When should I ask for flexible working?

[rom1984]

Hi, I'm after some advice!

 

I'm about to apply for a new job in a secondary school and if I am successful I would only be able to take it if I can a degree of flexible working - basically start at 9:30 one day a week and finish at 2:30 one day a week. This is what I do at my current employment and I just make up the time during the week.

 

What I'm struggling with is when would be the best time to ask a potential future employer if this would be possible. I've thought of the following..

 

 

1) Before I even apply just email and ask if this would be possible in the position. If it's out of the question I wouldn't want to waste there time submitting the application. I'm just unsure if this is proper "etiquette" and the right time to ask given then I haven't even submitted the application at that point.

 

2) At interview stage at the end, if I get an interview of course At least then they have seen me and if they like me then they can decide if I'm worth it.

 

3) If I'm successful and they offer the position, say it then so I have a little bargaining power.

 

Any one have any thoughts or has been in the same situation?

[speckytecky]

At the Interview stage I reckon. Shows initiative and drive.

[Sagima]

I'd have it as one of my interview questions at the end

[jbunoomally]

At the end of the formal panel interview, we always ask "is there anything you'd like to ask us that we haven't covered so far"; this is when i'd expect that sort of conversation to happen.

 

JB.

[witch]

I wouldn't ask until you have been offered the job I'm afraid.

[elsiegee40]

I wouldn't ask until you have been offered the job I'm afraid.

 

I agree with witch. Get the job first.

[rom1984]

I agree with witch. Get the job first.

 

Just out of curiosity why would you wait until the job is offered? I was siding with asking at the end of interview (if I'm invited) so when they come to the decision making on who gets it then at least they can factor in my request and decide for themselves?

 

I'd be easily convinced otherwise though lol

[sparkeh]

I wouldn't ask until you have been offered the job I'm afraid.

 

I agree with witch. Get the job first.

I know that you are both a lot more experienced that this kind of thing but that really surprises me. I would be pretty annoyed to offer someone a job to then have them negotiate the terms. I would much prefer to know upfront what patterns people are available to work and offer the job on that basis.

[abillybob]

I agree with witch. Get the job first.

 

What happens if they then say no?

[elsiegee40]

Just out of curiosity why would you wait until the job is offered? I was siding with asking at the end of interview (if I'm invited) so when they come to the decision making on who gets it then at least they can factor in my request and decide for themselves?

 

I'd be easily convinced otherwise though lol

 

Because securing the job offer in the first place is the hardest part. You don't want to put them off.

 

Negotiating the finer points like any holidays that are already booked or your actual working hours are much easier if they've decided you are the best person for the job and they really want you.

 

Obviously if they ask if you can do those hours then you need to be up front.

[elsiegee40]

What happens if they then say no?

 

Then they say no. And you're looking again. The world doesn't end.

 

If they really want you then reasonable requests will be considered. More often than not, hours on a job advert are put down because they have to be in the JD and not because there's a hard and fast reason.

[Duranis]

Hmmm personally I would ask at the end of the interview but there is definitely a possibility that asking at this stage will hurt your application. If I phoned up to offer someone a job and the first thing they ask is can they change their hours I would probably not be too happy about it. You have put them in a situation were they are either forced to accept the change or they have to undo the decision that had been made to hire you and pick someone else.

 

It's kind of unfair (in my opinion) to apply for a job knowing you will need special conditions and not mention it to them until they have already decided to hire you.

[jbunoomally]

I have to say, i would be a bit annoyed that this wasn't bought up at interview, that they had a specific requirement around the working hours - especially after being given the opportunity to do so. After having spent considerable time interviewing and panel debating as to who should be offered the job. I prefer discussing queries about place on pay scale and hours during the process, as it can help the panel make the decision; i.e; split the job into 2 part time roles, etc.

 

JB.

[speckytecky]

If that's what @witch says then I'll endorse that 100% the lady is ace.

 

I wouldn't ask until you have been offered the job I'm afraid.

[CAM]

I have to say, i would be a bit annoyed that this wasn't bought up at interview, that they had a specific requirement around the working hours - especially after being given the opportunity to do so. After having spent considerable time interviewing and panel debating as to who should be offered the job. I prefer discussing queries about place on pay scale and hours during the process, as it can help the panel make the decision; i.e; split the job into 2 part time roles, etc.

 

JB.

 

Always have a backup just in-case. Employers think the entire process revolves around them to make a decision who to hire, but candidates will say no if they didn't like the interview or the terms offered. Offering the job is just the start of the bargaining process until acceptance is made.

 

Annoying is when someone accepts a job weeks in advance then turns round days before starting and says they changed their mind. Happened twice this term!

[pcstru]

I have to say, i would be a bit annoyed that this wasn't bought up at interview,

Me too. BUT, I would entirely understand why. I'd recommend a slightly different approach. At interview I'd ask about flexible working as a very general question, simply "Do you do any flexible working" [*1]. I would not go further than that. If they say no, then negotiation is not going to be possible so your decision is simple. If they said yes, then if the job is offered, you can have a conversation that does link back to an enquiry you have already made so it is less "out of the blue", more "ok, you said you could do this so would you consider".

