Google Schools

[NotSoFast]

We use Progresso as our MIS (web based). User training really isn't an issue. It's a lot cheaper than SIMS. Api links directly to Groupcall, MLS, School cloud room booking etc etc.

[jmak]

Using Windows Server Datacenter licenses as an example, if Microsoft effectively increase prices by 20% each year between now and 2018 that would only make the cost of each license ~£132 more expensive in 2018 (£299.27 > £359.12 > £430.94).

 

www.edugeek.net/forums/licensing-questions/165618-microsoft-reply-your-mou-questions.html

 

I'm happy with where we're going through to 2018 and intend to sort a 3 year subscription at that point, so there's time, but if I'm considering something radical as this I need to allow plenty of time. As mentioned above, if I switched it on overnight and removed MS, I'd probably be lynched.

 

I was on the call which Edugeek set up with MS and it was very helpful and I remember the comment you quoted. However, my take away message from the call was "expect it to get a lot more expensive". They specifically told us that the UK was the only country in Europe where schools benefit from such big discounts. They talked about their strategy of moving us to the cloud to reduce TCO, but that doesn't add up for small schools - we only have one physical server. I also couldn't get anything that gave me certainty about prices for client OS and Office licences.

 

Unless I can get certainty, I think I need to plan for life without cheap MS licencing and with budgets here continuing to fall, that means life without MS.

[mjk]

I was on the call which Edugeek set up with MS and it was very helpful and I remember the comment you quoted. However, my take away message from the call was "expect it to get a lot more expensive".

When I read that I couldn't help but think of the £1bn investment that Google committed to the UK this week, coupled with the derisory comments made on this very forum when chromebooks were first released. You probably need MS less than you think you do.

[nathan]

Using Windows Server Datacenter licenses as an example, if Microsoft effectively increase prices by 20% each year between now and 2018 that would only make the cost of each license ~£132 more expensive in 2018 (£299.27 > £359.12 > £430.94).

 

www.edugeek.net/forums/licensing-questions/165618-microsoft-reply-your-mou-questions.html

 

Which begs the question, is it worth the move over or just pay the extra £132. Or as it's an infant school just but standard and use 2 virtual servers

[TechMonkey]

Some do, some don't. Often, they have automated integration with SIMS but if using something else, you have to export to CSV and then import.

[/Quote]

ISAMS is very well integrated plus you can use the API to access or go direct with SQL if you are on site. From your list I know Salamander and Room Booking System definitely do.

 

That would be essential if we were to move. It would still be an enormous commitment of time, and that would cost far more than the training. Also consider the ongoing training; we often find with new staff we can say "do you know how to use SIMS?" and they say "yes". I suspect this would not happen nearly as frequently if we said "we use ISAMS" or "we use Integris" or even "we use CMIS".

But you just make it part of the ew staff on boarding process, a half hour basic training with the MIS, create PDF walkthroughs and offer regular training. Knowing SIMS and knowing how to use it properly or how the school wants them to use it are two very different things.

 

The thing to do would be run an exercise, how much does SIMS cost, hardware and all, how much could another system cost. How much training would be needed to change and then work out over what period the cost works out. I can't remember the exact costs of SIMS apart from lots but I bet alternatives would give you a nice wodge to play with to put towards training.

 

PM me if you would like to compare costs, we are on the verge of a change so have figures to hand.

[nathan]

ISAMS is very well integrated plus you can use the API to access or go direct with SQL if you are on site. From your list I know Salamander and Room Booking System definitely do.

 

 

But you just make it part of the ew staff on boarding process, a half hour basic training with the MIS, create PDF walkthroughs and offer regular training. Knowing SIMS and knowing how to use it properly or how the school wants them to use it are two very different things.

 

The thing to do would be run an exercise, how much does SIMS cost, hardware and all, how much could another system cost. How much training would be needed to change and then work out over what period the cost works out. I can't remember the exact costs of SIMS apart from lots but I bet alternatives would give you a nice wodge to play with to put towards training.

 

PM me if you would like to compare costs, we are on the verge of a change so have figures to hand.

 

Isn't iSAMS secondary only though?

