Network Manager refuses to install OpenOffice - comments please.

[Domino]

... oh, and decide that Mattx is right about Apple ;-)

 

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO:eek:

[t20racerman]

Doesn't work like that though I'm afraid. You make an exception for one department and all the others want something else then. I'm afraid you've got to have consistancy across the network.

 

 

 

What do you mean by 'an exception'?? Do you vet the software used by the languages, maths and Art departments for example to decide whether it is 'consistent' with something used by say the music department??

Do you remove 'Paint' from all PCs if one department uses Photoshop?

 

What do you mean by consistency here? Please explain

 

 

 

And as for MS office not opening OOo format docs, then just save those docs to be word compatible.

 

MS Office does not follow published 'Open' standards and refuses to open up its formats and software for competitors to study. The EU fined it millions for this earlier this week as I'm sure you know. OOo uses .odt which is an internationally recognised open format for documents (in the same way every browser recognises .gif or .jpg files), but FULL compatibility with Microsoft Office is not possible in OOo or indeed any other competitor program.

If you read this forum you will see that even Microsoft Office versions don't always work correctly with each other. Many pupils in our school with an different version of Office on their home computers can't print documents out or use the files on the School network as our present version of MS Office doesn't recognise them!!

 

If MS Office opened all my OOo documents and files perfectly, neither I, or any pupil would have any complaint.

Edited February 28, 2008 by t20racerman

[t20racerman]

I would asked your NM to do the portable open office to a network share, or a portable open office install to a directory on each PC in your department, that way no files are install into the reg or windows system folders on any of the PCs and any problem you just delete the directory and its gone.

 

Hope this help..

 

Ste

 

When the NM agreed on the 'separate disc' solution I pointed out that without Network privileges, I couldn't install it so that when a user clicked on an icon, OOo would open up the file. As OOo wasn't installed through Windows, just installed by itself to its own folder, Windows had no idea what programs to use when I clicked on a .odt, .ods or .odp file. Up would come the 'Windows does not recognise this type of file - Open with... ' dialogue and then you had to go through a long route to find the folder and pick the program. This is NOT ideal in the heat of a lesson when trying to open an Impress presentation!

 

The NM tried to change the Windows settings, on my networked PC, so that Windows associated OOo with the required programs... This was successful.... until I rebooted it and then it went back to the 'Windows does not recognise this type of file - Open with... ' dialogue.

 

There it was left. I have to go through this rigaromole every time I want an OOo file opened.

 

I asked here about technical problems with OOo. This solution seemed the worse of all worlds - connected to the Network, but not working properly, and only the most technical competent staff able to open up OOo files!

[Joanne]

Meh. We have an open office msi that can be deployed at any time, but it's not. Nobody has asked and nobody seems to know it exists.

 

Our school has a license that allows members of staff to have a copy of Office on their machines at home... you should ask about that. School might be able to provide for you and the foriegn peoples, could help in the short term?

 

Dunno why your NM has such a beef about the open office though. Freeware rules. I might create a package for GIMPshop tomorrow! hmmm....

[localzuk]

Doesn't work like that though I'm afraid. You make an exception for one department and all the others want something else then. I'm afraid you've got to have consistancy across the network.

 

And as for MS office not opening OOo format docs, then just save those docs to be word compatible.

 

As has been said multiple times now, saving them as word compatible (or powerpoint compatible etc...) is not a perfect solution. There are a number of problems which occur when transferring between the 2 suites.

 

Also, consistency is nonsense. Our machines in the Maths dept don't have all the history and geography programs on, just the basic office software and maths software that they use there. Same in our DT dept, they have the basic DT software etc...

 

Networks in schools are meant to be flexible, to allow good T&L. There is absolutely no technical or realistic reason why OO.o could not be installed on the 3 machines that the OP wants it installed on.

[Midget]

when a user clicked on an icon, OOo would open up the file. As OOo wasn't installed through Windows, just installed by itself to its own folder, Windows had no idea what programs to use when I clicked on a .odt, .ods or .odp file.

 

This solution seemed the worse of all worlds - connected to the Network, but not working properly, and only the most technical competent staff able to open up OOo files!

 

rubbish. Open OOo with shortcut. file--> open--> choose document.

 

Alot of people i know use this method for opening MSOffice docs despite the fact they could just double click on the .doc

[t20racerman]

rubbish. Open OOo with shortcut. file--> open--> choose document.

 

Alot of people i know use this method for opening MSOffice docs despite the fact they could just double click on the .doc

 

 

My Staff are not all technical like we are. They want to click on a file in the 'Physics' folder and for it to then open up - they don't care what program opens it as long as it opens correctly!

 

Also, I'd have to put separate shortcuts on their desktops to OOo writer, Impress, Math, calc etc and then my staff would have to know which one opened which file!