 

[*1] - The correct answer should always be "Yes", since DDA requires an employer to make reasonable accommodations but that may or may not help you.

[jbunoomally]

Always have a backup just in-case. Employers think the entire process revolves around them to make a decision who to hire, but candidates will say no if they didn't like the interview or the terms offered. Offering the job is just the start of the bargaining process until acceptance is made.

 

Annoying is when someone accepts a job weeks in advance then turns round days before starting and says they changed their mind. Happened twice this term!

 

Agree ref annoying when someone accepts and then retracts - had that one a few times too! Also agree ref having a backup (that is used when the preferred candidate doesn't take up the offer), but the difficulty can arise when information is given that should have really been considered by the panel before making an offer.

 

I guess this may be a subjective matter, but in my experience, this is how we do it (and how i prefer it!).

 

JB.

[matt40k]

Assuming this is a IT role. I'd asked if they have remote access during the interview stage, try and tease it out. If they haven't, then follow it up with "its a pretty standard 9-5 role then?" - ie you're not going to get calls after you've gone home. If it is, its a strong indication they want someone 9-5 and aren't going to be happy with you doing flexi time. Talk to the receptionist, fountain of information.

 

Stuff like this and extra ££ you'd do once you've been offered the job but before you've accepted. You're unlikely to get a pay rise in the first year - ever, so its worth asking for it when they just want you to start (they'll be fedup with the recruit process at this stage) then a year in when its easier for them to say no then it is to say yes. Its also worth asking about your work pattern - if your always in on Monday early and leave early on Friday (or whatever), that isn't flexi working and its more likely if they're in the dark ages!

 

Anyway, good luck with the job interview!

[witch]

I can see how annoying it would be if the candidate suddenly asks after the job has been offered - in fact I have been in that position as a school governor employing someone

. BUT it is hard enough to get a job at all these days and giving them something that someone on the decision-making team can use in a negative way is not a good idea.

I'm afraid employers do not care about you at all and if you bring up something they perceive as a problem that could be you in the bin.

 

It isn't how things should be, but that's how it is, and if they have offered the job then they have made the decision that this IS the person they want and so they will be more likely to listen to any requests re hours. In this case the alteration is minimal and they would have to have a pretty good reason to deny it.

It is possible to ask leading questions as @matt40k says, but be careful not to overplay your hand

[elsiegee40]

I can see how annoying it would be if the candidate suddenly asks after the job has been offered - in fact I have been in that position as a school governor employing someone

. BUT it is hard enough to get a job at all these days and giving them something that someone on the decision-making team can use in a negative way is not a good idea.

I'm afraid employers do not care about you at all and if you bring up something they perceive as a problem that could be you in the bin.

 

It isn't how things should be, but that's how it is, and if they have offered the job then they have made the decision that this IS the person they want and so they will be more likely to listen to any requests re hours. In this case the alteration is minimal and they would have to have a pretty good reason to deny it.

It is possible to ask leading questions as @matt40k says, but be careful not to overplay your hand

 

I'm still in agreement with witch. Ask if you get offered the job.

 

If they refuse immediately, say you need to think about the offer and promise to get back to them in 24 hours. If there's no change in their position after 24 hours, then turn them down.

[googlemad]

You're worrying too much already (Don't worry I do the same!), you need to get to the interview stage first so get that application in!

[witch]

You're worrying too much already (Don't worry I do the same!), you need to get to the interview stage first so get that application in!

 

What he said^ Although I think I may have said it many times

[TechMonkey]

I was about to disagree with witch and elsiegee but thinking about it and the stages of interviewing and the first question should be are you the right candidate for the position. If yes, they will offer you the job. Now the stage is can you and the employee come to an agreement over pay, terms, etc. If Yes, accept job and be hired. If no, remove offer and go to candidate 2. So don't give them reasons not to hire you until the negotiation stage, if they really want you they will agree your terms or come back with a counter offer.

[aleach2]

As someone who has hired many people into my department at many schools and have asked for things myself in the questions phase myself, its always best to be upfront with the panel.

 

Remember the job has to be right for you as well as you being right for the job. I have often encouraged candidates to come in for a tour of the school before they apply, ask questions. At this point I can let them know the expectations for the role and the candidate can then choose whether or not to apply. They are also free to ask questions like "would you consider part time" or "would the position suit a term time only applicant".

 

My advice is to ask for a tour of the school, ask your questions around flexible working. Get a feel for what they are after, if get a positive reaction then apply. If you get an interview bring your terms to the table at the end of the interview. The rest is out of your hands. If you have put in a good interview then you will be considered for the job.

 

I have hired many people who wanted flexible working hours, part time, term time only, teach as well as do support. I think the person is good for the job and their requirements don't stop them from doing that job then I have no problem.

 

Hope this helps you out.

[Andrew_C]

I'm afraid employers do not care about you at all and if you bring up something they perceive as a problem that could be you in the bin.

This. The people you will be working directly with might care about you, but not HR or manglement.