[jmak]

Which begs the question, is it worth the move over or just pay the extra £132. Or as it's an infant school just but standard and use 2 virtual servers

Absolutely not, but as in my opening post, that's not my interpretation of what to expect. In 2018, yes, but I'm pretty sure that the MS rep on the call suggested that they wanted to align UK discounts with what they offer in Europe, i.e. ~10% to 20% discount on standard pricing. We're supposed to be using the interim period to plan our move to the (MS) cloud. The way I interpreted their vision of the cost model is that we'd get rid of almost all of our on premise servers and the cost saving of moving those to Azure (although no actual price was discussed - just a general "don't worry, it'll be alright") would compensate for not getting any significant discount on licencing for the one or two physical servers we'd still need on site. Unfortunately for small schools which currently only have one or two servers on site, we'll get none of the savings, just a big fat price increase. I hope that there will be some special arrangement forthcoming, but they weren't prepared to commit.

 

The big hit won't be the server licence itself, but the CALs. If a standard CAL costs about £40 per device today (and we have approx 200 devices), what will that translate to in an EES style agreement?

 

At the minute I think my preferred strategy is:

 

Now: move as much data to Google Suite. Replace desktop applications with web based services wherever possible.

 

Plan for all new student devices to be Chromebooks

 

2018: replace current server with one spec'd to run as a DC only and keep less critical roles like WSUS on old hardware.

 

Renew 3 year EES agreement

 

2020: be ready to ditch MS altogether

 

I can always pull back from making the switch at the last minute, but moving away certainly isn't something I could manage overnight.

[nathan]

I've not brought any CALS for ages but do they really cost £40 each? I think I paid around £3- £4 last time

[3s-gtech]

Windows CALs (at least standard desktop ones) aren't £40. That's the cost of a single FTE license including OS, Office and CAL under EES. CALs are not that expensive.

[jmak]

I've not brought any CALS for ages but do they really cost £40 each? I think I paid around £3- £4 last time

 

Windows CALs (at least standard desktop ones) aren't £40. That's the cost of a single FTE license including OS, Office and CAL under EES. CALs are not that expensive.

That's the current non-education pricing. Until MS commit to a post-2021 pricing structure for education I don't see how I can plan on any other basis.

 

"It won't be the same as government or corporate" is not reassuring enough for me.

 

I'm also trying to work out what is possible and realistic - if there's a workable solution that's significantly cheaper, why wouldn't I recommend a change? If I investigate the options and find there's no realistic alternative, then I need to warn SLT in advance that they're going to have to find a lump more money.

 

That's really the point of this thread; I'm not hell bent on the notion of ditching MS - I want to find out if it's possible and what the implications would be.

[localzuk]

That's the current non-education pricing. Until MS commit to a post-2021 pricing structure for education I don't see how I can plan on any other basis.

"It won't be the same as government or corporate" is not reassuring enough for me.

I'm also trying to work out what is possible and realistic - if there's a workable solution that's significantly cheaper, why wouldn't I recommend a change? If I investigate the options and find there's no realistic alternative, then I need to warn SLT in advance that they're going to have to find a lump more money.

That's really the point of this thread; I'm not hell bent on the notion of ditching MS - I want to find out if it's possible and what the implications would be.

They've already been clear to be honest. They've said that EES pricing will be the same across EMEA. The UK has previously always had specially reduced pricing on top of the usual academic pricing. So, academic pricing is already vastly cheaper than govt and corp pricing, just that its not going to be UK special academic pricing.

[jmak]

They've already been clear to be honest. They've said that EES pricing will be the same across EMEA. The UK has previously always had specially reduced pricing on top of the usual academic pricing. So, academic pricing is already vastly cheaper than govt and corp pricing, just that its not going to be UK special academic pricing.

Can you give me an idea of what EMEA academic price for the equivalent of a desktop package is (OS, client CAL and Office) and server standard licence?

[3s-gtech]

Off the top of my head, our last renewal was £35 per FTE for the desktop package, with Server coming in at £70 or. Datacentre just over £200. They've jacked the prices since then by 20% or so.

[Arthur]

Can you give me an idea of what EMEA academic price for the equivalent of a desktop package is (OS, client CAL and Office) and server standard licence?

These were the prices we paid back in July...

 

[b]OVS-ES Desktop Education with SA (Windows, Office & CALs)[/b] - £34.13 (x FTEs)
P/N: 2UJ-00012

[b]OVS-ES Windows Server Standard with SA[/b] - £29.84
P/N: P73-05567

 

and should you need them...

