Network Manager refuses to install OpenOffice - comments please.

[tmcd35]

I've just had a quick scan through this thread and I must admit, I'm amazed that a Network Manager would not want to install OOo onto three machines. I'm even more amazed that he'd then allow you to run a program from a pen drive!

 

I'm not overly worried about unsecure apps running on the network - It's what virus checkers and ghost and AD permissions, firewalls, etc where invented for - I'm more concerned that the kids can play games and the like from their pen sticks, not good. No, exe's and msi's and swf's (amongst others) are blocked from running accept from specific local/network drives that I have total control over on this network, thank you.

 

As for OOo. We have the reverse problem here. I believe it's a cracking alternative to MS Office. Certainly OOo 3.0 looks more inviting to me as a potential replacement to MS Office 2003 than MS Office 2007 does. How ever, having put on on our network along side MS Office and made it downloadable from our schools website, I still can't convince anyone to actually use it!

 

If you were at this school, I'd be more than happy to install OOo onto any three machines you choose - why stop at three. If it's going to be used and improves the teaching/learning experience I'd install it on as many machines as you care to name.

 

The same goes for any good quality FOSS product you care to name - Dia, Gimp, Freemind, Scratch - To name but a few that I've installed on various machines here at teachers requests.

[Midget]

I had OOo installed on all my machines in the image, and the CDT dept used it as preference, apart from making sure it didnt steal controls over filetypes or ran the quicklaunch, it was straight forward.

[Proactive]

I have office 2007 on the network and when they've finalised the latest version of open office I'll put that on as well. For the same reasons that I want IE, Firefox and Opera browsers all on the network soon and why we have Macromedia and Serif etc etc etc. It's about giving people choice and keeping in mind that it's the skills we are here to teach, not the software.

 

However, I run the network and in conjunction with the Headteacher that is the decision that we have taken.

 

I don't suppose I'd take too kindly to a head of department banging away at the same thing again and again, even though he had been given many and varied reasons as to why it wasn't going to happen.

 

The fact is in your school the Network Manager and the ICT Project Board make the decisions as to what is on your network. You've made representations but on this occasion not got what you want. Deal with it. At the end of the day it's not a big deal; nobody's going to die and there isn't going to be a war. And as for resigning over a piece of software on 3 machines...

 

But you're just creating so much fuss in what many people in your school think is probably non of you business. Would you like it if your network manager or the head of Languages, for example, kept going on about better ways of running the Physics department?

 

Not trying to cause an argument, just think you've blown it out of all proportion.

[markcuk]

I have office 2007 on the network and when they've finalised the latest version of open office I'll put that on as well. For the same reasons that I want IE, Firefox and Opera browsers all on the network soon and why we have Macromedia and Serif etc etc etc. It's about giving people choice and keeping in mind that it's the skills we are here to teach, not the software.

 

However, I run the network and in conjunction with the Headteacher that is the decision that we have taken.

 

I don't suppose I'd take too kindly to a head of department banging away at the same thing again and again, even though he had been given many and varied reasons as to why it wasn't going to happen.

 

The fact is in your school the Network Manager and the ICT Project Board make the decisions as to what is on your network. You've made representations but on this occasion not got what you want. Deal with it. At the end of the day it's not a big deal; nobody's going to die and there isn't going to be a war. And as for resigning over a piece of software on 3 machines...

 

But you're just creating so much fuss in what many people in your school think is probably non of you business. Would you like it if your network manager or the head of Languages, for example, kept going on about better ways of running the Physics department?

 

Not trying to cause an argument, just think you've blown it out of all proportion.

 

agree 100%

[Netman]

The school also need to think about the fact that allowing the NM to have his way is having a detrimental effect to the Teaching & Learning of your department, and as such, theoretical on the students and schools grades, and that parents would actually have a legitimate complaint against the school if this was harming the education of their child.

 

I'm easily one for sticking my heals in the ground over teachers making insane requests however much they scream & shout. However, in this case, you're simply right, and the NM is simply wrong. It's bordering on incompetence.

