RogerAnscombe

Hi Gary, Please do not roll back to SP2. We spoke to your colleague last week about this and suggested this may be caused by a graphics driver. We emailed last week to check on progress but we have not heard since so assumed the systems are now ok. Our technical support is free so please call us on 01629 534134

Hi Peter, Your comments remind me of a certain Dragons' Den performance when you also tried to persuade us that wrong was right. You state that "I don't rumor, but prefer fact and reference in my communications" so let's have some facts. MiniFrameUK Ltd is not, and has never been, a subsidiary of any other company. It is a UK registered company, totally owned by UK shareholders and run entirely by UK Directors. It was established at the request of MiniFrame in Israel to distribute their products in UK and to reduce confusion with activities of Kira Supplies Ltd who sell products from a variety of Manufacturers. The name MiniFrameUK was chosen by the Israeli company, not us. Rumours are very easy to sow and you state you do not rumour so let's have some facts from you. If you know of any customer in Manchester, school or business, that has bought or borrowed a SoftXpand Ecoware system is is unhappy with it, please let me know because I am unaware of any. Your story about customers who have bought Greenhive does not agree with the story I was given by Colin, nor does it agree with the information I was given by the IT Managers at the organisations who told me they have never heard of VeryPC. Colin told me that he had merely given a list of customers who he knew had purchased SoftXpand even though he knew it was while he worked for Kira Supplies. If you wish to remain a "respected member of the industry" then you need to start to be more honest.

It is true that reputations are developed by a trust in individuals. We used to have an employee who would happily tell customers what he thought they wanted to hear instead of the truth. The result was sometimes a disappointment with the goods received. Happily he is no longer with us and now works for you Peter and I notice from various blogs that he has not changed. A recent press release from VeryPC listed a number of customers that had supposedly bought from Very. As these are customers of Kira Supplies, I called them to find out and was told they have never heard of VeryPC and certainly not bought from them. It is not my policy to criticise the opposition and I am very sorry that you Peter have decided to use this forum to spread accusations when you are not aware of the facts. SoftXpand Ecoware has been used in a number of schools for over 3 years and I have happily extended the warranty from the original 3 years to 5 years as the failure rate is around 1%. One school that had nearly 400 seats of SoftXpand kept 3 spare systems in a cupboard for emergency replacement. When they were still there 12 months later, they decided instead to roll out an additional 18 seats for students. I can only repeat that MiniFrameUK is very much alive and has resellers who now cover the whole of the UK. MiniFrameUK only sells the products developed by MiniFrame in Israel, unlike LondonWeb who has also been appointed as a distributor for SoftXpand. We continue to do well because of our expertise and total honesty (with our current staff). I would much prefer to continue to sell excellent products and services due to the excellent reputation we have built up over the years (Including with Manchester LEA) rather than attacking the competition. I trust that those who read this forum will listen to our customers rather than competitors and ex employees. As the one company within UK that has the most experience with SoftXpand I will be happy to respond to any questions from schools which I believe is what this forum should be about.

Hi All, It has been a long time since I have looked at this thread as I have been too busy selling Multiseat computing all over the country. I do need to correct an error I have just noticed. Kira Supplies has always been a VAR selling SoftXpand and other IT products. MiniFrameUK is the UK distributor of SoftXpand software and works through VARs from Scotland down to Kent and Cornwall. MiniFrameUK only supplies the products developed by MiniFrame in Israel. Some confusion is caused because Kira Supplies has put together a hardware package that works particularly well with SoftXpand and this is called Ecoware. Ecoware is also available nationwide through the same VARs that have signed up with MiniFrameUK. Following a number of pilot installs, SoftXpand has now been included as an approved technology for some of the BSF projects that have not been cancelled. If anyone wants up to date information on MiniFrameUK or Kira Supplies please talk to us rather than listen to false rumours.

Thank you karvijn for sending me the link to the reseller in Belgium. All is now clear. This site has nothing at all to do with SoftXpand. It is very obviously a totally diffeernt solution. I can tell this as SoftXpand does not operate on Linux. There are a number of other multi seat computer solutions around that work very differently and therefore will need a different licensing model. nComputing is one example that uses access devices in the same way as thin clients and therefore needs to follow the thin client licensing model. With SoftXpand there are no such devices to license. It is also possible that Microsoft have a different licensing arrangement in Belgium to the one in UK. As I only sell in UK, I am only concerned with what is legal in UK. If you want to know the legal position in any other country you will need to contact the SoftXpand dealer there but please make sure you are looking at the right product.