 

[b]OVS-ES Core Infrastructure Server (CIS) Data Centre with SA (2 Processors) (Windows Server DC & System Center)[/b] - £299.27
P/N: FUD-00820

[b]OVS-ES SQL Server Standard Core (2 Licenses) with SA[/b] - £201.11
P/N: 7NQ-00051

[b]OVS-ES Windows Remote Desktop Services Client Access with SA[/b] - £4.44
P/N: 6VC-01517

[jmak]

Those are the UK prices. What I'm trying to find out is what academic prices are in the rest of Europe at the minute. As @localzuk mentioned above, my impression was that they pay significantly more than us currently and that's what our plans should be based on.

[Arthur]

What I'm trying to find out is what academic prices are in the rest of Europe at the minute.

Google the part numbers I posted and you'll find out.

 

These are the Swiss prices (without VAT)...

 

[b]OVS-ES Desktop Education with SA (Windows, Office & CALs)[/b] - [url="http://www.nettopreise.ch/products/22955"]CHF 60.19[/url] ([color="#FF0000"][b]£48.23[/b][/color])

[b]OVS-ES Windows Server Standard with SA[/b] - [url="http://www.nettopreise.ch/de/products/97403-p73-05567-microsoft-windows-server-standard-open-value"]CHF 55.56[/url] ([color="#FF0000"][b]£44.52[/b][/color])

 

Compared to the UK prices in post #39 they are about 41%-49% more expensive.

 

Edit. Here are some more prices from German and Dutch suppliers (also without VAT).

 

[b]OVS-ES Desktop Education with SA (Windows, Office & CALs)[/b] - [url="http://www.portwork.de/pc-und-server/software/buero-u.-organisation/desktop-system-office-cals/669933/microsoft-desktop-education-lizenz-und-softwareversicherung-academic-jahresgebuehr-enterprise-molp-open-value-subscription-stufe-f-win?sPartner=geizhals"]€52.93[/url] ([color="#FF0000"][b]£45.37[/b][/color])

[b]OVS-ES Windows Server Standard with SA[/b] - [url="http://www.beat-it.nl/microsoft-windows-server-standard-open-value-p73-05567"]€50.00[/url] ([color="#FF0000"][b]£42.85[/b][/color])

Edited November 19, 2016 by Arthur

[Ditto]

@jmak - very interesting thread! Here's our story:

 

We are a newish all through school, and use progresso for both primary and secondary. We started with a clean slate for senior/secondary school from the outset 3 years ago. Primary had been open for a couple of extra years beforehand, so there was a relatively small migration from ScholarPack.

 

We are fully signed up to G-Suite for Education and use of Classroom is deeply embedded throughout senior, less so (if any) primary. All staff have a school domain specific google accounts including gmail. All pupils bar Reception have google accounts with email. We also use Google sites, with separate secure areas for Parents, Staff, 'Friends of school' and governors, with permissions managed by google groups.

 

We have a number (~20) of shared Windows PCs/desktops. This includes for all senior staff, office staff, admissions officer, IT technician and myself as data manager. Some have MS Office desktop installed.

 

The single biggest issue that I see if that all PCs/Desktops have a shared Admin account and password - yes, I know! - and I have seen the password on a post note stuck to a monitor for staff that forget!

 

One option being looked at is an LDAP server with individual Windows accounts and most likely an EES contract too. Neither of these are my areas of expertise. I do feel we may be adding a huge overhead to our costs and support overhead.

 

There is a push for installing office more widely. However the only arguments I have heard so far to justify it are that 'some MS documents' are not importing cleanly when converted to the google equivalent. On probing, it would appear to be PowerPoint is the main area of concern. Currently we are server free, mostly WiFi so minimal cabling. In many ways I feel we are in a better position as we started strongly cloud based from the outset. Going towards servers and/or deeper MS engagement instinctively a retrograde step.

 

Could we be 100% Chromebook, staff included? Probably not, but maybe close. If there was a way to deal with the secure Windows logon without a server/MS based solution, that would help. I guess it could be as simple as a common non Admin account and keep the genuine Admin account properly secure, but if anyone has alternative proposal, I'd love to hear them.

[jmak]

@jmak - very interesting thread! Here's our story:

 

We are a newish all through school, and use progresso for both primary and secondary. We started with a clean slate for senior/secondary school from the outset 3 years ago. Primary had been open for a couple of extra years beforehand, so there was a relatively small migration from ScholarPack.