 

Exactamundo Fonzi.... we only exist to provide resources for T&L to the best of our ability/budget. Why do so many NMs seem to get on some crazy power trip about it all? As Diello so rightly said - it is incompetent to refuse a reasonable request for resources which this quite plainly is...

[DMcCoy]

Exactamundo Fonzi.... we only exist to provide resources for T&L to the best of our ability/budget. Why do so many NMs seem to get on some crazy power trip about it all? As Diello so rightly said - it is incompetent to refuse a reasonable request for resources which this quite plainly is...

 

This is not quite true though. We are here to provide T&L resources while making sure the network is also reliable and secure. If you were just to provide everything anyone wanted for "T&L", which you could, you would also soon have a non functional or insecure system. It's all about the balance and the compromises each side make.

 

It's these compromises that are going to cause the most problems and where the power trips come in.

 

I can easily think of a good reason not to install open office in addition to MS office. WSUS. You can have your security patches for office deployed easily and monitor the patch status of each machine. That's not to say you can't do it for open office, but if you already have the system in place for MS then you really need to work on the *advantages* of OO to offset the time required for implementation of a new software package.

 

The areas that are going to become contentious is when the "No's" always come back with a variety of lame excuses to avoid additional work. It would be far more acceptable to point out that you don't have the time now and to then try to compromise on a date for review.

 

I have Office 2007 and OO installed for all users, and I can think of many good reasons to do so that outweigh the negatives - but this will all depend on each individual network etc.

 

I'm sure some staff members could post something similar about me, but unless you hear both sides of how the issue was approached then you simply can't start throwing terms around like incompetent. I for example have specific times of the year when software deployment takes place and I don't like to make exceptions based on the whim of others.

 

There is a difference between rational discussion and the "I NEED THIS NOW! IT'S AFFECTING MY T&L" that gets thrown about when people don't always get their own way, often due to lack of forward planning.

[PEO]

As I said, all comments welcome. How exactly would I install it myself though, (without network permissions) so that when a member of staff clicked onto one of the Departmental Schemes of work or question sheets, it opened in OOo? I've tried converting the OOo format documents to M$ ones, but tables and columns all mess up and the formats are lost.

 

Also, how could I stop the USB hard drives from being stolen by pupils? Is this a secure or workable idea?

 

 

Your NM woould have provided you with a laptop? correct?

 

Have it installed on to your laptop. like other people have said no need for two office software

[PEO]

Exactamundo Fonzi.... we only exist to provide resources for T&L to the best of our ability/budget. Why do so many NMs seem to get on some crazy power trip about it all? As Diello so rightly said - it is incompetent to refuse a reasonable request for resources which this quite plainly is...

 

give an inch they take a mile something my mother used to say to me

[webman]

I can easily think of a good reason not to install open office in addition to MS office. WSUS. You can have your security patches for office deployed easily and monitor the patch status of each machine.

 

So by that logic the only software packages on your network are Microsoft ones that are updated via WSUS? Are all your other third-party software and applications updated via WSUS too?

 

The guy just wants to use OpenOffice on a few machines along-side MS office; this should be evaluated by the Network Manager just like any other piece of software for T&L regardless of what it actually does and regardless if its features closely match some other piece of software.

[DMcCoy]

So by that logic the only software packages on your network are Microsoft ones that are updated via WSUS? Are all your other third-party software and applications updated via WSUS too?

 

The guy just wants to use OpenOffice on a few machines along-side MS office; this should be evaluated by the Network Manager just like any other piece of software for T&L regardless of what it actually does and regardless if its features closely match some other piece of software.

 

Read what I wrote again. I said I could think of a good reason not to add an additional office package, not "I hate open source software and love MS so damn much".

 

I did point out that I use OO (and also various other open source apps) because I didn't think that things like wsus support is a good enough reason - but this will be subjective, it can still be a valid reason.

[alan-d]

Back to the OP

 

I assume you have put this request and it's reasoning into the department development plan, and when is your next OFSTED due?

 

Personally I can see no reason whatsoever for your NM not to install OO throughout the school.

 

We are toying with the idea instead of upgrading to Office 2007 not so much because of costs but for the reson that many staff are famililiar with the layout which 2007 changes quite a bit.

