cost quite a bit usually and it will arrive on a pallet.

[Geoff]

I'd also go for 42U, but remember this - it's taller than the standard door hight and will need to be tilted to go through doors and needs a few people to move around. Once in it's ok.

 

On a related note, you should secure your rack(s) to the floor. Also put your UPS' in the bottom of the rack(s). Having a top heavy rack that's not bolted down fall over and crush you can ruin your day.

[Ric_]

Also take a look at Sun kit... it is very good quality and they have some good promotions like trade-in and even two-for-one!!!

 

Opterons have the edge for terminal services and there are low-power versions of their processors which are supposedly cooler and more energy efficient.

[binky]

as for HP rackmounts, they are absolutely brilliant! I have deployed over 120 of these and only a few minor problems!

[torledo]

You can't go wrong with any of the big four...

 

Dell, HP, IBM, SUN.

 

Of the three HP make by far the ugliest servers, not a technical reason to discount hp i know, but damn they be uuuuugly servers. Not even so much as a grilled faceplate to hide the uglinous of them.

[SYNACK]

You can't go wrong with any of the big four...

 

Dell, HP, IBM, SUN.

 

Of the three HP make by far the ugliest servers, not a technical reason to discount hp i know, but damn they be uuuuugly servers. Not even so much as a grilled faceplate to hide the uglinous of them.

 

I beg to differ, IBM make the ugliest servers by far especially in the small business line. My theory is that they hired one case design guy in the 70's and have just been using his plans ever since, how else do you explain the think pads. Sure they are robust but I have seen toner cartages with more style than most IBM products.

 

 

 

 

Another note about rack mount stuff is that it is a pleasure to work with in comparison to the tower stuff as it is already layed flat, you just pull out the server, take off the side and start working.

[torledo]

I beg to differ, IBM make the ugliest servers by far especially in the small business line. My theory is that they hired one case design guy in the 70's and have just been using his plans ever since, how else do you explain the think pads. Sure they are robust but I have seen toner cartages with more style than most IBM products.

 

 

 

 

Another note about rack mount stuff is that it is a pleasure to work with in comparison to the tower stuff as it is already layed flat, you just pull out the server, take off the side and start working.

 

i dunno, i reckon they've got a certain 'black box' charm, i agree about the thinkpads though....the look just doesn't work these days, particularly when you look at something like the macbook black which trounces the thinkpads in that it looks both more serious AND more elegant.

 

I'm even finding the Dell latitude D630 and D420 more attractive than the thinkpads. Then again ibm don't do laptops any more, just aswell becuase i think the thinkpads are very long in the tooth.

 

I read an article a couple of weeks ago profiling the designer of the thinkpad, he designed a very cool table lamp and or two other industrial looking items with the thinkpad being his most famous creation.

Edited May 21, 2008 by torledo

[Ric_]

(Stop knocking ThinkPads and go for a look at the X300!)

 

I know lots of people get on fine with Dell rack servers but IMHO the build quality isn't amazing. As I mention above, I currently like Sun kit (excellent out of band management too as standard) but HP is a close second.

[Simcfc73]

Words of caution.

 

Don't try and fit a server into a standard rack, I have one that won't let me put the front bezel on.

If it does fit in then make sure the rack isn't twisted, they are buggers to slide in and out.

 

I was young and foolish when I bought my rack server, I should have just got a pedestal

[mattx]

Avoid Prism racks - they are complete and utter sh*t.

I feel better for getting that off my chest...

[amfony]

hi guys,

 

Thanks alot for the input and direction. Especially for the overview of the processors that really helped me out. So far we are now looking at a HP DL360 dual processor, 8 GB ram with SAS disks. Thanks to SynACK for the real world example of implmentation, that helped alot.

 

Cheers!

[maniac]

This is our server room, nice a large, 2 x racks so they're not over crowded, air conditioned and no windows. The servers are spaced a bit better now than when the pic was taken, that was just after the summer in 2006 and the 2 servers at the bottom were old ones due to be decommisioned once their replacements were fully tested.

 

I like it, it's one of the better server rooms I've come across, although the air conditioning is on its limit now keeps the room cool, but not cold any more. Just behind it you can see our main comms cabinet (that was a bit of a mess at the time) and in the back corner, some of the old servers we had just replaced!

 

Mike

Edited May 25, 2008 by maniac

[DMcCoy]

Pity the door handles are upside down

[torledo]

Pity the door handles are upside down

 

The actual door on the rack to the right is upside down!!!!...

 

The second pic explains why they've done that but i'm just not sure they needed to. I suppose it doesn't really matter so long as both doors close.

 

Very nice racks though we've got the newer 10000 G2's which provide more airflow to the equipment and the side panels come in 3 instead of one piece. Also, last time i checked you can't put the doors on upside down on the G2's..

 

Looks as if they've also got the hp pdu mounted in the side of the rack and is that a hp tft drawer on the right ?.....now that is flash. And v. expensive.

 

If it's just a hp pull-out keyboard it's not that expensive. i agree with maniac...it's a nice little setup would look even nicer with poweredges or Sun x 4100's instead of those pug ugly proliant DL380's.

Edited May 25, 2008 by torledo

[joe90bass]

Avoid Prism racks - they are complete and utter sh*t.

I feel better for getting that off my chest...

 

Agreed, we have two. One is in a classroom with Cisco switches and routers in for the CCNA course I used to teach. The lock disappeared of it one day!!!

 

Carrying on the theme of showing racks (can't beat a nice rack ) here's the one for our new school in progress!

[nicholab]

I got my 2 dells 999mm deep for about £800. I got one with no side pannels as they were going side by side so I moved one of the sides and bolted then together with some big bolts.. Etb-tech is great for kitting out your racks with those extra that any IT shop should have.

[BaccyNet]

We've just got a HP rack and I gotta say it makes things so much easier! As far as Prisim racks being rubbish, We've got quite a few of various sizes and not had any trouble with them (although they only have switches/patch panels in them!)

 

The HP only currently houses our new blade chassis and a ups. I really want to change our other rack to a HP though:p

 

 

Just a slight spin-off, how many of you have fire surpression in your server rooms? We've got air-con (was that a battle!!) and hopefully sometime they may finally put the new flooring down in there. I'm just curious as to if people see the need for fire stuff?

 

Steve:)

[torledo]

We've just got a HP rack and I gotta say it makes things so much easier! As far as Prisim racks being rubbish, We've got quite a few of various sizes and not had any trouble with them (although they only have switches/patch panels in them!)

 

The HP only currently houses our new blade chassis and a ups. I really want to change our other rack to a HP though:p

 

 

Just a slight spin-off, how many of you have fire surpression in your server rooms? We've got air-con (was that a battle!!) and hopefully sometime they may finally put the new flooring down in there. I'm just curious as to if people see the need for fire stuff?

 

Steve:)

 

have not looked into it tbh, just assumed it would be too expensive to do.

 

what is the standard method of doing fire surpression for server rooms these days....i know halon has been banned for a number of years...has it been replace by a different gas based supressant.

 

(i have no idea if surpressant is even a word)..

 

btw i can't speak higher of the hp racks...the 36U 10000 G2 i think is the best value rack money can buy - we've got two of them with the baying kit to tie them together. and you don't even need to tilt it to get it through the door...slights into position with no fuss.