I do not know who the Belgium dealer is but they seem to be confused about how SoftXpand works. SoftXpand works on Windows XP pro, not yet on WIndows 7 so karvijn must be confusing SoftXpand with some other technology. Also SoftXpand has nothing to do with Steady State which is a Microsoft product. Interesting that it no longer works with their own latest operating system. There has been a lot of call on this forum for a definitive statement form Microsoft but we all know that is unlikely to happen as the only correct answer would not be to their advantage, however I can now supply the next best thing. Andrew Miller MP is the chairman of the UK Parliament IT Committee (PITCOM) and in his official posision aproached Microsoft to get their answer which I quote below. It is interesting that Microsoft are even unsure whether one or more licenses of Office would be required. I have always suggested multiple copies if only on moral grounds. Quote from Andrew Miller MP "Some time ago I spoke to the Government Affairs officer of Microsoft and I am confident that there are no licensing issues regarding the operating system. If you have (say) 5 users on your system using 1 processor, that equals one operating system. However as there are 5 users there is an argument that there should be a 5 user licence for applications, but even that is tenuous. Regards, Andrew Miller MP"

Hi Gov, Thank you for your interest in SoftXpand, "The Ultimate Green PC". SoftXpand is sold through resellers and if you would like to forward your contact details to me I will ask Intalect who are the reseller covering Lincolnshire to contact you with an exact quote. As a rough guide you should expect to pay around £3900 for an 18 user suite (3 X 6 user). This will include all keyboards, mice, usb hubs and OS licenses. No CALs are required with SoftXpand. Additionally you may require monitors if you do not have these already, and in a primary school I would recommend headphones for each student to reduce excess noise in the classroom. There are now a number of SoftXpand installations in Lincolnshire schools so there should be a reference site close to you. Regards Roger

Hi Bluetooth, I look forward to meeting you soon and showing you the very latest release of SoftXpand. It is now even better than you have seen before. I have checked with Oriel College and they are using Sophos enterprise console/em library. Regards Roger

Hi Bluetooth, You are correct. There is no problem with the Microsoft licensing. Unfortunately a few people have spread a rumour about the licensing issue and rumours are like burst feather pillows. Once released you can never collect all the feathers back together again. I do not know the exact version of Sophos used at Oriel but I do know that it is a suite and not just AV. I also know that he spoke to Sophos about their licensing and was informed that he would only need one license per cluster as there is only one hard drive to check. He tells me that this has saved his school an additional £4,000. He also told me at BETT that if he used standalone PCs throughout his school, he would need to employ an additional 2 technicians just to maintain them. The savings from SoftXpand go on and on. Regards Roger

Hi Bluetooth, Your are correct that the keyboards and mice do need to be USB apart from one set that can be connected to the standard PS2 ports but this will not save you much. Most manufacturers supply a new keyboard and mouse with each new PC so we follow suit and each SoftXpand system is normally supplied complete with 6 keyboards, 6 mice and 6 4 port USB hubs. Using SoftXpand, each user will log onto your domain in exactly the same way as if they had separate individual PCs. That is one of the Joys of SoftXpand, apart from the increase in PC performance, the end users generally do not know that they are sharing one PC. Oriel technical College in Norfolk use Sophos for their antivirus on all their SoftXpand units and have saved a lot of their budget. Your nearest reseller is CCL at Tong. They usually have a 6 user demo in their showroom but last time I was there it was out on loan to a school. If you have any questions you can always call me on 01629 700270 Regards Roger

Thank you Peter for that comment. You have pointed out exactly what I have been saying. Microsoft are trying to have one rule for themselves and a different rule for others. This may work in some developing countries but in Europe and US this is illegal. This is why both US and EU have splapped enormous fines recently on Microsoft. I agree that Microsoft have every right to sell any product they like but by European law then must then allow others do supply similar or better products. Any organisation is of course free to chose conventional desktop PCs, thin clients or "The Ultimate Green PC". It all comes down to quality and performance. As far as cost is concerned there is great confusion here as SoftXpand is always sold and quoted for a comlete solution including PC, keyboards, mice, USB hubs and software whereas all the adverts for nComputing I have seen are just for the access devices and ignore the controlling PC and additional CALs required. When all the costs are added up I believe SoftXpand is a clear winner but I would rather you looked back through this forum as this is much more convincing coming from end users who have tried both. I joined this forum for one reason only as I wanted to bring some facts to answer questions that were being asked by the members. I sell SoftXpand because I believe in the product and the benefits it brings not just to the end users but also to the wider community through carbon savings. I was offered NComputing to sell but I turned it down as I considered it to be an inferior product to SoftXpand. You sell nComputing so we both need to be very carefull that this forum does not degenerate into a tennis match. Both SoftXpand and nComputing are multiseat solutions and both will save carbon to differing degrees so both are valuable products and I am very happy for them to be tested side by side.

