Cloud only school?

[Luke_T]

Could this be a workable solution do you think?

 

- Robust / Redundant Internet

- BYOD - enforced AV, e-safety monitory, Internet filtering, enforced security policies

- Office 365 / G suite - apps installed for auto syncing

- Printers - web based?

- Backup Devices - for when BYOD device inevitably fails (possibly chromebooks?)

- MIS, HR, Finance, Digital Signage, Website, VLE, Helpdesk etc services all online

- Backup / Disaster Recovery - this would involve taking things off the cloud regularly?

 

The biggest stumbling block aside form not wanting to be reliant on 3rd parties for core services ... was:

 

- Specific software for departments, eg: Music software, DT CAD, etc ...

- Specific hardware for departments, eg: Science sensors, Music keyboards, etc...

 

Most, but not all of that software could be installed on an offsite virtual machine farm ...

 

Anyway, I'm looking for other stumbling blocks, things that could be missed when considering this ... and potential benefits I guess.

 

I all came about from the question of what might you do differently with IT services if you were to found a new school today (a physical not virtual one).

 

Thanks!

Edited July 13, 2017 by Luke_T

[synaesthesia]

You will need something local regardless; web based printers would be a no go on their own, wireless would need management on site generally or the means to connect to it, the 3rd party software you mention, reporting to 3rd parties, exam boards etc. You mention auto syncing, but to what? If there's computers on site you'll need something locally regardless of an ideal world scenario; you dont want thinks syncing to individual PCs and you don't want AzureAD or similar being solely responsible for your network. I've looked into it quite a lot on behalf of a school I help out and it would be hard to quantify going down that route; even with a pair of leased lines with different suppliers, the school is then immediately too open to outside interference and should that occur, what happens internally?

Everything is moving in that direction indeed, but it should IMO be there to supplement, not to replace. Not yet, it's just not ready.

[sted]

youd probably want to throw in a terminal server in there for legacy stuff and if you want that to be single sign on with their gmail/office365 accounts youd probably need a dc as well (tbh just to run a ts youre probably going to need a dc) and once you have a dc you can soon use that as a print host though again im not sure how welt that would work with random non domained devices you could get cloud reasy printers then chrome/chromebooks should find them but I cant believe its as simple as it sounds

[Rob_D]

You mention music and CAD, add in art and photography, and you've potentially got some big files that will have to be down/uploaded into the cloud. Our music suite still has some latency problems trying to record edit to onsite servers.

That and (probably) data protection mean you'll probably need some onsite storage.

[just_david]

I looked into this and think for a secondary its not really dooable - to many specific apps like autocad or adobe needed to go fully cloud

 

For a primary it could work - if you ditched Microsoft Desktops

 

Ipads - a MDM - and hosted sims, cloud wireless controller, wifi printing (or even no printing at all)

 

Only problem was finance... i'm not aware of any decent ipad finance management for schools

 

the best part is it would be fully gdpr compliant as ipads are encrypted by default.

 

a cloud lite version could work with a small file server on site hosting AD and using something like foldr for remote access and a few local services (e.g. the finance software)

 

some fag packet maths and the savings on servers and subscriptions would almost pay for a 1:1 ipad deployment in a small primary

 

I think it could work on google devices too but not sure how secure they are (i've never worked with chromebooks, no idea about thier capabilities)

[TwistedHelixis]

The community college near me went Google back in 2009, way ahead of the rest of us. They still needed some windows machines for MIS, DHCP etc. Back then they ran Google from windows machines but moved over to chrome devices for staff and pupils a couple of years ago.

 

Not sure how its going but it is kind of possible.

[Roberto]

Could this be a workable solution do you think?

 

- Robust / Redundant Internet

- BYOD - enforced AV, e-safety monitory, Internet filtering, enforced security policies

- Office 365 / G suite - apps installed for auto syncing

- Printers - web based?

- Backup Devices - for when BYOD device inevitably fails (possibly chromebooks?)

- MIS, HR, Finance, Digital Signage, Website, VLE, Helpdesk etc services all online

- Backup / Disaster Recovery - this would involve taking things off the cloud regularly?

 

The biggest stumbling block aside form not wanting to be reliant on 3rd parties for core services ... was:

 

- Specific software for departments, eg: Music software, DT CAD, etc ...

- Specific hardware for departments, eg: Science sensors, Music keyboards, etc...

 

Most, but not all of that software could be installed on an offsite virtual machine farm ...

 

Anyway, I'm looking for other stumbling blocks, things that could be missed when considering this ... and potential benefits I guess.

 

I all came about from the question of what might you do differently with IT services if you were to found a new school today (a physical not virtual one).

 

Thanks!

