Softxpand Miniframe

[PeteHopton]

Display link is just USB VGA. It's much slower than a standard graphics adaptor.

 

I'm concerned over all these 'unofficial' responses, these are usually personal opinions and people move on and change, attitudes and direction also change - as has been illustrated by multipoint server.

 

In relation to X series and multipoint server, yes you could, but to date it doesn't properly address the sound mouse and keyboard.

 

Ncomputing made a press announcement that they were working towards compatibility with Multipoint Server with all devices.

[nut-ed]

My guess would be that display link brings fast compression/decompression for VGA graphics over USB in order to speed up the display when run through USB.

 

I can't see how, even with DisplayLink, a USB based graphics solution could be as fast as a native port on the back of a standard graphics card. With the GPU processing power, GDDR memory and PCIe bus behind it.

 

Fair point - it remains to be seen if Multipoint/USB provides "sufficient" graphics performance - if it's not significantly better than "tried and tested" thin clients the whole thing may just fizzle out.

[Ric_]

Sorry folks,

 

I think the wrong link was in my previous post.

Windows MultiPoint Mouse Software Development Kit

 

Ric, this is the product that I confused you with before.

 

The difference between Multipoint Mouse and SoftXpand is that Multipoint Mouse is a way to use multiple mice with one computer and one screen. In fact I've got a couple of teachers trialling an implementation of the concept after reading about it Microsoft UK Schools : A new way to add interactivity and quizzes to PowerPoint presentations - Mr Fleming's blog is awesome!

 

The Multipoint Mouse software does not allow multi-seat computing like SoftXpand, nComputing or Multipoint Server do.

 

The document linked to earlier in this thread clearly states that Vista and Windows 7 definitely cannot be used for multi-seat computing and that the licensing implications are effectively the same as those concerning thin client computing (Remore Desktop Services as Microsoft now call it). Of course, this does not mean that SoftXpand, nComputing, Multipoint Server (or any other similar product that runs multiple terminals off a single box) are not viable computing solutions that have a place in schools.

[RogerAnscombe]

Hi Ric,

 

You are correct. SoftXpand and MS Multipoint Mouse are very different products just as nComputing and MultiPoint Server are also very different to SoftXpand. The reason for pointing out the Multipoint Mouse is just to show that Microsoft are content with multiple users on a single XP unit. In this case up to 25. The number of users is therefore not an issue. There are many applications especially with stockbrokers, and I suppect a number of school IT managers, that use multiple monitors on one PC so the number of monitors is not an issue either. As I stated earlier MS cannot have one rule for themselves and another rule for others. They know this and have therefore chosen to keep quiet. In their position I think I would be tempted to do the same. MiniFrame and Microsoft are not in competition. SoftXpand has been writen specifically for a windows platform and only for a windows platform. We are therefore insisting that anyone who wishes to purchase the most eco friendly desktop solution must also purchase a windows license. No units ever leave our premises without a full legal copy of Windows.

 

Roger

[tmcd35]

The question comes down to the legality, wording and 'spirit' of the EULA. For Windows 7 Pro your problem comes in clause 2c

 

c. Number of Users. Unless otherwise provided in these license terms, only one user may use the software at a time on the licensed computer.

 

Fair enough, this clause alone throws doubt over the use of Multipoint Mouse and indeed meny multiplayer games - PGA Golf anyone? - however this is what is ment by the 'spirit' of the agreement. In this case the 'spirit' being not allowing multiple users to each individually control and access their own idividual software and files.

 

There are larger questions as to whether EULA's are even legal in this country. I've read compelling arguements online that suggest that they may well not be. IF that is the case then we could buy XP/7/MAC OS off the self and do what we want with it - including run SoftXpand. This position, to my knowledge, as never been tested in a UK court.

 

Either way the legality or the 'spirit' of the EULA would be a matter for the courts. This most likely means MS suing for breech of the terms. This means the question becomes - anybody want to risk being the test case? For my board of governors the answer is - No, unsurprisingly.

 

Any how, full EULA's for MS products can be found here...

http://www.microsoft.com/About/Legal/EN/US/IntellectualProperty/UseTerms/Default.aspx

[RogerAnscombe]

Hi tmcd35,

 

I understand your concern over the Win7 license clause but as SoftXpand doesn't use Win7 it is just not an issue. SoftXpand runs on XP Pro which I hope everybody now understands is not a problem at all. The only suggestions that I can find in the whole of this forum questioning the legality of software have been quoting EULAs from either Win7 or MultiPoint Server neither of which have anything to do with SoftXpand.