Hi Ric, Win 7 may be more difficult than XP. We will have to work on the licensing as well as the technology just as we did with the XP version. If you interpret the XP EULA to suggest that SoftXpand is illegal then you have to admit that MS Multipoint Mouse is also illegal, but you tell me that you are already using MP Mouse. I don't want to be rude but this sounds like double standards to me or are you just satisfied that Microsoft will not sue you for using their own product? It is difficult isn't it?

Hi nut-ed, Again you are confusing two unconnected products. SoftXpand and nComputing are very different products as you can tell by some comments stating how difficult it is to upgrade the OS when nComputing is used. This is not a problem with SoftXpand. SoftXpand is just another application running on an XP Pro PC. It does not change the OS or hack into it like other multiseat systems do. If SoftXpand was a problem then Microsoft would have produced a statement by now just as they did with nComputing. They have not because SoftXpand is not a problem. We might be a thorn in their flesh but that is more likely to be because they may be annoyed that they did not think about multiseat computing first.

Hi tmcd35, I understand your concern over the Win7 license clause but as SoftXpand doesn't use Win7 it is just not an issue. SoftXpand runs on XP Pro which I hope everybody now understands is not a problem at all. The only suggestions that I can find in the whole of this forum questioning the legality of software have been quoting EULAs from either Win7 or MultiPoint Server neither of which have anything to do with SoftXpand.

Hi Ric, You are correct. SoftXpand and MS Multipoint Mouse are very different products just as nComputing and MultiPoint Server are also very different to SoftXpand. The reason for pointing out the Multipoint Mouse is just to show that Microsoft are content with multiple users on a single XP unit. In this case up to 25. The number of users is therefore not an issue. There are many applications especially with stockbrokers, and I suppect a number of school IT managers, that use multiple monitors on one PC so the number of monitors is not an issue either. As I stated earlier MS cannot have one rule for themselves and another rule for others. They know this and have therefore chosen to keep quiet. In their position I think I would be tempted to do the same. MiniFrame and Microsoft are not in competition. SoftXpand has been writen specifically for a windows platform and only for a windows platform. We are therefore insisting that anyone who wishes to purchase the most eco friendly desktop solution must also purchase a windows license. No units ever leave our premises without a full legal copy of Windows. Roger

Sorry folks, I think the wrong link was in my previous post. Windows MultiPoint Mouse Software Development Kit Ric, this is the product that I confused you with before.

Thank you tcmc35 for you helpful comment. It would seem that your "Unofficial" response from Microsoft is the same as the "unofficial" response that they have given UK Government and on that basis government departments are confident to buy. It is a shame that Microsoft are not prepared to make their unofficial comments official but I do understand why they prefer not to do so as uncertainty boosts their profit. Do look at Microsoft MultiPoint Mouse: http://www.microsoft.com/multipoint/mouse-sdk/default.aspx. If SofXpand is illegal then so is Multipoint Mouse. Let's have one rule for everybody. Microsoft would love to have their cake and eat it, wouldn't we all.

Hi Peter, I am surprised by your comments. You have seen how SoftXpand works and therefore know that it is very different to the nComputing solution. The link you sent was for licensing nComputing on MultiPoint Server 2010. As SoftXpand is a totally different product that behaves in a totally different way and runs on a totally different operating system, this is a complete red herring. SoftXpand is an application that runs on a single PC with a single operating system. It does not alter or "Hack" the OS as some people believe and this is why there is no problem with OS upgrades. SoftXpand Ecoware is a PC, not a server so please, please let us get away from this hang up on server licensing. There is no more need for a server license on a SoftXpand Ecoware system than on any other PC. The only people who think this are those who do not understand how SoftXpand works or people who have a commercial interest in alternative technologies. I have been asked in previous comments to state emphatically what are the licensing issues when using SoftXpand. Let me repeat. ONE copy of XP Pro per device. Not Windows Server or MultiPoint Server; They are for servers. The only way to fully understand how SoftXpand works is to see it in operation.

Hi nut-ed, You are right, there is much more I could have said but I thought I had said enough. SoftXpand currently is writen to run on the tried and tested XP Pro. Like many developers we are not going to look at Vista but we will produce a Win 7 version. The best bench testing so far was done by PC Plus magazine when they compared what they considered to be the three major contenders in desktop virtualisation. Softpand was awarded a PC Plus Performance award with 4.5 stars out of 5, VMWare Player received 3.5 stars and Microsoft Virtual PC 2007 received 3.5 stars. The best benchmarking is how does it work in a school environment and we rely on our customers to report on that. We had been very encouraged by the reports we receive. There are two important items I did not mention yesterday: SoftXpand does not use any proprietrary hardware so in years to come any spares will be more easily available. SoftXpand is an aplication that runs on the XP OS and does not alter or hack the OS and therefore automatic or manual updates of the OS do not cause any problems.

