[sims] Admitting students now

[PhilNeal]

Silly input - sorry! Edited July 10, 2017 by PhilNeal

[minimoo]

@PhilNeal - can we have a unique ID field that schools can use for internal systems/share in sims 8 ?

 

we mark students as admitted (with a start date of 4th sepember) to get internal admission number - as the admission number was the only ID we could use that was unique - then delete students who never turned up.

 

This does mean that there could be 'gaps' in the numbers issued - but as someone pointed out - the format of the admission number i believe is defined to be school specific - and the regulations seem to (mainly) only refer to the PAN (published admission numbers).

 

The obvious question would be is there a within SIMS that we could(should) be using instead if a school requires something unique to link to? (i've never liked 'admitting' students to get a number and then deleting them, leaving gaps - but i've never found guidance that says says we can't do that)

 

The requirements for the "admissions register" that Phil referenced are at The Education (Pupil Registration) (England) Regulations 2006 - note: I can't see a requirement for a number to exist at first glance.

 

In terms of ID's in sims, unless there is something i'm not aware of:

 

person_id (on sims database tables - accessible by 3rd party reporting kit reports) - Sims state this ID should not be used as it's not guaranteed to change (referenced as the internal ID @ Become a partner | Capita SIMS )

external GUID - assuming this is the 32bit string - not the most useful field for some applications that want a number

upn - upn guidance basically says not to share/use

ULN - from 14 year old only

UCI - I believe can't be generated until students have done some exams?

Exam organiser's exam number - IIRC - limit on number that can be generated so likely to be re-used at some point.

admission number - unique number, no regulation on how it can be used AFAIK, only generated by sims when student is admitted. School's can define format.

[minimoo]

Even more intriguing. I might need to speak to our admissions lady! Although we are a Free School, for the main intake we get admission centrally from the LA (Surrey) via SAM. Outside of that (in-year) that we run our own admissions. It's basically a spreadsheet with some funky scripting to work the admission criteria. I don't think we've ever sent an admissions number to a parent. Perhaps the LA does for the main application? I presume the regs for this are the same as those for the attendance register?

 

Edubase will show a school capacity field for schools (including free schools) e.g. for a random free school - EduBase - Alban City School - it's 450.

 

I'm *assuming* that the capacity field here is supposed to be the PAN number

[Ditto]

Re the Regs - agreed, I could not see anything there either. I even checked the amendments and could see nothing of consequence. IT's a fantastic piece of legislation - my current favourite is:

Method of making entries:13.—(1) Every entry in an admission register or attendance register shall be made in ink

 

To be fair, Reg 15 does cover the use of computers but it still makes me smile.

[PhilNeal]

@minimoo I agree that a number isn't included in the Regulation quoted - it's always been my understanding that a sequence is required as all admission registers have a space for a sequence number.

 

I'll talk to the third party support team tomorrow about their guidance - I'm not aware that a Person_ID could change but they should know!!

[CAM]

The problem with admitting early now is the students need an attendance mark. Previously this wasn't a big problem as the last half of the summer term was ignored, but some clever person at the DfE decided including the most turbulent and difficult time of the year for attendance when two entire year groups disappear and students start appearing for next year was a great idea. So now any attendance marks put in for the new students to say they are not here risk appearing on the census.

 

Also be careful during your transition to make sure you don't put new students in Year 7 and carry out academic promotion later which sees your new arrivals in Year 8 and your Year 7 empty. It's generally easier use the pre-admission system and frankly Parentpay, etc need to buck their ideas up and stop requiring students to be admitted before they should be.

[Steven_Cleaver]

The problem with admitting early now is the students need an attendance mark. Previously this wasn't a big problem as the last half of the summer term was ignored, but some clever person at the DfE decided including the most turbulent and difficult time of the year for attendance when two entire year groups disappear and students start appearing for next year was a great idea. So now any attendance marks put in for the new students to say they are not here risk appearing on the census.

 

Also be careful during your transition to make sure you don't put new students in Year 7 and carry out academic promotion later which sees your new arrivals in Year 8 and your Year 7 empty. It's generally easier use the pre-admission system and frankly Parentpay, etc need to buck their ideas up and stop requiring students to be admitted before they should be.

 

Hi CAM cheers for this, we are using Pre-admissions group and isn't Parent Pay requirement that they are Admitted only Accepted was just for some reason this Year Pre-admissions have been Admitted with Start date 4th of September we only usually put them as Accepted up until first day so am just trying to gauge what issues we may have due to them being Admitted to be honest I did say put as Accepted as was enough.

[PhilNeal]

@minimoo - I've checked with the Partner Team about the Person_ID. The only time that this would change is when a backup is restored and pupils re-entered in a different order. The recommendation is to use the GUID + the Person_ID to link to external systems. When 8 comes the GUID will be the same but the Person_ID will change.

[Banjo]

@minimoo I agree that a number isn't included in the Regulation quoted - it's always been my understanding that a sequence is required as all admission registers have a space for a sequence number.

 

I'll talk to the third party support team tomorrow about their guidance - I'm not aware that a Person_ID could change but they should know!!

 

Maybe create a SIMS 'pre-admission number' that externals could use to plug into. It would be unique and stay with the student.

