RMT ASLEF and Southern - Time to go!

[CAM]

Argus hits the nail on the head perfectly.

Enough is enough - end this train misery (From The Argus)

 

This has turned from a dispute over guards to an outright political bunfight against the operator and the government. Southern keep stoking the fires and both the RMT and ASLEF have declared open war not just on the train company, but against the people of Sussex and Surrey.

 

There is no way I would touch the trains to commute to work due to the strikes, but the traffic spills on to the M23 and Croydon and makes my own journey to work hell. Even at the weekend, I am forced to wait over an hour at a freezing cold station by Thameslink who aren't even involved in the strikes for a train that is cancelled or delayed thanks to poor timetabling. Add in the poor state of the Brighton mainline with broken rails and damaged infrastructure, and the idea of Southern having control of the maintenance and upgrade work terrifies me.

 

GTR are clearly too incompetent to handle such a busy route and the unions are too heavy-handed in their approach, with the wilful and deliberate targeting of events and the people of Sussex. From the crowds forced to wait at Falmer to the people forced to quit their jobs (willingly or unwillingly) due to the terrible service. It's time all three were reined in and brought to task over the lives they are destroying across the county.

 

/RANT (Not BTRD because the RMT, ASLEF and GTR should frankly see this and pay attention to the damage they are doing with their bickering).

[CAM]

As if it couldn't get any worse....

 

Schools in Sutton, Croydon, Kent, Surrey and Sussex need to make contingency plans for next week and the second week of January. Southern trains are being shut down entirely.

Travel advice for driver strike : Southern

[zag]

Southern have done nothing wrong at all, this is entirely caused by striking workers who know full well that if they don't battle this, conductor-less trains will be introduced all over the country and they will loose their jobs.

 

Running an efficient railway is the key to keeping costs down and investing in new services.

 

I have no idea why people blame a rail company in this situation... I wish people would turn their anger on the RMT union instead.

[unixman_again]

I heard somebody at the station today say "The one thing that you can rely on with London Midland is that the train will be late" and I thought how true. While no where near as bad as Southern, I don't know why LM publish a timetable. The trains are usually 5 minutes late, which is enough to miss the connection. On the Stourbridge line, there are three stations Lye, Old Hill and Langley Green, where only every other train stops and when they cancel a train, it is always the one that stops at every station. When this happens, you are delayed by 30 minutes.

 

I think the answer to the railway malaise is simple :

• Renationalise the railway - private operators are really only interested in profit
  
• Proper investment in the network - more money = better infrastructure = more efficient network
  
• Fully automatic trains - much easier to implement than driverless cars, and the technology is largely proven
  

 

Obviously this isn't going to happen.

[john]

The thing is conductor-less trains do exist and are all over the place already so its all a bit late to be campaigning against it. I use TfL Rail (formally an AGA route) and its conductor-less, all services near as makes no odd out of Liverpool Street are conductor-less and this is the same on other mainline stations its just how technology has improved over the years, train CCTV on doors / edges etc all helps. London Overground shows that all carrages have CCTV to the driver so you can see the doors and platform CCTV monitors show the edges etc... its just progress sadly. Also in this instance no-one is loosing a job so just stop making a mess of things and move on.

[zag]

The thing is conductor-less trains do exist and are all over the place already so its all a bit late to be campaigning against it.

 

Yep and that's exactly the point of this dispute. The unions are trying to hang on, they know they can win and keep putting on the pressure.

 

I believe it worked up in Scotland and the train company relented in the end keeping the guards after similar strikes.

 

Sad really the unions can hold customers hostage like that

[Domino]

Southeastern aren't even having any strikes and their service is just as bad at the minute

[LeMarchand]

Surely a train needs more than the driver? Who is going to answer queries, check tickets and "police" the train?

[Domino]

Surely a train needs more than the driver? Who is going to answer queries, check tickets and "police" the train?

 

My Morning and Evening trains are shoulder-to-shoulder full of passengers...so, I guess, it's policed by inertia?

[CAM]

It's just a conductor strike today and it took an hour and a half to do a 40 minute drive to work because of the extra traffic.

 

Policing is done by Oyster, ticket barriers and specialist officers who travel the services checking tickets (normally a jobsworth of nasty temperament flanked by two intimidating BTP officers). The conductor checks tickets but tends to be more understanding and lenient if you are polite to them.