Hi Dave, Thank you for the invitation. If I get banned I will blame you! There is a lovely expression that says, "If it sounds too good to be true, then it probably is". SoftXpand is a product that does sound too good to be true which is why I prefer to demonstrate it than just talk about it. We now have over 30 resellers around the country who all have demo equipment so I am sure we could arrange for you to see for yourself. I don't like running down the competition as any multi-seat computer is helping the environment and if all you want is to type in Word, then please just buy the cheapest. In practise, most users today want full multimedia and I am told that this is now firmly included in the National Curriculum. Each monitor on SoftXpand is connected directly to a dedicated nVidia GeForce graphics card so the graphics output and processing is actually usually better than a typical stand alone PC that uses on-board graphics. SoftXpand also allows for dedicated headsets for each monitor. Can other multiseat computers or thin clients run 6 full screen high res videos with sound at the same time? SoftXpand spreads the cost of the PC components to multiple users so we purchase components on quality rather than price. This helps with the single point of failure problem. Oriel College kept 3 spare units in a cupboard for emergencies but 12 months later they were still sitting there so they brought them into service and now have 18 extra student PCs. Different resellers will have different levels of service so it is difficult for me to quote prices but one school in Leeds who ordered 6 x 6 user SofXpand systems did tell me that for the same budget they would only have been able to purchase 20 conventional PCs. They have also since stated that the SoftXpand systems give a faster user experience than they have been used to. Again you really need to see this for yourself. Some multiseat vendors only quote for the access devices and ignore the cost of the controlling PC. SoftXpand pricing will always include the complete solution which I believe is a fairer way to sell it. You can buy a "Green PC" from most tier one manufacturers that will save you something like 5% of the electricity to run it. This is commendable and I agree with saving electricity but roughly 70% of the carbon footprint of any PC is embedded in the manufacture, so all they are saving is 5% of the remaining 30% which I calculate to be 1.5%. SoftXpand saves a genuine 83% of the carbon footprint of manufacture, packaging, transportation, energy use, heat output, space and land fill. This is why SoftXpand now qualifies for a 0% loan from The Carbon Trust. Sorry but they do not lend to public bodies so this is only good news for private schools. Other multiseat computer vendors choose to quote the carbon footprint of just their access devises which is low and completely ignore the controlling PC. Once again we always look at the complete solution as I consider this to be a fairer comparison. Gartner claims that thin clients only save around 50% of the carbon footprint as a lot of the PC's footprint is just moved from the desktop to the server room. SoftXpand saves 83% on the number of Ethernet ports, cables and switches needed. This does not just save on budget but also on heat and noise in the server room. Using a network splitter cable we have connected 2 x 6 user SoftXpand systems to a single network port. As this was in a primary school where it was customary for 2 students to share one monitor, we also connected two headsets to each monitor. This meant that 24 students were all successfully working off one network port. This was a school in a listed building where cabling would have been expensive. Yes we could have used a small cheap hub, but a splitter cable was cheaper still. SoftXpand will work well with Smart, Prometheon or Hitachi Interactive Whiteboards as one of the 6 users or will connect to Visualisers, Cameras and Microscopes. Basically, whatever you can do with a stand alone desktop PC, you can do 6 times with SoftXpand. To sum up, SoftXpand is cheaper, faster and more reliable than typical desktop computers and saves a massive 83% of your PC carbon footprint. Sounds like a win, win and win again situation to me. Now we come to the really unbelievable bit. With SoftXpand running you can remotely upgrade software while 6 students are still working on the unit. Book a demo if you do not believe me. If all that is not enough SoftXpand includes, at no additional cost, admin tools will allow either a teacher or a remote IT manager to view or interact with any student monitor. There is more but you do really need to see SoftXpand to believe it. If you are still in any doubt, please put a SoftXpand system next to any standard desktop, thin client or other multiseat computer and you will then understand the difference. Sorry Ric if I have gone too far, but I was asked!

Hi David, You will probably notice that I am very new to this forum. I do know that my colleague, Colin was previously banned for trying to sell so I do not want to fall into the same trap. My reason for joining was to try to bring some facts about the licensing issues as the forum had become a rumour mill. I personally believe that SoftXpand is the best value for money but I would not expect you to believe that until you have seen it working. Please give me a call on 01629 700270 and I will see if we can arrange a demonstration for you. Ric, If you want me to answer, I will be more than happy to do so.