[minimoo]

@minimoo - I've checked with the Partner Team about the Person_ID. The only time that this would change is when a backup is restored and pupils re-entered in a different order. The recommendation is to use the GUID + the Person_ID to link to external systems. When 8 comes the GUID will be the same but the Person_ID will change.

 

Phil - thanks - that kind of confirms my point - the only field guaranteed to stay the same (and be numeric only) is the admission number at the moment - upn/uci etc have other strings attached.

@CAM - remember there's a difference to "admitting" a student early on the 11th July with an admission date of 7th September - to admitting them 'today'. In the first case, it's marking them as admitted - which effectively gives them an admission number in sims that can't be reused (as it's a sequence) but as the date of admission is september, they don't appear until then..

[PhilNeal]

I don't think we can put yet another number in the system!! Especially one that will need to be maintained manually.

[CAM]

Phil - thanks - that kind of confirms my point - the only field guaranteed to stay the same (and be numeric only) is the admission number at the moment - upn/uci etc have other strings attached.

@CAM - remember there's a difference to "admitting" a student early on the 11th July with an admission date of 7th September - to admitting them 'today'. In the first case, it's marking them as admitted - which effectively gives them an admission number in sims that can't be reused (as it's a sequence) but as the date of admission is september, they don't appear until then..

 

Where is the option for this? LA support tells us not to admit them until they cross the threshold anyway in-case someone doesn't turn up so I've only ever admitted someone on the day in Admit Applications but there's no date picker?

[mavhc]

The GUID is a number, just not in base 10, convert it to base 10, done.

 

The question is: Why do you want to admit them now with a start date in the future, what does the Application part of SIMS not do, or a 3rd party not do that requires it?

[bobsmith]

when you put your applicants on one of the registration fields is admission date.

 

If you set the date in the future (as you would do when putting applicants on) then they are not actually on roll until then.

 

As for the "crossing the threshold" it's very true that this is the case - however deleting the student also works. It's mostly to do with CENSUS and CME stuff, so as long as you are on top of things* it's not going to get you shot**

 

* i.e. don't submit the census with them still on your roll if they aren't!!!

 

**unless your LA is deeply linked into your MIS and get updates from it automatically, in which case you may well get shot.

[bobsmith]

The GUID is a number, just not in base 10, convert it to base 10, done.

 

The question is: Why do you want to admit them now with a start date in the future, what does the Application part of SIMS not do, or a 3rd party not do that requires it?

Admission numbers - which many 3rd party apps want to use as the unique reference in their database.

[mavhc]

Admission numbers - which many 3rd party apps want to use as the unique reference in their database.

 

So the questions are: Is a GUID created for Application students, and can the system switch to using the GUID, converted to base 10 if needed.

[Esteban_Child_of_the_Sun]

Each person in SIMS has a unique external ID and that remains consistent irrespective of what roles that person is assigned. So the person with the role of applicant is still the same person who gets assigned a role of 'current student'

[Banjo]

**unless your LA is deeply linked into your MIS and get updates from it automatically, in which case you may well get shot.

 

Lot's of LA's pull data frequently from schools (we pull once a day) - Admitting early may cause issues for the admissions team if your LA controls mid-year admissions process as the current number of students in the school wont be accurate. If your a school with empty places looking for new students this may not be a good idea.

[minimoo]

The GUID is a number, just not in base 10, convert it to base 10, done.

 

The question is: Why do you want to admit them now with a start date in the future, what does the Application part of SIMS not do, or a 3rd party not do that requires it?

 

in terms of the GUID - isn't that 128 bits? if a system using an integer id 2^32 - it's not going to work ?

 

I know for instance in our particular case, we have a catering and library system that both require an integer (historically admission number was used) - in modern times the catering system is cashless... so requirement to add people before september. I could work out a way to potentially change to some other ID system - but it would need to be a standard integer - and I dont think a GUID maps to that

 

We are lucky here on two sides - a) our LA doesn't get involved so no syncing issues b) we have >2000 applications for 200 places effectively so it's quite unusual to have students leave or join either mid year or between years.

[mavhc]

in terms of the GUID - isn't that 128 bits? if a system using an integer id 2^32 - it's not going to work ?

 

That would be the issue, but don't assume all integers are 32 bit, I guess you'd have to try a really big number and see

[jonspurs]

Does anyone know what date Progresso will increment the year groups? And mark them as Active?

Been on hold for ages!

[djrscally]

Go to Data > Academic Data > Academic Years. The start date of next year is what you're looking for.

 

Bear in mind the rollup of years will only happen if someone's done Academic Progression.

[krtek]

I'm not the expert on this but I do recall the sainted Terry Keane introducing a requirement for schools to admit students on the day on which the admission was agreed with the parent - irrespective of whether they crossed the threshold.

 

The school is then required to maintain an attendance record until such times as the reason for absence or location of the child at another establishment is established.

 

http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130103050349/https://www.education.gov.uk/publications/eOrderingDownload/UKSI-20061751.pdf

 

Don't think that this has been rescinded since.

 

Dave

[krtek]

still there in 2016

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/564599/school_attendance.pdf

 

Dave