 

Southern say they will still be on the train but no longer dispatching it. RMT say that the "on-board supervisor" will eventually disappear and deem it unacceptable and "dangerous" to passengers. Southern responded with a bonus payment to those who accept the new contracts after serving notice to terminate the old ones, but with the proviso that they stop taking part in strike action. RMT told it's members to accept the new contracts and continue striking. This led to Southern saying they aren't going to pay any backdated pay for overtime for those on strike until they settle the financial mess caused by strike action. RMT responds by accusing Southern of bullying and they go back to making a bigger mess with more strikes.

 

It's a vicious circle and there is no end in sight at the moment. The government of course refuses to get involved even though local MPs are saying that businesses are folding and people's lives are being ruined. I'm already thinking of quitting for somewhere closer to home due to the strikes and I don't even use the trains.

 

Oh and apparently those living on the Brighton Mainline are being refused job offers in London due to the strike action as they can't get to work!

Edited December 8, 2016 by CAM

[zag]

Surely a train needs more than the driver? Who is going to answer queries, check tickets and "police" the train?

 

Most stations have barriers these days so ticket checking is irregular at best. The small station I leave from doesn't, but the big station does so I need to buy the correct ticket.

 

Everybody has smart phones these days and the social media responses by the train companies is actually really good now.

 

As for policing the train, I really don't think thats needed. Its just public transport at the end of the day. A to B, get on get off. Get rid of as much human interaction and it becomes cheaper and more efficient for passengers.

[unixman_again]

Everybody has smart phones these days...

 

I don't! The only phone that I have is the one that is attached to my living room wall.

[LeMarchand]

Most stations have barriers these days so ticket checking is irregular at best. The small station I leave from doesn't, but the big station does so I need to buy the correct ticket.

 

Everybody has smart phones these days and the social media responses by the train companies is actually really good now.

 

As for policing the train, I really don't think thats needed. Its just public transport at the end of the day. A to B, get on get off. Get rid of as much human interaction and it becomes cheaper and more efficient for passengers.

 

Well, I rarely travel by train but on those occasions that I do I see plenty of people who appear to be fare dodging.

 

I have a smart phone, but don't use social media. Older passengers may not even have a smart phone.

 

Policing not needed? I must be getting the wrong trains!

 

Agree that less human interaction will lead to lower costs, but not sure about efficiency necessarily improving and almost positive that the savings won't be passed on to the passengers.

[crc-ict]

It's a vicious circle and there is no end in sight at the moment. The government of course refuses to get involved even though local MPs are saying that businesses are folding and people's lives are being ruined.

 

Is it not the case, though, that the Government can't really intervene on this because Southern's introduction of DOO is actually a franchise commitment. It would be a little harsh to take over the franchise because the company was trying to introduce something that their agreement with the Government obliged them to do!

 

In my view, this all comes back to the power that the Unions have been allowed to re-gain. Blackmail isn't tolerated in any other aspect of society, so why in the labour market? Employers aren't allowed to make unreasonable demands on the threat of firing (there would be tribunals, unfair dismissal cases etc), so why are employees allowed to refuse to work unless the employer does what they want?

 

Should we all say that we aren't going to come to work any more unless the schools promise to not buy any more iPads and provide a pack of hobnobs a day for each techie?

Edited December 8, 2016 by crc-ict

[LeMarchand]

In my view, this all comes back to the power that the Unions have been allowed to re-gain. Blackmail isn't tolerated in any other aspect of society, so why in the labour market? Employers aren't allowed to make unreasonable demands on the threat of firing (there would be tribunals, unfair dismissal cases etc), so why are employees allowed to refuse to work unless the employer does what they want?

 

Should we all say that we aren't going to come to work any more unless the schools promise to not buy any more iPads and provide a pack of hobnobs a day for each techie?

 

Having been on the receiving end of some employment law shenanigans, it's not that difficult to get rid of people/change job description/remove perks etc. Obviously the unions are trying to keep their members in work; I'm struggling to see how else they can get their point across without striking. As for "too much union power", I'm not advocating a return to the sort of systems lampooned in "Carry On At Your Convenience" but TPTB would like nothing more than to destroy unions. That way there will be no organised resistance to any changes that they decide to foist upon their staff in the future.

[crc-ict]

Having been on the receiving end of some employment law shenanigans, it's not that difficult to get rid of people/change job description/remove perks etc. Obviously the unions are trying to keep their members in work; I'm struggling to see how else they can get their point across without striking. As for "too much union power", I'm not advocating a return to the sort of systems lampooned in "Carry On At Your Convenience" but TPTB would like nothing more than to destroy unions. That way there will be no organised resistance to any changes that they decide to foist upon their staff in the future.