Hi DMcCoy and everyone else, I have the feeling that this discussion will go on for ever. Why would anyone want to consider server CALs and multiprocessor licenses when there are no servers involved and there is ony one processor? SoftXpand is not a server. It is a PC, but unlike most PCs where the majority of the electrical power is used to heat up the environment so we can whack up the air conditioning to cool us down again, SoftXpand directs its energy into processing. Unless you have seen softXpand in action and understand how it works it is difficult to understand the reasoning for the single XP license. If you want to find out more you can download a free trial. I think this would answer many of your questions. When I was at school, which is a long time ago, if a teacher asked a pupil a direct question and they refused to answer, it was normally assumed that the student knew he/she was wrong and did not want to admit it. I think Microsoft have been quite vocal by their silence.

Hi Nut-Ed, There is no confusion or un-ease. Microsoft have been aware of SoftXpand for a long time as shown by the quote from Michala Wardle. They know there is no problem with SoftXpand but they are in business for one reason only and that is to make money. Why should they make a statement to say it is ok? I completely understand their silence. Also why do you feel uneasy having multiple users connected to one PC. Microsoft do it with 25 users in MS Multipoint Mouse so if they are happy with this situation, I am happy to be saving a lot of schools a lot of their budget or allowing them to improve their PC to student ratio. Microsoft's job is to maximise their profits just as mine is to maximise the profits of MiniFrame. Schools should not need to be concerned about Microsoft or us; they should be providing the best value for money solutions that will improve the IT teaching in their schools. One head teacher in Derbyshire recently sent the following. "We have now been using SoftXpand for over 2 years. The skills of the children have improved significantly; teachers now plan to use ICT more frequently and we have saved money in so much as we need the ICT technician a lot less. We would recommend people look at this system as we have seen huge benefits in such a short amount of time." This is typical of the comments we receive from our clients.

Hi All, I am the MD of MiniFrameUK and am happy to make this clear as I have nothing to hide. Any of you can "Google" SoftXpand and find my direct phone number if you need clarification on any item. I have recently read this forum and would like to clarify a few points. Ric suggested that sellers should tell end users what licences are required. This we have done consistently since first selling SoftXpand over two years ago, the answer is one copy of XP Pro. Also in answer to Rics post we do not alter the XP operating system, SoftXpand is an application which runs on XP like any other application. XP Pro OEM is a device license and a SoftXpand system has only one device. Like all of you I would love to have a definitive answer from Microsoft but unfortunately this is not forthcoming. There was a quote in this forum that Michaela Wardle from Microsoft stated that she was in touch with MiniFrame but unfortunately this was not true. We at MiniFrame have looked into this issue in great detail and taken extensive legal advice and are 100% convinced that one licence is all that is required. Due to the market penetration of Microsoft, they are considered in law to be in a monopoly situation, and as such are bound by anti trust laws, which state that they must treat the competition in the same way that they would treat their own products. You may remember that they have already paid very large fines in both US and Europe for this very reason. I can however, understand why Microsoft refuse to answer the question, as I believe the only correct answer would not be to their advantage. It may not be a well known application but do look at Microsoft MultiPoint Mouse where 25 students each with their own mouse simultaneously engage on a single PC. Microsoft should not be concerned with SoftXpand, as we have chosen to develop the application based on their operating system rather than on Linux. It is also interesting that they are not losing out. Let me give you an example. We recently installed 6 x 6 user SoftXpand systems into a school in Leeds. As we were leaving, the ICT coordinator informed us that, had they not chosen SoftXpand, they would only have been able to afford PC's for 20 students. In this instance Microsoft have lost the sale of 14 copies of XP, but by supplying 36 copies of Office, instead of the 20 they would have bought Microsoft have gained an extra 16 copies of Office. Microsoft have gained, we have gained, the school has gained and more importantly the pupils have gained. Also because a SoftXpand system saves 83% of the carbon footprint of typical stand alone desktops the whole world has also gained. A number of the head teachers at schools using SoftXpand have commented to me, that due to a more efficient use of ICT within their school this has also improved their Ofsted report. I agree with the Green Organisation that SoftXpand is the ultimate green PC, and this has now been recognised by the Carbon Trust, so that purchases of SoftXpand are now eligible for a Carbon Trust 0% loan. As a grandfather, I would like to leave the world a better place, and I honestly believe that SoftXpand is an IT technological advancement that will help to save the planet from further destruction.