Moving from CC3 to something else?

[CHR1S]

Were looking to ditch CC3 for vanilla here too, same problems as already listed. Over complication of simple tasks that take far too much time to resolve, like shortcuts not appearing when they should or pop settings wiping after a restart. Over inflated hardware and software costs etc etc.

CC3/4 has its place but if you have a full time tech who knows AD you dont need it.

[Guest kerrymoralee9280]

@reggiep: I liked your last post so much it single handedly gave me the motivation to walk to the car, less than 40 yards away, to get my external HDD.

 

The bad news is it wasn't there There was the tiny USB cable that compliments it but no harddrive. I've checked the whole car now, under seats in the boot, nadda. No where to be seen.

 

I have a feeling that when I went to college last night I may have knocked it on the floor getting my books out the back. I just find it strange that the cable is there. I wouldn't take the drive anywhere without the cable so I can only fear the worst.

 

I'll keep on looking and let you know if I find it for those scripts you were after :|

[webman]

We've been happily running an RM CC3 network for five and a half years, and have only contact the support once - to replace a faulty drive that was within the warranty period.

 

It works, and it works well. Most of the time it does what we want, and if it doesn't, we find a way around it.

 

We obviously don't buy our workstations from RM due to cost. But the CCx software package is worth it.

[cookie_monster]

@ kerrymoralee9280: i would just like to say that you were very lucky to get that done in 8 days, if you had run into a seriouse issue you could of been back to square one on day 4. For a migration of this size 'especially' if you aren't too confident in your ability i wouldn't do this outside of the summer hols or as a phased migration it's too difficult to test everything once the migration is done in this amount of time so you're in danger of staff coming back to a 'beta' network which could leave you looking very silly.

[Guest kerrymoralee9280]

@ kerrymoralee9280: i would just like to say that you were very lucky to get that done in 8 days

 

How dare you! Luck had nothing to do with it - it was planned for months. The tiniest detail was planned. It was tested and tested and tested on Virtual Machines. We forced failures on the tests to see what would occur so we could be ready for them. We had plans for every occurance known and what we didn't have planned out, we had backups plans! And you have the balls to turn around and say it was lucky?!

 

I never once said it was easy. I just said it was possible to carry out in a short space of time with the right planning.

[Joanne]

If we were to switch... then we'd probably set up a server and a client on its own domain and getting it how you like it before putting them live.

 

My fella runs a vanilla network and he has a lot more issues than us with stuff like creating packages, allocating software and stuff. If a teacher gives him a disk and wants it for the end of the week he runs round all the computers that they want it on. I click allocate on management console.

 

If one of his machines goes wrong then he has to find the image and restore it... after sysprep and all that stuff. I just click rebuild or restore!!

 

If you like the extra work then go for it. At least you'll have some proper experience!

[cookie_monster]

but was it tested in anger with 400+ users.

 

I'm not insulting your skills, I'm just saying having been through several well planned migrations my self (with and without external experties) i've never had one go completly to plan, or it has seemd to go smoothly but once users start using all of the applications in ways that you hadn't thought of testing cracks can start to appear.

I'm sorry but this sort of mass migration is never attempted in bussiness because they know the pitfalls, unfortunatly as we know in our situation it is sometimes unavoidable.

Edited April 29, 2008 by cookie_monster

[DMcCoy]

but was it tested in anger with 400+ users.

 

I'm not insulting your skills, I'm just saying having been through several well planned migrations my self (with and without external experties) i've never had one go completly to plan, or it has seemd to go smoothly but once users start using all of the applications in ways that you hadn't thought of testing cracks can start to appear.

 

Sometimes it's just going to be managing the risk rather than never taking any. Any project can fail, no matter who's doing it - even if you had RM in to convert from vanilla they can still scew something up so it's hardly any different.

[cookie_monster]

Yep and that's what we have always done i just feel that more potential troubleshooting time could of been planned.

 

Anyway as stated i'm not undermining kerrymoralee9280's skill level i'm more trying to point out that we're in danger of giving reggiep the impression that this can be done quickly and as they seem unsure i'd recommend as much time as possible.

[reggiep]

@reggiep: I liked your last post so much it single handedly gave me the motivation to walk to the car, less than 40 yards away, to get my external HDD.

 

The bad news is it wasn't there There was the tiny USB cable that compliments it but no harddrive. I've checked the whole car now, under seats in the boot, nadda. No where to be seen.

 

I have a feeling that when I went to college last night I may have knocked it on the floor getting my books out the back. I just find it strange that the cable is there. I wouldn't take the drive anywhere without the cable so I can only fear the worst.