 

I suppose your school does not use moodle as it's VLE either? Unlike millions of others.

 

I'd be interested to hear your NM point of view on this topic too. Not wishing to sound rude but we do only have your version of the subject

[pallen]

There is no technical reason why you should be refused installation of Open Office to be working along side MS Office. However as people have pointed out, there will be other things that are not known on this issue.

 

If your NM has a policy in place where they only install software over the holidays then maybe OO could be added to a list of software to be installed. If he is flat out refusing to install it onto a networked computer, then pehaps he can suggest an alternative solution which will satisfy both parties?

 

Put simply your request is having the ability to use OO in your room. If the NM can provide this by any means he has given you what you want.

[Proactive]

I suppose your school does not use moodle as it's VLE either? Unlike millions of others.

 

T'would be a boring world indeed if we all did the same thing...

[GrumbleDook]

Your NM woould have provided you with a laptop? correct?

 

Have it installed on to your laptop. like other people have said no need for two office software

 

You are serious? There is definitely a need for two versions of most software ... it is not only about personal choice but about students (and staff actually) learning to be able to move from one system to another, or one application to another with little or no problems.

 

Transferrable skills (buzzword alert!) are actually about people being able to take skills and concepts from one task and use them in other situations. This makes learners (students *and* staff) more independent. The more independent they are, the more they can think for themselves ... the more competent and confident in ICT they become.

 

The upside of this is that you are less likely to get stupid calls about why powerpoint won't open that funny file called newbie.pages. (yeah .. I know, the .pages files is actually a containing folder and that is how it appears on a Windows box, but you get the idea!)

 

I would say that it is extremely important that skills and concepts are taught rather than specific applications.

[gaz350]

i think alan-d was pointing out that millions of schools use moodle, aka open source software.

and that due to the "insecure" nature of OSS your NM would never install it

[flyinghaggis]

In my opinion the NM has every right to refuse to install Openoffice. I think that if a teacher asked for it here we'd probably refuse it on the grounds that we have an equivalent product (MS Office) that has all of the functionality of openoffice. I would also argue against it on the grounds that it would confuse staff by having 2 systems that do the same thing. That and there's no guarantee that all of the plug-in macro's and add-on programs (mathtype) would work in openoffice. It also introduces the potential for compatability issues between documents made using difference software. eg. I could see staff saving document in OO file format then other staff wondering why they cant open them in MS Word!

 

At the end of the day it makes much more sense for the school to standardize on a single Office application to ensure compatibility and simplify technical support/training. I'm not going say one's better than the other but if the NM/Headmaster have decided on an Office Suite for the whole school to use I don't feel you are really in a position to demand an alternative just because you don't like what the rest of the school's using.

 

I would agree with you in saying that there aren't any security issues associated with open office (or open source software in general). We use plenty of opensource applications but I feel that where there are 2 products offering similar functionality a business/school needs to make a call and pick one or the other.

Edited February 28, 2008 by flyinghaggis

[Diello]

He's not asking for it to be deployed around the school however. In such a case, the school and NM would be well within their rights to say that he's overstepping his bounds.

 

However, he's not asking for that - he's asking for it to be installed on the computers within the department - no need for network deployment at all.

 

It's unlikely that he's going to confuse himself by having both Office and OO available when he's requested specifically that.

 

The compatibility issues are precisely one of the problems he's trying to remedy! That resources they have are currently unusable.

 

The WSUS argument doesn't hold any water - WSUS covers barely 5% of the software we use here.

 

This is not quite true though. We are here to provide T&L resources while making sure the network is also reliable and secure. If you were just to provide everything anyone wanted for "T&L", which you could, you would also soon have a non functional or insecure system. It's all about the balance and the compromises each side make.

 

Very true - the problem is there is a thin dividing line between maintaining the balance between supporting T&L and the stability of the school network, vs. becoming obtuse just because you can.