 

I'd suggest the idea of wanting end users to supply BYOD devices that you're going to lock down as if they were the organisation's devices won't fly with everyone. It certainly wouldn't with me. Remember BYOD is "Bring Your Own Device", not "Buy Your Organisation's Devices".

 

I think this could work on a greenfield site if you went with the organisation providing Chromebooks or iPads or similar from the get-go.

What would be the objective for all this? I can see the attraction for a MAT for not hosting everything locally on one or two of its sites in order to ensure that the whole MAT doesn't lose access to a shared resource if something goes down but you are going to be moving from a huge capex spend (to buy traditional servers and workstations) to a huge opex spend for the services you're buying in, along with a serious capex spend on network infrastructure to provide a robust enough LAN to support this kind of set-up.

 

I think I'd go for a hybrid approach; there are some things that might benefit the staff and students more from being hosted on-site, and some things I certainly wouldn't expect to see hosted on-site these days except for legacy installations... email is an obvious case in point where I don't care how good someone is at hosting Exchange for themselves, Microsoft are going to be even better at it, and google better than all of us at hosting non-exchange email.

[rogerdnixon]

We are largely Cloud-based (G Suite) now and have been for some time. However, as others have stated, there are things that get in the way - Solidworks, Adobe Premier and Sibelius. I'm workign on these as there are increasingly good alternatives online.

 

For the server side of things, you still need DNS/DHCP (we use ClearOS now) and a Print Server really (Papercut offering manage Cloud Printing - which you could run on Linux). We also have locally hosted SIMS still which is useful for running scheduled reports for syncing to Google Classroom. However, WiFI management is cloud based - Aerohive, Filtering - Securly and most document/file storage.

 

The big advantage other than cost is that it abstracts people away for the "school network" and works on any device anywhere. However, to be 100% cloud based (other than basic network services) is still a way off for use - give it a few years!

[Lonix]

Some have already covered it here. You're going to need physical equipment on site for something.

 

Our current printer supplier although is compatible with cloud printing (we use it) it still needs a physical server on site and it's requirements Windows Server.

Our MIS currently is internally hosted (although they are developing web based one).

Our data could be cloud based which we are reviewing but we have large amounts of data. Some of which is GB in file sizes due to certain departments (film/music) so we have a NAS box for this. It isn't feasible for this going cloud.

Office Live - is a yes

G Suite - is a yes

 

Our Finance software and endless amount of Dept software is a no.

 

Problem is when you start thinking about "keeping" stuff internally you require servers. You require a Windows/ setup (only some of which can be Linux).

 

You've got to ask your self does the gains cover the costs, changes etc (training, new software costs, outsourcing facilities). At a time when budgets are right some times changing is the worst thing you can do.

 

As mentioned we are reviewing cloud. Currently looking at online storage etc and we will probably consider 1 year at a time. There's also heavy broadband implications. The network which is currently 1GB with bits of 10GB will be resorting to what? a 100MB connection. We had a 100MB network once and it was very very very very slow.

[Guest MD5T]

Sorry to rain on your parade but this is just asking for trouble.

[Luke_T]

The community college near me went Google back in 2009, way ahead of the rest of us. They still needed some windows machines for MIS, DHCP etc. Back then they ran Google from windows machines but moved over to chrome devices for staff and pupils a couple of years ago.

 

Not sure how its going but it is kind of possible.

 

Can you tell me which community college that is? I'm curious how far schools may have gotten with this.

 

Thanks

[dhicks]

- Robust / Redundant Internet

- BYOD - enforced AV, e-safety monitory, Internet filtering, enforced security policies

- Office 365 / G suite - apps installed for auto syncing

- Printers - web based?

- Backup Devices - for when BYOD device inevitably fails (possibly chromebooks?)

- MIS, HR, Finance, Digital Signage, Website, VLE, Helpdesk etc services all online

- Backup / Disaster Recovery - this would involve taking things off the cloud regularly?

 

The biggest stumbling block aside form not wanting to be reliant on 3rd parties for core services ... was:

 

- Specific software for departments, eg: Music software, DT CAD, etc ...

- Specific hardware for departments, eg: Science sensors, Music keyboards, etc...

 

Most, but not all of that software could be installed on an offsite virtual machine farm ...

 

I think a lot of what I'd have written has already been covered in previous posts, just specifics about some of your above points:

 

Internet: The service you can get is going to depend on your location. We're in central London, with access to various fibre connections, and have found our fibre-based Internet connection to be very reliable for the past 2 years. Don't forget latency as a factor - as well as bandwidth you'll need short response-times to web-based applications. We use an ISP that has peering connections with Amazon / Google / Azure, so anything hosted on those platforms should have minimal response times.