Edited February 28, 2008 by t20racerman
Added last sentence

[Midget]

then use the same method I use for getting people to use firefox. rename the shortcut

 

 

writer shortcut name = OpenWord

math shortcut name = OpenExcel

 

etc that way they know which one is equiv.

 

and the people i know who open the prog first then the files are all people who don't have a full grasp of computers.

[MkII]

rubbish. Open OOo with shortcut. file--> open--> choose document.

 

Alot of people i know use this method for opening MSOffice docs despite the fact they could just double click on the .doc

 

Agreed Midget - a lame excuse indeed. This is only one department on 3 PCs after all - why are we talking about all staff all of a sudden?

 

Why not export from impress if you just want to make a show - html, swf??

[t20racerman]

then use the same method I use for getting people to use firefox. rename the shortcut

 

writer shortcut name = OpenWord

math shortcut name = OpenExcel

 

etc that way they know which one is equiv.

 

and the people i know who open the prog first then the files are all people who don't have a full grasp of computers.

 

I think we are off track a little here.

 

Without Windows recognising which program opens which file, my staff (4 of them plus me) would navigate to the Physics folder and a see a File called say - 4th yr SoW. (Scheme of Work).

However, under the 'seperate disc' solution, this would be a default icon that Windows uses when it doesn't recognise the file type (as discussed earlier). They would not know which program to open it with. How would the technically weaker members of my department know if I'd written this in 'Writer' or 'Calc'. (It is actually done in Calc, not Writer as you' might expect it to be)

This makes life complicated. If it was recognised by Windows - ie OOo installed correctly - they could just click on the icon and 'bing!' the file opens. Is this too much to ask?

 

 

I appreciate people offering work-arounds, but to be honest I've tried them all and nothing so far works quickly, easily and is simple to understand.

 

I did ask if there were technical reasons why OOo could not be installed, and still I'm waiting for reasons why not!

 

Please let me know the answer to that. Thanks

[mortstar]

There are no technical reasons why not.

 

If you are intent on steamrollering this issue then you will be treading on toes and this may bode badly for you in future interactions with the NM.

 

Obviously it is your choice to carry on with this request - I'm not sure what OpenOffice offers you over MS Office - to most they seem pretty identical (disregarding their support for open standards) - I'd be worried if a trainee teacher (from England or abroad) could not transfer the skills they learnt in OOo to MS Office.

[sfoord]

Sorry I thought you want people who used open office at home etc to be about to print edit documents etc..

 

You are correct if you want to just double click on a open office file the easiest way is to install it on the pcs, Personally I don’t see it as a problem, But I know a few place where having ms office & open office on the same pcs does confuses the teachers & some pupils as you have said not all staff are technical!!

 

The way you are talking it sounds like you want to force your department’s staff to use open office, which from a whole school point of view, starts becomes difficult as when you share documents between other departments or even others school, I know off two schools around here that uninstall open office because of this reason. I guess you want open office install all over the school so you can edit\print documents on any pc in the school to make your life easier?

 

I would install open office across the school along side MS Office as there are no technical reasons why not too, but I would not force anyone to use it.

 

Also any open office product will open any open office document so you only need one shortcut on your desktops so your staff don't have to know which program open which file type!!! Try it

[powdarrmonkey]

The way you are talking it sounds like you want to force your department’s staff to use open office, which from a whole school point of view, starts becomes difficult as when you share documents between other departments or even others school, I know off two schools around here that uninstall open office because of this reason. I guess you want open office install all over the school so you can edit\print documents on any pc in the school to make your life easier?

 

That's not what he's saying at all, he wants them side by side. But that's academic anyway, because the question is whether there are any technical reasons why they should not co-exist, and the answer is not if installed and managed appropriately. There are political reasons, of course, but they are not technical.

[ZeroHour]

I think we are off track a little here.

 

Without Windows recognising which program opens which file, my staff (4 of them plus me) would navigate to the Physics folder and a see a File called say - 4th yr SoW. (Scheme of Work).

However, under the 'seperate disc' solution, this would be a default icon that Windows uses when it doesn't recognise the file type (as discussed earlier). They would not know which program to open it with. How would the technically weaker members of my department know if I'd written this in 'Writer' or 'Calc'. (It is actually done in Calc, not Writer as you' might expect it to be)

This makes life complicated. If it was recognised by Windows - ie OOo installed correctly - they could just click on the icon and 'bing!' the file opens. Is this too much to ask?

 

 

I appreciate people offering work-arounds, but to be honest I've tried them all and nothing so far works quickly, easily and is simple to understand.

One point, your saying most of your staff would struggle with 2 sets of formats to deal with.

This is EXACTLY why you standardise across the school and this is probably one of the biggest things your NM will say. This is to ensure everyone knows exactly what to expect and use and so you can train them in the standard software which is everywhere. Each dep has speciliased software yes but they all have the same office suite to simply training. If each dep had their own choice of office software then it would be a nightmare to ensure everyone is trained in what each department has.