[nut-ed]

Hi tmcd35,

 

I understand your concern over the Win7 license clause but as SoftXpand doesn't use Win7 it is just not an issue. SoftXpand runs on XP Pro which I hope everybody now understands is not a problem at all. The only suggestions that I can find in the whole of this forum questioning the legality of software have been quoting EULAs from either Win7 or MultiPoint Server neither of which have anything to do with SoftXpand.

 

There is a parallel/similar discussion on another thread about the licence/legality of Ncomputing on XP, and from a licencing point of view its hard to see how/why MS would differentiate between multiple users hanging off a PC by a VGA cable or a USB cable or any other kind of cable for that matter

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/thin-client-virtual-machines/50790-n-computing-anyone-using-3.html#post470974

 

Microsoft did provide a definitive answer to their licencing issue. (of course in favour of MS)

 

It is hard to see how this thread is going to resolve without a similar formal quote - whether you feel it is necessary or not, the claims of one lone salesman are not very convincing.

[RogerAnscombe]

Hi nut-ed,

 

Again you are confusing two unconnected products. SoftXpand and nComputing are very different products as you can tell by some comments stating how difficult it is to upgrade the OS when nComputing is used. This is not a problem with SoftXpand. SoftXpand is just another application running on an XP Pro PC. It does not change the OS or hack into it like other multiseat systems do. If SoftXpand was a problem then Microsoft would have produced a statement by now just as they did with nComputing. They have not because SoftXpand is not a problem. We might be a thorn in their flesh but that is more likely to be because they may be annoyed that they did not think about multiseat computing first.

[Ric_]

I understand your concern over the Win7 license clause but as SoftXpand doesn't use Win7 it is just not an issue. SoftXpand runs on XP Pro which I hope everybody now understands is not a problem at all. The only suggestions that I can find in the whole of this forum questioning the legality of software have been quoting EULAs from either Win7 or MultiPoint Server neither of which have anything to do with SoftXpand.

 

But it is a problem as we all migrate to Windows 7. Many schools have already migrated to 7 and many others have a migration plan in place. SoftXpand will not fit into that migration plan.

 

Earlier in the thread you stated the following:

 

SoftXpand currently is writen to run on the tried and tested XP Pro. Like many developers we are not going to look at Vista but we will produce a Win 7 version.

 

Is this still the case given the Microsoft licensing documentation, posted by PeteHopton, which clearly states that 7 cannot be used for this purpose?

 

I'm also still not convinced that the EULA for XP Pro allows for this type of use. The first section states:

 

Installation and use. You may install, use, access, display and run one copy of the Product on a single computer, such as a workstation, terminal or other device (“Workstation Computer”). The Product may not be used by more than two (2) processors at any one time on any single Workstation Computer. You may permit a maximum of ten (10) computers or other electronic devices (each a “Device”) to connect to the Workstation Computer to utilize the services of the Product solely for File and Print services, Internet Information Services, and remote access (including connection sharing and telephony services). The ten connection maximum includes any indirect connections made through “multiplexing” or other software or hardware which pools or aggregates connections. Except as otherwise permitted by the NetMeeting, Remote Assistance, and Remote Desktop features described below, you may not use the Product to permit any Device to use, access, display or run other executable software residing on the Workstation Computer, nor may you permit any Device to use, access, display, or run the Product or Product’s user interface, unless the Device has a separate license for the Product.

 

To me that reads that up to 10 remote devices may connect to the machine for file sharing, printing or using IIS. It also states that the only way that you may run programs for use by multiple devices (defined as a thing that is used to access services - in this instance it would be the collection of mouse, keyboard and monitor and the service would be shared computing) is through the use of either NetMeeting, Remote Assistance or Remote Desktop.

[PeteHopton]

As I stated earlier MS cannot have one rule for themselves and another rule for others. They know this and have therefore chosen to keep quiet. In their position I think I would be tempted to do the same. MiniFrame and Microsoft are not in competition.

 

Yes, they do, they've responded to the use of XP for multiseat computing by udpating the EULA in SP3, Vista and W7 to include term 2c.

 

The multipoint mouse is an "approved device" and is covered during the license agreement, microsoft are in a position legally to grant an additional license to anyone to use this device.

 

There is a 'grey' way of licensing XP for multiseat computing, use XP SP2, with an XP SP2 EULA, but not with a downgrade rights redemtion from W7 or Vista.

 

Of course, the legit way is to install server 2003, buy some tsl's and run ncomputing vspace or LG Network Monitor. Which for education works out cheaper anyway right?

[RogerAnscombe]

Hi Ric,

 

Win 7 may be more difficult than XP. We will have to work on the licensing as well as the technology just as we did with the XP version. If you interpret the XP EULA to suggest that SoftXpand is illegal then you have to admit that MS Multipoint Mouse is also illegal, but you tell me that you are already using MP Mouse. I don't want to be rude but this sounds like double standards to me or are you just satisfied that Microsoft will not sue you for using their own product? It is difficult isn't it?