 

I'll keep on looking and let you know if I find it for those scripts you were after :|

 

I hope you find it again. I hat losing drives like that. I constantly save important stuff onto USB pen drives and lose them within 5 minutes.

[russdev]

We don't bother using the RM support here, take a look at your logged calls and try to work out how many of these problems would not have occured on a vanilla system.

 

I pretty sure you will find that most of your logged calls will be asking for solutions/fixes for their fisher price mananagment tools.

 

does anyone remember their password syncing system to enable you to run 2.4 and cc3 at the same time, what a croc and a bad way to integrate two systems.

 

 

Again you under this impression every is same as you :-) No most of our calls are not like that at all.

 

But then depends on your job as said I am sole person here and couldn't do my job with out support of RM as while I have the technical knowledge I haven't got time as we as a school are involved in so much.

 

Anyway as said we will agree to disagree as this thread has gone way off topic.

 

Now got to go and phone boss of eclipse to have nag at him

 

Russ

[Grommit]

Out of interest what do you not like about CC3?

 

Butuz

 

'cause it's for babies

[Jose]

just out of interest what sort of questions/support do you ask RM for if its not to do with their malware.

 

I love it when someone claims that it save them time, how does it save time, please give us examples.

 

2 hour complete rebuild time with cc3

30-40 minutes max with WDS (free)

 

nansy pansying around with user/station types with limited options to edit.

 

create your own GPOs in minutes with your own custom registry files etc.

 

Theres no contest to me,

its quicker to deploy Pcs with vanilla if you know your arse from your elbow,

Gpos are easy to get the hang off.

 

I know opinions are different, but these money savings that CC3 fans talk about are really only relevent if your dealing with old tech staff or single mums from primary backgrounds.

Its important to realise that secondary schools have come a long way over the last few years and due to tlrs most schools have decent support.

[webman]

I love it when someone claims that it save them time, how does it save time, please give us examples.

 

2 hour complete rebuild time with cc3

30-40 minutes max with WDS (free)

 

Or 5-10 minutes with local HD images on CC3.

 

nansy pansying around with user/station types with limited options to edit.

 

create your own GPOs in minutes with your own custom registry files etc.

 

Hmm - configuring pre-made templates on CC3; or creating your own in text files, referencing registry keys and then configuring them. I know which one is quicker and it's not the latter.

 

Theres no contest to me,

 

Good for you. For others that might not be so true.

[reggiep]

30-40 minutes max with WDS (free)

 

Do you have any good tips or website links for WDS?

 

I never got round to using it as I always went for the easier (at the time) ghost option?

[Jose]

Do you have any good tips or website links for WDS?

 

I never got round to using it as I always went for the easier (at the time) ghost option?

 

Try this

midteq - Windows Deployment Services (WDS)

 

its great it took me over 2 hours to get it perfect but now rocks,

the best tip I would give is when testing it for the first few times use PCs that have supported nic cards in them as you don't want to be trying advanced wim editing while your still learning.

2. plug the test PC straight into the core switch, as some switches do not support the pxe booting and multicasting.

3. make sure dhcp server is on the same server as wds or you will need to configure the switch to forward packets to both.

 

give it go, you will not regret it

[reggiep]

@Jose

 

Thanks for that, I will give that a good read tomorrow when I'm sure I'll have less work on, sigh. I wish!

[Jose]

Or 5-10 minutes with local HD images on CC3.QUOTE]

 

The restore images are great but if you want changes to take place that are not on the restore image then its not relevent.

For example say you decide to deploy the latest sevice release/pack for a system, with CC3 you normally have to rebuild with other systems you just deploy it and its done.

 

Please, please tell me where it saves time

[webman]

Or 5-10 minutes with local HD images on CC3

 

The restore images are great but if you want changes to take place that are not on the restore image then its not relevent.

For example say you decide to deploy the latest sevice release/pack for a system, with CC3 you normally have to rebuild with other systems you just deploy it and its done.

 

Please, please tell me where it saves time

 

Whoa, did you just say something from RM was great?

 

Anyway, in that case, I deploy the package and re-image when convenient. On some machines we don't bother creating restore images - we just leave it [the image] as the default XP setup. If the machines goes pear-shaped then we just restore - all that needs to be done then is to install packages. Which is usually 30-60 minutes depending on network traffic, amount/size of packages allocated at the location. Using local restore images also reduces unnecessary network traffic.

 

It saves time because the procedure is quick; it saves time because we haven't had to set anything else up for it to work, it saves time because we haven't had to learn an additional procedure; and it saves time because we don't have to mess on creating a standard image first for each individual and different types of hardware we have.