 

Auto-syncing - I've not tried Google's file streaming yet as it's still in early-access preview mode, but that sound like the kind of thing you'd be aiming for. Seems to be at the almost-there-but-not-quite stage at the moment.

 

Printers (and wireless): you can manage them via nice cloud-based consoles, but you'll need some kind of on-site gateway. You shouldn't need anything too fancy, and not the kind of hardware that needs to sit in a dedicated air-conditioned room, but something you could shove out of the way in a network cabinet somewhere.

 

Backup Devices - we've got on very well so far with Chromebooks. For BYOD devices, there are management applications that let the device be managed in-school and free-to-use when the pupil gets home.

 

MIS / HR / Finance / etc - if there's not a god web-based application, then running via remote desktop to a cloud-based virtual desktop is probably your best bet. That can, initially, seem expensive as you're paying per minute for processing time. However, if you factor in not needing to hire someone to support on-site hardware you're still making a saving (although if you 're the chap the school doesn't have to hire to support on-site hardware then you've just automated yourself out of a job...).

 

Back / disaster recovery - I'd still want some kind of on-site copy of all our files, just in case Google or whatever have a change of mind one day and start charging for storage or something. Again, this needn't be anything that needs that much on-site support - a 2U rack server stuffed full of SSDs should be able to be sat in a network cabinet with no dedicated cooling, and could sit and sync all your files from cloud storage to a local copy, just in case.

 

Specific hardware / software for departments: cloud-based virtual desktops might work better than you might think. Not for video editing, maybe, but Photoshop / Indesign might be usable.

 

Music keyboards, in particular, are actually easier to handle - you can now get nice USB-only ones that are powered via USB, you just plug them in to a Chromebook and start playing, there's no separate power supply needed.

[Julian]

We are largely Cloud-based (G Suite) now and have been for some time. However, as others have stated, there are things that get in the way - Solidworks, Adobe Premier and Sibelius. I'm workign on these as there are increasingly good alternatives online.

 

For the server side of things, you still need DNS/DHCP (we use ClearOS now) and a Print Server really (Papercut offering manage Cloud Printing - which you could run on Linux). We also have locally hosted SIMS still which is useful for running scheduled reports for syncing to Google Classroom. However, WiFI management is cloud based - Aerohive, Filtering - Securly and most document/file storage.

 

The big advantage other than cost is that it abstracts people away for the "school network" and works on any device anywhere. However, to be 100% cloud based (other than basic network services) is still a way off for use - give it a few years!

 

Two questions,

 

How many users do you have?

How fast is your internet connection?

[mavhc]

3rd question: Why? You've not said why this will be better for your students and teachers.

[rogerdnixon]

Two questions,

 

How many users do you have?

How fast is your internet connection?

 

In total Staff + Students about 1200. We have a 1Gbit Virgin Media Leased line - not as expensive as you might think and probably over kill atm as we don't often hit over 200Mb/s at peak times unless its a football match!

[rogerdnixon]

3rd question: Why? You've not said why this will be better for your students and teachers.

 

They have devices that work all the time and they login in seconds - zero hassle - ChromeOS. They can access their stuff anywhere and on any device - "Everyone Learning Everywhere" is our 1:1 strapline. Seamless collaboration and working independent of where you are or what you are on. Classroom - simple collaboration - student -teacher - parents. Unlimited storage. Unlimited versioning of files. Everything archived in Vault. Moving to G Suite (now many years ago) and being largely cloud based has had a massively positive impact on all aspects of the school.

 

Going back to a "tranditional" setup would feel very alien and limiting now.

[TwistedHelixis]

Can you tell me which community college that is? I'm curious how far schools may have gotten with this.

 

Thanks

 

PM sent

[mavhc]

They have devices that work all the time and they login in seconds - zero hassle - ChromeOS. They can access their stuff anywhere and on any device - "Everyone Learning Everywhere" is our 1:1 strapline. Seamless collaboration and working independent of where you are or what you are on. Classroom - simple collaboration - student -teacher - parents. Unlimited storage. Unlimited versioning of files. Everything archived in Vault. Moving to G Suite (now many years ago) and being largely cloud based has had a massively positive impact on all aspects of the school.

 

Going back to a "traditional" setup would feel very alien and limiting now.

 

Sounds good. Do you find any limitations with higher end work, video/photo/music production? 3d modelling.

 

I assume you have a few windows machines around, how do you integrate them? Still run 1 windows server? Looks like Drive Stream will make that better. Would be interesting to see Google make a local server that allows windows machines to auth with GSuite. Wonder if Win 10 Azure AD join would work with a 3rd party cloud directory instead.

 

Or an RDP from ChromeOS? 1 server, 0 Windows clients.

