Freedom of Information request

[bmaloney]

No it wouldn't. The issue is not with clicking a link but with clicking a link to an unknown site. We know and trust Google Forms. We neither know nor trust your website.

So where is this list of known sites and how do I get on it? Fact is there isn't one and anyone can object to any site, Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. if they are not already using it.

That's your problem, not mine. Also, you can view the responses to Google Forms in Google Sheets or CSV, where you can add further manipulation as needed.

It was my problem, I solved it with a form. I'm now going to solve it again with automatic checking and reporting of errors, back to the person who made the error.

[enjay]

So where is this list of known sites and how do I get on it? Fact is there isn't one and anyone can object to any site, Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. if they are not already using it.

 

Did I say there was a list?

 

Our staff have experience of completing surveys via Google Forms and Survey Monkey, so know these sites are safe. Also even without this experience, people have at least heard of Google and likely Survey Monkey, which gives those sites an added level of trust above something which is clearly a personal domain belonging to the sender.

[djrscally]

So where is this list of known sites and how do I get on it? Fact is there isn't one and anyone can object to any site, Facebook, Twitter, Google, etc. if they are not already using it.

 

It was my problem, I solved it with a form. I'm now going to solve it again with automatic checking and reporting of errors, back to the person who made the error.

Come on, it's daft to insist that there's not a difference between your personal website and websites that everybody already knows and trusts. Obviously Google Forms are more trusted than your site; insisting otherwise is just deliberate awkwardness.

 

You haven't solved your problems with a form; people will very reasonably reject that for security reasons, I guarantee it.

[mavhc]

Of course you can't trust a link in an html email, could be obscured.

[Ditto]

Come on, it's daft to insist that there's not a difference between your personal website and websites that everybody already knows and trusts. Obviously Google Forms are more trusted than your site; insisting otherwise is just deliberate awkwardness.

You haven't solved your problems with a form; people will very reasonably reject that for security reasons, I guarantee it.

It's good advice, please at least consider it. In terms of validation, Google Forms does have some and there are add-ons that an take it further. And areal big plus - there's a whole community of Edugeekers here willing to help with any technical issues.

[Edutech98]

Given all the decision notices that I’ve read on the Information Rights website that share a common theme, I’d put money on it that this will eventually turn into a vexatious request and at some point you will be back at the tribunal arguing that it’s not.

[bmaloney]

OK, if someone on this list want to do the work using a Google Form, I'll give them the list of school contact details for schools who have not yet replied and you can give me the results, if it's really that easy and you can guarantee schools will have to respond. Any volunteers?

[DODICT]

Have you not got enough responses to support your argument and spend your time trying to bring about change rather than a seemingly endless battle around the the technicalities of making a FOI request.

 

forgive me but I thought you were fighting for parental rights - surely you can recognise spending your time arguing with schools over what defines a known source isnt helping any parent anywhere, ever ?

 

A motivated individual with simply a cause and a voice can achieve a lot and I don't see how getting 1000's of responses rather than 100's etc strengthens an argument that we all know can supported by a indicative response from a sample of schools.

 

If Nivea or similar can sell millions of products across the nation based on 74% of responses of 102 people saying their skin was softer I'm thinking you maybe dont need every school in England to respond to lobby your original point ?!

 

But that's my issue now - your motivation seems to be focused on 'defeating' these awkward schools rather than your apparent cause.

 

Unsubscribing from thread - nothing new or constructive is being generated here. . .

[enjay]

OK, if someone on this list want to do the work using a Google Form, I'll give them the list of school contact details for schools who have not yet replied and you can give me the results, if it's really that easy and you can guarantee schools will have to respond. Any volunteers?

 

You really do want the schools to do all the work for you, don't you!

 

Try this - https://zapier.com/learn/google-sheets/how-to-use-google-forms/ I think you'll have a Google Form ready to send to schools within an hour. The data will come back into a Google Sheet, complete with simple analysis (graphs, pie charts and the like) or you could pull it into Excel or your own database if you prefer.