 

I've had many "disagreements" with staff when they've requested something that is hugely inappropriate, ill-founded, and simply not necessary - I'll stick to my guns & they tend to go away very annoyed that I didn't give in, spurting about me ruining their T&L etc. - when the truth is that they're simply misinformed and just being plain awkward. However, we're all aware that there are some NMs who are awkward and unreasonable just for the sake of it. From what we've heard, this is one of those cases. Short of the NM coming forward with some huge revelation on the matter, it seems an open and shut case to me.

 

Now, if the poster had come out and said - "I want it available because I think MS is a monopoly and OO is just so superior, so I won't use anything but, you must give it to me else I can't use Office apps for teaching because I refuse to" - then the school and NM would be quite right in their current response. However, in this case, he's providing a clear and consise case for why the software is required WITHIN his department only, and as such, especially if he takes all responsibility away from IT Services, refusing the request simply smacks of being pig-headed, obtuse, and highly ill informed.

[mac_shinobi]

You can run it from a Pen Drive. Just don't tell him

 

http://portableapps.com/apps/office/openoffice_portable

 

I was thinking that - with regards to portableapps and running Open Office from a memory stick / pen drive.

[GrumbleDook]

In my opinion the NM has every right to refuse to install Openoffice. I think that if a teacher asked for it here we'd probably refuse it on the grounds that we have an equivalent product (MS Office) that has all of the functionality of openoffice. I would also argue against it on the grounds that it would confuse staff by having 2 systems that do the same thing. That and there's no guarantee that all of the plug-in macro's and add-on programs (mathtype) would work in openoffice. It also introduces the potential for compatability issues between documents made using difference software. eg. I could see staff saving document in OO file format then other staff wondering why they cant open them in MS Word!

 

Naff arguement. If you bent over backwards to stop staff from ever becoming confused then you should never let them see anything from any Govt department, the LA or any unions.

 

The whole National Curriculum is trying to get students used to the idea that there are skills, concepts and that they have to understand what to use and when. There are additional things where it can be tied into vocational courses and work-related learning. Staff *have* to get used to being able to change because the rate of change within education is fast ... either they have to learn to adapt or they will go under, taking students with them. If it was a teacher digging his/her feet in about having to learn a new prodeuct they we would be scathing about it ... but because it is an NM it is ok? I think not.

 

At the end of the day it makes much more sense for the school to standardize on a single Office application to ensure compatibility and simplify technical support/training. I'm not going say one's better than the other but if the NM/Headmaster have decided on an Office Suite for the whole school to use I don't feel you are really in a position to demand an alternative just because you don't like what the rest of the school's using.

 

But what about those students who don't use it at home due to cost or choice? Do you force them to buy MS Office? I don't think it is about MS office or OOo being better ... it is about allowing both to exist together.

 

I would agree with you in saying that there aren't any security issues associated with open office (or open source software in general). We use plenty of opensource applications but I feel that where there are 2 products offering similar functionality a business/school needs to make a call and pick one or the other.

 

Good point ... perhaps an examination of the school network to see if other free software is being used might blow the whole idea about OSS being insecure out of the water.

[PEO]

You are serious? There is definitely a need for two versions of most software ... it is not only about personal choice but about students (and staff actually) learning to be able to move from one system to another, or one application to another with little or no problems.

 

Transferrable skills (buzzword alert!) are actually about people being able to take skills and concepts from one task and use them in other situations. This makes learners (students *and* staff) more independent. The more independent they are, the more they can think for themselves ... the more competent and confident in ICT they become.

 

The upside of this is that you are less likely to get stupid calls about why powerpoint won't open that funny file called newbie.pages. (yeah .. I know, the .pages files is actually a containing folder and that is how it appears on a Windows box, but you get the idea!)

 

I would say that it is extremely important that skills and concepts are taught rather than specific applications.