Edited April 29, 2008 by webman

[sparkeh]

I always find this anti-RM animosity very curious. " 'cause its for babies"? Please.

 

I have to run both CC3 and Vanilla domain at separate sites. There are advantages to both but to be honest I have far less trouble with CC3. Plus sales and support have always been good to us so I just dont recognise some of the stuff being talked about above.

[Guest kerrymoralee9280]

My fella runs a vanilla network and he has a lot more issues than us with stuff like creating packages

 

Erm, use the same stuff RM uses - it's not theirs, and is free I believe.

 

allocating software. If a teacher gives him a disk and wants it for the end of the week he runs round all the computers that they want it on. I click allocate on management console.

 

He must his exercise because most 'lazy' techs would simply allocate the package via GPO. Again, RM did not invent this technology, they simply jumped on the band wagon.

 

If one of his machines goes wrong then he has to find the image and restore it... after sysprep and all that stuff. I just click rebuild or restore!!

 

With the right version of ghost I think you'll find you can build machines so much easier than you can with RM stuff.

 

If you like the extra work then go for it. At least you'll have some proper experience!

 

Yes, generally there is extra work but you WILL see the benefits straight away! Like as in actually being able to do what YOU want with YOUR network.

 

i'm more trying to point out that we're in danger of giving reggiep the impression that this can be done quickly and as they seem unsure i'd recommend as much time as possible.

 

Point taken on board - it's not as difficult as everyone is making out but it certainly is time consuming. Do it in the 6 weeks.

 

it saves time because we don't have to mess on creating a standard image first for each individual and different types of hardware we have.

 

Fair enough, but as part of these images you can install regular apps too like Office. How long does that take to install on CC3? If you image it here with it on along with dozens of other apps that are used everyday - isn't that a time saver too?

 

I'm sorry but this sort of mass migration is never attempted in bussiness because they know the pitfalls

 

True, because most business's (and I mean proper ones) are on Vanilla networks so why would they want to change. Theres not many '3rd party managed' business networks about.

 

Now if you ask me, a school network can be and is many times bigger than a lot of business networks - why should we sacrifice? Is our data not as critical? Can we afford to have machines pick up random RM bugs because their SR or hotfixes haven't been tested?!

[webman]

Yes, generally there is extra work but you WILL see the benefits straight away! Like as in actually being able to do what YOU want with YOUR network.

 

I don't see what you're getting at here. We can do what we want with our network anyway. It's ours, we've paid for it. We simply use RM software to make our lives easier and we do not find it restricitve at all. I don't see why that is so hard for people to believe.

 

Fair enough, but as part of these images you can install regular apps too like Office. How long does that take to install on CC3? If you image it here with it on along with dozens of other apps that are used everyday - isn't that a time saver too?

 

MS Office is a standard package, so it installs when we build a new machine or when the image doesn't have it in. But as previously said, once a machine has the OS installed and all packages we want - we can create a local HD image which can be restored in 5-10 minutes.

 

Can we afford to have machines pick up random RM bugs because their SR or hotfixes haven't been tested?!

 

Erm... Any piece of software can introduce new bugs. If you seriously lived by your methodology you'd probably be running exclusively OpenBSD.

[Guest kerrymoralee9280]

I don't see what you're getting at here. We can do what we want with our network anyway. It's ours, we've paid for it. We simply use RM software to make our lives easier and we do not find it restricitve at all. I don't see why that is so hard for people to believe.

 

Believe me - I'm not saying this blind. I've managed CC3 networks for 4 years and Vanilla for about 2. I have some level of experience in both and I know which i prefer. I know how restrictive RM stuff is because I've seen both stories for myself. Have you?

[webman]

No, I've not worked with a vanilla network. But I have worked with CC3 for five years. Both I and Bossman have never found it restrictive.

[Guest coquet636]

Believe me - I'm not saying this blind. I've managed CC3 networks for 4 years and Vanilla for about 2. I have some level of experience in both and I know which i prefer. I know how restrictive RM stuff is because I've seen both stories for myself. Have you?

 

Got to agree here, I had CC3 for 4 years and although I liked it, and it worked, I still felt that moving to a vanilla would be so much better, and it has proved to be. Using Ghost i can rebuilt a machine in 20 mins, Whereas rebuild on cc3 with quickest machine was an hour an 10 mins...(i know poor network running at 100mbps was to blame, but same network does the 20mins ghosting)

 

It doesnt take long to setup either, just buy your new server early, and do the tasks as time permits.. ( dont laugh)... and come the 6 weeks ghost the machines and job done.....