[DJ-1701]

OK, if someone on this list want to do the work using a Google Form, I'll give them the list of school contact details for schools who have not yet replied and you can give me the results, if it's really that easy and you can guarantee schools will have to respond. Any volunteers?

 

You really do want the schools to do all the work for you, don't you!

 

Also with the request for 'volunteers', it would be for £0.00.

 

Something comes to mind...

 

Edited April 19, 2018 by DJ-1701

[enjay]

Try this - https://zapier.com/learn/google-sheets/how-to-use-google-forms/ I think you'll have a Google Form ready to send to schools within an hour. The data will come back into a Google Sheet, complete with simple analysis (graphs, pie charts and the like) or you could pull it into Excel or your own database if you prefer.

 

I should have used this URL LMGTFY

I love the "Let Me Google This For You" site when making points like this.

[sparkeh]

PDF forms, for reasons outlined above, will mean we are going round in a circle and doesn't seem particularly productive.

 

Anyone engaging in a large scale FOI request needs to be prepared to put in a bit of the legwork.

Anyone who genuinely cares about the issue they are investigating would be prepared to put in the legwork.

[localzuk]

I think there's one thing you haven't considered here @bmaloney. What you are doing is gathering data. Any statistician will tell you that there is no such thing as perfect data. So, regardless of the method you are using your data will always have some flaws. The key is to accept that, calculate the margin of error and work with what you've got.

 

You say you've got thousands of responses back already? Your sample size is more than enough to start analysing. Unless you specifically want to analyse by region?

 

I suppose what I'm trying to say is - I don't understand your continuing battle over the technicalities of requesting data. You've had multiple suggestions on how to get data. You have found fault with pretty much all of them, based on the extra work it'll create for you. The simple fact is, if you want data from every school you contact, then it is going to be a lot of work to deal with!

[bmaloney]

PDF forms, for reasons outlined above, will mean we are going round in a circle and doesn't seem particularly productive.

 

Anyone engaging in a large scale FOI request needs to be prepared to put in a bit of the legwork.

Anyone who genuinely cares about the issue they are investigating would be prepared to put in the legwork.

 

Of course, since 2016 I haven't put in any effort, developing the website, the forms, the data validation, the email responses, collecting the list of contact details, correcting the ones who have changed their email address, collating and plotting the results is me not doing any work. Taking the matter to the ICO and then to appeal took no time at all, and after the Tribunal decided schools cannot be compelled to click on a link in an email you're all suggesting I send them a link in an email, just make it Google Forms, everyone will respond to that.

 

When I point out the problems and ask someone to show me, on a small sample, that I'm wrong and everyone will immediately reply to a Google Forms link in an email, even if the data cannot be checked for consistency without learning javascript and the Google Sheets API, literally nobody offers to show me I'm wrong.

[enjay]

When I point out the problems and ask someone to show me, on a small sample, that I'm wrong and everyone will immediately reply to a Google Forms link in an email, even if the data cannot be checked for consistency without learning javascript and the Google Sheets API, literally nobody offers to show me I'm wrong.

 

Firstly, no need to learn Javascript of Google Sheets API to analyse the data; Google Sheets normal view or Excel can do that, as can your own database if you import the contents of the Sheet into that.

 

Secondly, lots of people have already told you this.

 

Thirdly, your request for help (and let's disregard the tone in which you asked it) was for volunteers. Make us a financial offer, and someone might consider helping you with the Google Form (although you'll note I've already done that for free, with the link I posted)

 

As others have said, it really does seem like your interest here is in arguing with people, not with affecting change for a cause.

[pubgrub277]

Have you not considered that much of this information is also held by local authorities in central pupil databases (such as Capita ONE) and you could be collecting the same data from them?

Would contacting an LEA (and their often dedicated teams designed to respond to FOI and data queries) by a few hundred not be better than thousands of schools?

 

Given you seem adamant that you're correct in all of your assertions to this point, would you even consider a change of tack?

Edited April 19, 2018 by pubgrub277

[sparkeh]

Of course, since 2016 I haven't put in any effort, developing the website, the forms, the data validation, the email responses, collecting the list of contact details, correcting the ones who have changed their email address, collating and plotting the results is me not doing any work. Taking the matter to the ICO and then to appeal took no time at all, and after the Tribunal decided schools cannot be compelled to click on a link in an email you're all suggesting I send them a link in an email, just make it Google Forms, everyone will respond to that.