 

Techincally there are not many reasons you would not have it installed. The problem is "technically" is not the whole picture that the NM must consider. You wont find many technical reasons but there are a lot of potential training/political reasons that must be considered and its not a simple as technical reasons.

Edited February 28, 2008 by ZeroHour

[flyinghaggis]

MS Office does not follow published 'Open' standards and refuses to open up its formats and software for competitors to study. The EU fined it millions for this earlier this week as I'm sure you know. OOo uses .odt which is an internationally recognised open format for documents (in the same way every browser recognises .gif or .jpg files), but FULL compatibility with Microsoft Office is not possible in OOo or indeed any other competitor program.

If you read this forum you will see that even Microsoft Office versions don't always work correctly with each other. Many pupils in our school with an different version of Office on their home computers can't print documents out or use the files on the School network as our present version of MS Office doesn't recognise them!!

If MS Office opened all my OOo documents and files perfectly, neither I, or any pupil would have any complaint.

 

Skipping past the anti-MS OpenOffice Fanboy rant (which I think says a lot about your own personal agenda) you've just proven my point in saying that you're running into problems because you're using 2 different systems. If you're knowingly making all of your teaching resources in OO Impress which ,according to you, isn't compatible with Powerpoint then isn't that a bit short-sighted on your part? That means whenever a pupils goes anywhere in the school other than those '3 machines in your dept' they aren't going to be able to view your materials. This is why I spoke about the whole school view as staff&pupils will, quite rightly, expect to be able to view these documents elsewhere in the school. This leads you very quickly down the path of making the software available everywhere on the network.

In terms of progressing your request what you should really do is raise it via the relevant channels in your school. You can then sit down with all of the 'players' who your request will ultimately affect (computing dept, IT Support, Office, Headmaster, perhaps PTA if you're suggesting that pupils use it at home) and make an informed decision about the best way forward. Simply wandering along to the Headmasters office and demanding that you get a piece of software when it has so many potential repercussions isn't the way to approach it.

Edited February 28, 2008 by flyinghaggis

[t20racerman]

The way you are talking it sounds like you want to force your department’s staff to use open office, which from a whole school point of view, starts becomes difficult

 

No, absolutely not. Two of us always use OOo, three mostly use MS Office. I would want MS Office to stay as default, but for all members of staff to click on SAVED files and for them to open correctly in whichever program they were written.

 

 

 

I would install open office across the school along side MS Office as there are no technical reasons why not too, but I would not force anyone to use it.

 

No, me neither!

 

Also any open office product will open any open office document so you only need one shortcut on your desktops so your staff don't have to know which program open which file type!!! Try it

 

Thanks, I didn't know that!

[Midget]

Considering the few number of people that'll be using the programs (people you insist already use them, so should know what is what) I can't see there being a problem with them doing as I said previously and opening say, OOo Writer and then opening the document just like a lot of low IT literacy people do with MSOffice Word files.

 

If however its because you are doing your lesson notes in OOo and then forcing your students to have it installed on their machines if they want to actually read your notes, then this is a completely different subject and nothing to do with the technical questions or T&L and more to do with politics.

[markcuk]

 

 

I am meeting with the Headmaster again next week, and am actually at the point of resigning from my job as Head of Physics due to the many frustrations I feel working here.

 

 

maybe you should

 

 

Would love to hear the network manages side of the story but if the head and everyone agrees and you cant get what you want then deal WITH IT.

 

mark

[DarkLight]

I disagree. Someone shouldn't have to resign because they can't get a simple piece of software installed on a minority of computers.

 

You have a strong reason for wanting OOo - students use it at home, and it isn't terribly compatible with MS Office. This is a valid reason, and I can't see where you said you would force it on anyone who doesn't want to use it - instead allow students to use it if they wish. I think you should be encouraged to learn different pieces of software, regardless of which is the industry standard and which is not (as long as you have experience with both.)

 

There is no obviously painful technical reason for not having OOo installed on those machines, and any issues that might come up (staff not being trained in OOo) can be fixed. For example, staff don't even have to use OOo if they don't want too - just make sure MS Office is the default for the majority of MS Office documents (e.g. .doc, .ppt etc) and therefore OOo can still open the documents from File -> Open. The software installed on most computers in a college is probably never touched by the majority of users; for example nearly everyone might use MS Word or Internet Explorer - but hardly any use Sage or Logos or something that is installed on there for the minority of users who need it - but it's still installed.

 

If staff are stupid enough to try and use OOo when MS Office is installed, defaulted and not altered in any way by the OOo install - and they don't know how to use it - then this is their issue, and you can bring it up with them individually.