[PeteHopton]

Microsoft have the rights to sell a license for Multipoint mouse, it's their product, so is windows.

[Ric_]

If you interpret the XP EULA to suggest that SoftXpand is illegal then you have to admit that MS Multipoint Mouse is also illegal, but you tell me that you are already using MP Mouse. I don't want to be rude but this sounds like double standards to me or are you just satisfied that Microsoft will not sue you for using their own product? It is difficult isn't it?

 

I agree, if I were to use the Multipoint Mouse technology to allow several people to control multiple instances of an application, it would then be breaking the EULA. The implementation I use simply allows multiple mice to be used to answer questions within Powerpoint presentations.

 

As PeteHopton states, MS do also have the right to grant exceptions to their EULAs and I imagine that they would grant an exception for their own technologies.

[PeteHopton]

You'll find multipoint mouse explicitly excepted from term 2c in the W7 and latest Vista EULA. It is covered under the "Additional license terms" term 2, which is reverenced in 2c.

[RogerAnscombe]

Thank you Peter for that comment. You have pointed out exactly what I have been saying. Microsoft are trying to have one rule for themselves and a different rule for others. This may work in some developing countries but in Europe and US this is illegal. This is why both US and EU have splapped enormous fines recently on Microsoft. I agree that Microsoft have every right to sell any product they like but by European law then must then allow others do supply similar or better products.

 

Any organisation is of course free to chose conventional desktop PCs, thin clients or "The Ultimate Green PC". It all comes down to quality and performance. As far as cost is concerned there is great confusion here as SoftXpand is always sold and quoted for a comlete solution including PC, keyboards, mice, USB hubs and software whereas all the adverts for nComputing I have seen are just for the access devices and ignore the controlling PC and additional CALs required. When all the costs are added up I believe SoftXpand is a clear winner but I would rather you looked back through this forum as this is much more convincing coming from end users who have tried both.

 

I joined this forum for one reason only as I wanted to bring some facts to answer questions that were being asked by the members. I sell SoftXpand because I believe in the product and the benefits it brings not just to the end users but also to the wider community through carbon savings. I was offered NComputing to sell but I turned it down as I considered it to be an inferior product to SoftXpand. You sell nComputing so we both need to be very carefull that this forum does not degenerate into a tennis match. Both SoftXpand and nComputing are multiseat solutions and both will save carbon to differing degrees so both are valuable products and I am very happy for them to be tested side by side.

[Ric_]

Thank you Peter for that comment. You have pointed out exactly what I have been saying. Microsoft are trying to have one rule for themselves and a different rule for others. This may work in some developing countries but in Europe and US this is illegal. This is why both US and EU have splapped enormous fines recently on Microsoft. I agree that Microsoft have every right to sell any product they like but by European law then must then allow others do supply similar or better products.

 

Have you asked for an exception from Microsoft? I suspect that there would be a hefty charge for the priviledge but if you don't ask you don't get.

 

At the same time, Microsoft do provide a means for you to develop a product (using a server OS rather than a client OS). Microsoft also provide the Multipoint Mouse SDK to developers - if you were to use this to develop your solution you would probably be able to use your solution on a client OS. I don't really think you can say that the EULA is anti-competitive.

 

Any organisation is of course free to chose conventional desktop PCs, thin clients or "The Ultimate Green PC". It all comes down to quality and performance. As far as cost is concerned there is great confusion here as SoftXpand is always sold and quoted for a comlete solution including PC, keyboards, mice, USB hubs and software whereas all the adverts for nComputing I have seen are just for the access devices and ignore the controlling PC and additional CALs required. When all the costs are added up I believe SoftXpand is a clear winner but I would rather you looked back through this forum as this is much more convincing coming from end users who have tried both.

 

This thread is not about the relative cost benefits of SoftXpand, nComputing or any other product... I think we all agree that using one of these multi-seat computing models can have TCO benefits as well as 'green' benefits.

[Bluetooth]

Seems like i cant get away from the SoftXpand stuff lol.

 

I never got back to this thread because MS never got back to me unfortunately, however i can see a nice debate going on and such and im not here to chime in on that, rather i have some questions about softxpand as im in need of 6 systems at a cheap price, and id like some questions answered if possible.

 

I am replacing some old dead machines and already have motherboards, keyboards and mice, however the keyboards are PS2, i take it you cant use PS2 mice with softxpand? (something about usb hubs or whatever)

 

The machines i purchase will have to go on a domain, is it possible to use softxpand as part of a 2003 domain and will each of the machines from softxpand show up individually in active directory?