 

When I point out the problems and ask someone to show me, on a small sample, that I'm wrong and everyone will immediately reply to a Google Forms link in an email, even if the data cannot be checked for consistency without learning javascript and the Google Sheets API, literally nobody offers to show me I'm wrong.

Then I suggest you are expending your effort in the wrong direction. All that effort has been to produce and defend a system that resulted in an invalid request for data.

 

It would have been more productive to listen to what people have been telling you, produce a valid request and expend your efforts in analysing the data. It suggests the finer point of the collection mechanism is more important the point behind the collection in the first place.

I fear that you are now heading off in exactly the same direction that will result in the same destination. People are trying to help you here

Edited April 19, 2018 by sparkeh

[bmaloney]

Then I suggest you are expending your effort in the wrong direction. All that effort has been to produce and defend a system that resulted in an invalid request for data.

 

It would have been more productive to listen to what people have been telling you, produce a valid request and expend your efforts in analysing the data. It suggests the finer point of the collection mechanism is more important the point behind the collection in the first place.

I fear that you are now heading off in exactly the same direction that will result in the same destination. People are trying to help you here

 

Then show me, on a small sample, that your proposal actually works? Because it sounds to me like it has the same problems you've all been complaining about, i.e. a link in an email to a website which schools don't usually use.

[djrscally]

Then show me, on a small sample, that your proposal actually works? Because it sounds to me like it has the same problems you've all been complaining about, i.e. a link in an email to a website which schools don't usually use.

 

You're ignoring the fact that Google Forms IS a trusted website, and yours is not.

[enjay]

Then show me, on a small sample, that your proposal actually works? Because it sounds to me like it has the same problems you've all been complaining about, i.e. a link in an email to a website which schools don't usually use.

 

Asked and answered - Google Forms!

[Edutech98]

 

When I point out the problems and ask someone to show me, on a small sample, that I'm wrong and everyone will immediately reply to a Google Forms link in an email, even if the data cannot be checked for consistency without learning javascript and the Google Sheets API, literally nobody offers to show me I'm wrong.

 

No one it saying if you make it on Google Forms everyone will immediately reply. We are giving you some suggestions on how we think you could get a better success rate because your new method is similar to the old method.

 

If you want to carry on with your new method, go ahead, but we think you will have the same issue. We think this because we work in schools. You've got insider knowledge, it's up to you if you want to utilise it we can't force you.

[localzuk]

Then show me, on a small sample, that your proposal actually works? Because it sounds to me like it has the same problems you've all been complaining about, i.e. a link in an email to a website which schools don't usually use.

This has been covered by multiple people. Google, a multi-billion dollar international company, used by governments, local authorities, schools, lawyers, etc... Is as trusted as you can get. Whereas, your own site, unheard of by anyone but you until you tell someone about it, is not trusted. Surely this isn't difficult to understand?

[sparkeh]

Then show me, on a small sample, that your proposal actually works? Because it sounds to me like it has the same problems you've all been complaining about, i.e. a link in an email to a website which schools don't usually use.

Ok here's a thought experiment to walk you through it.

 

Scenario 1

Member of staff responsible for FOI requests gets a FOI request asking for responses to be submitted at https://www.anunknownwebsite.com

"Hey," they think "I'm not supposed to click unknown links due to our IT AUP, so this can be rejected due to safety concerns as confirmed by that recent ICO appeal ruling"

 

Scenario 2

Member of staff responsible for FOI requests gets a FOI request asking for responses to be submitted at https://docs.google.com/someFOIform

"Hey," they think "that's a Google Docs URL so its a reasonable assumption that its safe so I will collect the data and submit our responses as per our responsibilities via the FOIA"

Edited April 19, 2018 by sparkeh

[bmaloney]

Go on then, show me it works.

[Edutech98]

@sparkeh has laid it out to you. You need to work smarter, not harder.