 

As people have said, technical support in a school is there for a reason - to help and assist T&L, and help end users. Your T&L requires OOo for 3 computers; you should get it. There isn't a valid reason why not. A NM being lazy isn't one of them.

 

Best Regards,

[t20racerman]

 

If however its because you are doing your lesson notes in OOo and then forcing your students to have it installed on their machines if they want to actually read your notes, then this is a completely different subject and nothing to do with the technical questions or T&L and more to do with politics.

 

Other way round actually, I want to see presentations that pupils make who only have OOo at home, and I want to print out their work so that I can mark it.

 

I really didn't want this thread to become a flame war, or an OOo v MS war, or even one where people throw insults at each other. It is a shame that this has degenerated into that in places.

 

I had hoped to tap into the professionalism of IT Professionals working in Education to find out about the Technical problems I keep being warned of of using OOo on a Network. I asked because I didn't believe the flannel I was given by my NM, but as I'm NOT a NM, I hoped to find out more here in case there were technical problems of which I was unaware.

 

Sadly, the flaming has spoilt what was an interesting discussion. Perhaps we should leave it here - enough has been said.

 

Thanks to those who were keen to offer their thoughts - they were appreciated.

[Proactive]

What do you mean by 'an exception'?? Do you vet the software used by the languages, maths and Art departments for example to decide whether it is 'consistent' with something used by say the music department??

 

Do you remove 'Paint' from all PCs if one department uses Photoshop?

 

What do you mean by consistency here? Please explain

I've obviously expressed myself badly here so I'll try again.

 

By consistency I meant consistency in the way the Network ICT team try to treat all staff and departments across the school. Obviously this does not mean all departments need access to all the software that's deployed across the network, that would be daft. Some department require Photoshop, others cadcam stuff etc etc.

 

But if the policy is no open source software on the network, then consistency would be not allowing one department to have open-source software and not the others if they wanted it. If the policy is no, then no it should be otherwise you'll end up with a multitude of 'could you justs' from all over the place and a deal of resentment and difficulty in justifying it if the answer is no.

 

 

MS Office does not follow published 'Open' standards and refuses to open up its formats and software for competitors to study. The EU fined it millions for this earlier this week as I'm sure you know. OOo uses .odt which is an internationally recognised open format for documents (in the same way every browser recognises .gif or .jpg files), but FULL compatibility with Microsoft Office is not possible in OOo or indeed any other competitor program.

If you read this forum you will see that even Microsoft Office versions don't always work correctly with each other. Many pupils in our school with an different version of Office on their home computers can't print documents out or use the files on the School network as our present version of MS Office doesn't recognise them!!

 

If MS Office opened all my OOo documents and files perfectly, neither I, or any pupil would have any complaint.

 

I understand full well how open office works ta very much. But thanks for the clarification and the suggestion that I read more of this excellent forum. However, I meant saving your OOo documents to be compatible with MSO.

 

Could I just point out that I actually have no problem with you wanting OOo on your machines, I can just see it from the other side as well if a decision has been taken by those in charge of ICT within your school not to deploy open-source software.

 

Still think you're making a mountain out of a molehill though

[DarkLight]

@markcuk: I don't see what relevance your reply has to this discussion about OOo. Perhaps if you want to take something up with someone, contact them privately.

 

--

 

There is no reason that OOo should not be installed on the network - just because it's open source. OOo is secure as far as secure goes, but there is this myth about open source software that it is scary, bad and insecure; which for OOo is rubbish. A policy against open source software shouldn't exist, instead it would be changed to a policy against insecure software (not OOo).

[Proactive]

There is no reason that OOo should not be installed on the network - just because it's open source. OOo is secure as far as secure goes, but there is this myth about open source software that it is scary, bad and insecure; which for OOo is rubbish. A policy against open source software shouldn't exist, instead it would be changed to a policy against insecure software (not OOo).

 

Totally agree, but nevertheless plenty of schools do have such policies and clearly the strong representations that t20racerman has made over time to get such a policy overturned have been unsuccessful. There comes a time when, if for the sake of your own sanity if nothing else, you should let it lie.

[Zorro_Slot]

Perhaps NM should install it on those three machines for you - wouldnt take long and would give you what you want. The problem is that it would set a president (emmental cheese anyone?) so everybody else would want all manner of junk installed. Thas just my 2p.

[MkII]

We have OOo configured to save by default as MS Office formats - so in the scenario you cite you'd NEVER have the problem of unidentified icons from a share install of OOo. OOo created files will open in MS Office - perfect for your non technical users not capable of opening files from the applications itself.

 

There are plenty 'technical' reasons against installing OOo listed above, you're just defining 'technical' too narrowly. To those of us responsible for maintaining networks, everything said above falls within our remit in it's stable and efficient running. You may not understand that reasoning from a users perspective is all.

Edited February 28, 2008 by MkII