 

Same question for sophos enterprise console/em library

 

Final question, can anyone recommend a reseller for a softxpand system? Thanks!

[tmcd35]

AFAIK you'd need to talk direct to Miniframe UK. Although you might want to check out VeryPC who do bespoke nComputing and Multipoint Server solutions. Microsoft Multipoint Server is now available via your usual Volume License reseller. Having used and setup all three systems - my money is on MS Multipoint Server. If you like I can PM you the details of the reseller who sold me the HP Kit I've just installed.

[RogerAnscombe]

Hi Bluetooth,

 

Your are correct that the keyboards and mice do need to be USB apart from one set that can be connected to the standard PS2 ports but this will not save you much. Most manufacturers supply a new keyboard and mouse with each new PC so we follow suit and each SoftXpand system is normally supplied complete with 6 keyboards, 6 mice and 6 4 port USB hubs.

 

Using SoftXpand, each user will log onto your domain in exactly the same way as if they had separate individual PCs. That is one of the Joys of SoftXpand, apart from the increase in PC performance, the end users generally do not know that they are sharing one PC.

 

Oriel technical College in Norfolk use Sophos for their antivirus on all their SoftXpand units and have saved a lot of their budget.

 

Your nearest reseller is CCL at Tong. They usually have a 6 user demo in their showroom but last time I was there it was out on loan to a school.

 

If you have any questions you can always call me on 01629 700270

 

Regards

 

Roger

[Bluetooth]

Hi Roger

 

THanks for your reply.

 

I think ill be popping up to CCL after work or maybe this weekend depdning on how things go. Do the technical college use just sophos or enterprise console?

 

Also (A quick return to the licensing debate stuff), i just read a ZDNet review of softxpand and basically the article claims that softxpand is actually legal because even though you are using remote desktop in a way, there is only one machine creating the processes etc and therefore it doesnt violate MS's T&C's. Is this correct?

 

Thanks again

[RogerAnscombe]

Hi Bluetooth,

You are correct. There is no problem with the Microsoft licensing. Unfortunately a few people have spread a rumour about the licensing issue and rumours are like burst feather pillows. Once released you can never collect all the feathers back together again.

I do not know the exact version of Sophos used at Oriel but I do know that it is a suite and not just AV. I also know that he spoke to Sophos about their licensing and was informed that he would only need one license per cluster as there is only one hard drive to check. He tells me that this has saved his school an additional £4,000. He also told me at BETT that if he used standalone PCs throughout his school, he would need to employ an additional 2 technicians just to maintain them. The savings from SoftXpand go on and on.

 

Regards

 

Roger

[Bluetooth]

Hi

 

Thanks for your reply Roger. I have spoken to one of my suppliers (who i beleive has been in touch with you regarding demo and such).

 

I was not asking about sophos from the point of view of licensing as kirklees purchase sophos in a LEA wide license so we're pretty free to use sophos as many times as we like afaik. The reason i was wondering was because of sophos em console and such i didnt want any incompatiblity and such.

 

i beleive i may be coming down to matlock with my supplier maybe some point next week but with monday being my on call time and no schools being in im not actually at work and therefore not able to do research/come take a peek.

 

I will be coming down most likely sometime in the near future for sure.

[RogerAnscombe]

Hi Bluetooth,

 

I look forward to meeting you soon and showing you the very latest release of SoftXpand. It is now even better than you have seen before.

 

I have checked with Oriel College and they are using Sophos enterprise console/em library.

 

Regards

 

Roger

[Gov]

This all looks pretty interesting. I am an I.T. Governor at a small primary school and we are looking for a new system with approx 16 PC's. Could you give me an idea how much such a solution would cost? Thanks

[tmcd35]

This all looks pretty interesting. I am an I.T. Governor at a small primary school and we are looking for a new system with approx 16 PC's. Could you give me an idea how much such a solution would cost? Thanks

 

Depends on a number of factors -

• What you use as a base PC
  
• The ratio of seats/users to 1 PC
  
• Which OS you want to use
  
• Your view on licensing requirements
  
• Which tech (nComp/SoftXpand/Multipoint/etc) you want use
  

 

Personally I'd budget around £700 for the base PC and work on wither a 4:1, 5:1 or 6:1 ratio depending on workload of each PC (type of programs being run, etc). Bare in mind at the very least you'll need to buy a Monitor, USB Keyboard, USB Mouse and USB hub for each seat. Also you'll definately need at least a Windows CAL for each seat if you are running on a Windows Domain network and probably a Microsoft Office license for each seat (unless of course you choose to use OpenOffice instead).

 

For 16 seats I'd guess at change from around £7k or £8k. Carefull planning and choices with a low work load may just get a solution under £5k - at a guess.