 

Fair enough point, but there has to be a limit surely? In this case, the fact that these changes have been agreed, and through the contract mandated by Government has to count for something doesn't it? Unless we are going down the road of respect for / trust in the Government, but that is a whole other story.

 

I completely get that employees need to be able to stand up for their rights, but how can anything move forward if self-interested groups like Unions (which no-one can deny that is primarily what they are) can block absolutely anything they choose by this sort of action? At the moment, with the right votes, there would be nothing to stop a Union calling an all out strike over a change in toilet paper brand in the staff facilities, or a change in coffee blend. And that can't be right, certainly where public services are concerned.

[LeMarchand]

Fair enough point, but there has to be a limit surely? In this case, the fact that these changes have been agreed, and through the contract mandated by Government has to count for something doesn't it? Unless we are going down the road of respect for / trust in the Government, but that is a whole other story.

 

I completely get that employees need to be able to stand up for their rights, but how can anything move forward if self-interested groups like Unions (which no-one can deny that is primarily what they are) can block absolutely anything they choose by this sort of action? At the moment, with the right votes, there would be nothing to stop a Union calling an all out strike over a change in toilet paper brand in the staff facilities, or a change in coffee blend. And that can't be right, certainly where public services are concerned.

 

Did the union agree to these changes? If they did, not sure why they're striking and agree with you.

 

Disagree about the suggestion that the rail network is a "public" service. It should be, IMHO, but it's currently run for profit.

[unixman_again]

London Midland have come up with an answer to overcrowding on trains Rail bosses tell passengers: 'Don't catch our trains' - Birmingham Mail

[crc-ict]

Disagree about the suggestion that the rail network is a "public" service. It should be, IMHO, but it's currently run for profit.

 

That is, of course, an excellent point which I agree with completely.

[Ketlane]

Some random thoughts on this, part driven by the family using more long-distance trains than in the past:

 

The DLR has no drivers on its trains.....as is the case with many more metro systems than I thought! ASLEF might well be worried as well as RMT.

 

Ronald Reagan outbluffed the ATC unions when he fired the lot. I wonder....

 

And although there is a lot of overcrowding and delays and things, the railways are now carrying many more passengers than at privatisation: ORR quote: "Passenger journeys

in Great Britain reached 1.69 billion in 2015-16, the highest recorded figure since the series began and an increase of 129.8% from the 735.1 million recorded at privatisation in 1994-95."

 

Interesting data on subsidies at https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/rail-subsidy-per-passenger-mile

[CAM]

M23 was at capacity today, tomorrow is going to by abysmal. Croydon is already screwed and will be at gridlock.

 

And AFAIK you can't get sacked in this country over union sanctioned action.

[TechMonkey]

As much as I think this is FUBAR I think you can't blame the Unions entirely. There are lots of reports of trains being cancelled when there are multiple crews signed on and sitting in the crew room waiting for assignment. Southern Trains are playing silly blighters, in all likelihood with the blessing of the government.

[CAM]

They don't do themselves any favours with the frequency of their strikes though. There was a period where tube strikes on Boxing Day were the norm and the RMT are already talking about strike action over the Network Rail changes before this round of industrial action has even taken place! Given the disruption they cause combined with their deliberate targeting of passengers and events, is it no wonder people have little sympathy for them?

[Ketlane]

Strikes are fundamentally a trial of strength and part of the bargaining process. Where an employer is one of several competitors in an industry, a strike will mean real losses as market share goes to the competitors. In situations where there is relatively high unemployment and the jobs are relatively unskilled, the employer can effectively tell striking workers that they will be replaced, so a strike is perhaps risky. In the case of Southern, there is no competing railway line or company, so the employer does not suffer so much. And the jobs are reasonably skilled, with low unemployment. It is the customers who suffer, caught in the cross-fire.

[zag]

They don't do themselves any favours with the frequency of their strikes though. There was a period where tube strikes on Boxing Day were the norm and the RMT are already talking about strike action over the Network Rail changes before this round of industrial action has even taken place! Given the disruption they cause combined with their deliberate targeting of passengers and events, is it no wonder people have little sympathy for them?

 

They strike on those days because they know union members will more likely join the strike to have a day off during the holiday season.

 

It is no co-incidence these strikes happen at weekends, bank holidays or over Christmas