 

One of my chromebook annoyances is limited lifetime of support, seems wasteful to replace laptops every x years, when my non chromebook laptop can continue running the latest windows, although slowly, or linux.

 

Does look from https://support.google.com/chrome/a/answer/6220366?hl=en like there are some with 6 year lifespans, which is better.

[rogerdnixon]

We still have some Windows clients - so in Media and Music for eg - but better cloud alternatives are becoming popular. Now that Android Apps are here - there are loads more options.

 

Most of our Windows PCs are just used for Chrome most of the time. Staff can use Ericom AccessNow to do SIMS on a Chromebook.

 

ChromeOS devices have gone to a 6 year cycle - however, we now have devices beyond this that still work fine and get updates - Samsung series 5's.

[david_1152]

Yes - interesting. BUT. Was the initial question how would you design a school system if you had a blank piece of paper. A new system from the ground up.

 

For me - yes you cant avoid the cloud but I wouldnt go down BYOD - for me it's asking for trouble. I feel our tech guys would spend an increasing amount of time trying to mend students equipment.

 

Yes Chromebooks are interesting but limiting.

 

I think the whole answer lies between the lines. Traditional infrastructure, PC's in admin running MIS and finance, backed up and maintained in house. Known data location for student and staff records - SLT always love that.

 

Cloud based storage for students to access and use at home and school. 365 or Google running and delivering 90% of the schools needs. The other 10% via Client PC running the software you have to.

 

Not much of a design I'll grant you, but that's where we are (in my opinion) we're still not ready for a total solution. If I had to do something now - designing a new free school or something (not primary) this is how I'd do it. Give it 3 years.

 

Again - just my opinion.

 

Dave.

[bennz]

Direct Connect with App Stream 2.0, It is the future.

[mavhc]

Direct Connect with App Stream 2.0, It is the future.

 

Isn't that just amazon's clone of RDP's more advanced features?

[bennz]

Isn't that just amazon's clone of RDP's more advanced features?

Essentially yes, moving more services to the cloud is all about reducing cost, proving high availability when you need it and shifting the heavy lifting else where.

[mavhc]

Yes - interesting. BUT. Was the initial question how would you design a school system if you had a blank piece of paper. A new system from the ground up.

 

For me - yes you cant avoid the cloud but I wouldnt go down BYOD - for me it's asking for trouble. I feel our tech guys would spend an increasing amount of time trying to mend students equipment.

 

Yes Chromebooks are interesting but limiting.

 

I think the whole answer lies between the lines. Traditional infrastructure, PC's in admin running MIS and finance, backed up and maintained in house. Known data location for student and staff records - SLT always love that.

 

Cloud based storage for students to access and use at home and school. 365 or Google running and delivering 90% of the schools needs. The other 10% via Client PC running the software you have to.

 

Not much of a design I'll grant you, but that's where we are (in my opinion) we're still not ready for a total solution. If I had to do something now - designing a new free school or something (not primary) this is how I'd do it. Give it 3 years.

 

Again - just my opinion.

 

Dave.

 

BYO chromebook is the furthest I'd go. But if it was from scratch, and I wasn't forced to use SIMS (although you could just RDP to hosted sims) or whatever stupid finance package an LA forces me to use, I would go entirely cloud. 2 ISPs, 2 fibers, going to two different rooms on either side of the school, following 2 different routes so a human with a JCB can't break both at once.

 

Everyone gets 2 factor logins via https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time-based_One-time_Password_Algorithm , might as well teach users to be secure.

 

Default to GSuite, have O365 as well for people who want/need MS Word document fidelity.

 

For anyone who wants non web software we'd consider it on a case by case basis, RDP etc to a cloud server. But prioritise new ways of doing things, do you really need to design a poster?, make a website instead, etc.

 

If you can start from scratch it's a lot easier, no history of MSWord docs etc. Less inertia to moving to a new thing. No need to scrap existing software we've bought.

 

I'd have mandatory weekly staff training, where they can bring up their problems and we can find solutions together. Emphasize the advantages, going on a field trip? Take these laptops and 3g mifi. Taking photos? They're already in your drive because photo sync. No need to copy files to a usb stick. Lean on security as an advantage.

 

Make sure they're emphasizing collaboration, as that's what's actually needed in life/workplace, seek out qualifications that embrace that, not "we're going to cut you off from the world and see if you've memorized a load of stuff for 2 hours at the end of the year, we're not sure why, but that's what we did 100 years ago, so...tradition?"

[jmak]

Just seen this Airhead 360 which allows you to run full Windows applications within a web browser with accounts provisioned from MIS. They have some schools (I think primaries at the minute) which have eliminated on site servers. I presume the applications are still running in Windows (Azure) servers, but not managed or hosted by the schools, so maybe the best of both worlds...