 

 

cheers for putting me straight what would we do with out you ;-)

[GrumbleDook]

cheers for putting me straight what would we do with out you ;-)

 

Probably give up pizza and coke ... oh, and decide that Mattx is right about Apple ;-)

[ZeroHour]

This is all about user preference and not "needs" of the department and on that grounds I personally I would refuse too. Surely if the point is transferable skills then where are the skills he learned from openoffice being transferred to ms office. If it was fully transferable then why should he care what he uses. You dont need both to gain transferable skills either. I personally only had used ms office up till recently and even though I was taught this app alone I could very easily apply the same principles to OO. Things were just really in a different place with certain different terminology. I did not need to use both applications to gain this skill, it was just inherit due to being trained in standard office princiles although they were applied to MS Office. Transferable skill are not application dependant and teaching any application that has a fairly standard approach will do and it does not need to be OS to be "standard". Just because its free it does not make it the one to teach. Each place has different requirements but these things should be standard across the school and not what the user prefers. Imagine writing all the documentation for both for staff to use. We have to spoon feed a lot of staff here as it is but it would be doubled if we had 2 office applications.

 

We dont care what students use at home, its their choice. All they need to know is that it must be office compatible output they make. Some use apple software, some use OS, and some even use works! either way both parties can work/handle MS office.

 

Having differences in departments is not a good thing to do when it comes to "standard" software used across the school. For this general software the approach imho should be for the whole school and not per department. If its standard anyone can use it as they have been trained, if somewhere else was different we would have to prep staff to the possibility of covering a class in there and finding differences.

 

All this is before you get to the political stuff of "I have it and you dont - haha". Standards are good and for some things should be applied across the board and not by user preference.

 

Just my $0.02 on what I would feel if I was NM there.

[t20racerman]

In my opinion the NM has every right to refuse to install Openoffice. I think that if a teacher asked for it here we'd probably refuse it on the grounds that we have an equivalent product (MS Office) that has all of the functionality of openoffice.

 

And does MS Office open .odt, .ods and .odp files? If it did perfectly, without format loss, I'd have absolutely no complaint. :-)

If not, then it is no help.

 

Is MS Office also free to all those students who need an Office suite?

 

At the end of the day it makes much more sense for the school to standardize on a single Office application to ensure compatibility and simplify technical support/training. I'm not going say one's better than the other but if the NM/Headmaster have decided on an Office Suite for the whole school to use I don't feel you are really in a position to demand an alternative just because you don't like what the rest of the school's using.

 

Please re-read my original posting - this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the rest of the school, just 3 PCs in my department. All the staff in my department are fluent with both MSOffice and OOo. We wish to retain M$ Office as the default for Office programs

 

I would agree with you in saying that there aren't any security issues associated with open office (or open source software in general). We use plenty of opensource applications but I feel that where there are 2 products offering similar functionality a business/school needs to make a call and pick one or the other.

 

Thank you - I joined this forum to ask technically literate IT professionals, working in Education to give an opinion on the TECHNICAL problems associated with OOo on a network. All the reasons I have been given against OOo at my school are supposed technical issues and I came her to be enlightened.

[Proactive]

Please re-read my original posting - this has absolutely NOTHING to do with the rest of the school, just 3 PCs in my department.

 

Doesn't work like that though I'm afraid. You make an exception for one department and all the others want something else then. I'm afraid you've got to have consistancy across the network.

 

And as for MS office not opening OOo format docs, then just save those docs to be word compatible.

[sfoord]

I can't see any problem with install Open Office for your department to use, as has been already said it like any other piece of software. From what you have said your NM seems to be saying he would not install any Open Source software at all! There is a lot of OS software out there, which the LEAs will tell the schools to install, for example Audacity is used by most music departments with the blessing of the LEAs advisors..

 

I have installed both MS Office & Open Office together on a number of schools network will out any problem. Open Office is easier then most education software to install on a network anyway.

 

I had one special school I had the same request from 2 members of staff who want to use open office this is going back about 4 /5 years ago and the school was still running NT Server, so I downloaded the portable open office installed it onto a network share and put the icon on the staff desktop, about 5 min work. All the files are installed into that one directory & the program runs from there without install any files on the clients.

 

Ok not that fasted to open but for only 2 users fine!! Also easy to upgrade as only one set of files to do!! Now will Windows 2003 I would just use an msi to install it over the whole network.

 

I would asked your NM to do the portable open office to a network share, or a portable open office install to a directory on each PC in your department, that way no files are install into the reg or windows system folders on any of the PCs and any problem you just delete the directory and its gone.

 

Hope this help..

 

Ste