 

We are fully signed up to G-Suite for Education and use of Classroom is deeply embedded throughout senior, less so (if any) primary. All staff have a school domain specific google accounts including gmail. All pupils bar Reception have google accounts with email. We also use Google sites, with separate secure areas for Parents, Staff, 'Friends of school' and governors, with permissions managed by google groups.

 

We have a number (~20) of shared Windows PCs/desktops. This includes for all senior staff, office staff, admissions officer, IT technician and myself as data manager. Some have MS Office desktop installed.

 

The single biggest issue that I see if that all PCs/Desktops have a shared Admin account and password - yes, I know! - and I have seen the password on a post note stuck to a monitor for staff that forget!

 

One option being looked at is an LDAP server with individual Windows accounts and most likely an EES contract too. Neither of these are my areas of expertise. I do feel we may be adding a huge overhead to our costs and support overhead.

 

There is a push for installing office more widely. However the only arguments I have heard so far to justify it are that 'some MS documents' are not importing cleanly when converted to the google equivalent. On probing, it would appear to be PowerPoint is the main area of concern. Currently we are server free, mostly WiFi so minimal cabling. In many ways I feel we are in a better position as we started strongly cloud based from the outset. Going towards servers and/or deeper MS engagement instinctively a retrograde step.

 

Could we be 100% Chromebook, staff included? Probably not, but maybe close. If there was a way to deal with the secure Windows logon without a server/MS based solution, that would help. I guess it could be as simple as a common non Admin account and keep the genuine Admin account properly secure, but if anyone has alternative proposal, I'd love to hear them.

Good to hear of someone making it work. I have a couple of questions for you and a couple of suggestions:

 

Q1: What are you using for dhcp?

Q2: What are you using for DNS?

 

My suggestions:

 

You could investigate Azure AD. You can then have computers in a workgroup, but users would sign in with their own Microsoft account. Obviously requires Microsoft accounts (easy to arrange and free) and I think Windows 10 on the clients (not sure about that, in early investigation stages). Also @angrycomputingteacher runs his Windows clients in a workgroup rather than an Active Directory domain, so he might have some advice about keeping machines secure without a domain.

 

If PowerPoint compatibility is really an insurmountable issue for teachers, you could set them up with Office 365 for free and they'll be able to use the web apps on any device including Chromebooks.

 

Office 365 is free for schools and you can register your own domain name so that usernames could match your Google Suite usernames.

 

I don't know about the cost of Azure AD, but it ought to be cheaper and easier to set up than your own Windows server. You could at least get a free trial to find out if it would work.

[TechMonkey]

Isn't iSAMS secondary only though?

 

Nope. We are a pre-prep and Prep.

[mjk]

e. If there was a way to deal with the secure Windows logon without a server/MS based solution, that would help. I guess it could be as simple as a common non Admin account and keep the genuine Admin account properly secure, but if anyone has alternative proposal, I'd love to hear them.

I think mac server is about £14. That can be setup as a windows domain controller. So can Linux using Samba. Both will do DHCP, DNS, File/print sharing and Windows login.

If you went this route you wound't need an EES agreement at all assuming you already pay for windows licenses when you pay for the computers.

[dloudon96]

What do you do if your internet goes off or something happens where you can't get online?

[FN-GM]

What do you do if your internet goes off or something happens where you can't get online?

 

Backup line? The money saved on servers etc can pay for it. These days its a good idea to have a backup route.

[jmak]

What do you do if your internet goes off or something happens where you can't get online?

 

Backup line? The money saved on servers etc can pay for it. These days its a good idea to have a backup route.

Yep. And we'd manage for quite a while with mobile data tethered from a couple of smartphones....

 

More seriously, if I was teaching, I'd consider having a local copy of my teaching materials for the day. Our SIMS service is already dependent on an internet connection - it's hosted by County.

[Ditto]

Agree with @jmak Not really my area, but I believe we have built in redundancy. As another spark for conversation, has anybody any experience of using Amazon Web Services instead of onsite servers? Has not been an issue in 3 years on 2 sites.

[nathan]

Nope. We are a pre-prep and Prep.

 

Strange, i went to their stand last year at BETT and was told they didn't do primary.