Point to Point Distance

[Michael]

Hello all,

 

Been looking into Point to Point solutions for a client, however all major providers all have a limit of 28 Miles or 25KM.

 

So the question is simple - hypothetically speaking, I have an Office based in London and an Office based in Birmingham which are 100 Miles apart, how can the two networks be linked together? Anything within 28 Miles seems straight forward, but anything beyond this isn't.

 

How are the likes of Banks and large Corporations doing it? Many thanks!

[Steve21]

Any reason you want it point to point? Large banks/trading companies etc wouldn't be using P2P links they'd have connections direct into the main exchanges.

 

Steve

[Michael]

Point to Point for numerous reasons - the synchronisation of data (for backup purposes), but also the centralisation of Filtering/Safe Guarding etc.. across the whole organisation.

 

I don't know if you can have Point to Point via an Exchange(s) or can you? I guess the end result wouldn't be any different.

[Steve21]

The problem is P2P links over long distances start getting issues with things like curving of earth etc Let alone strength/height/licenses/buildings in way blah blah.

 

You could still have a WAN setup across cables etc, just obviously limited to speeds of the normal net connection (unless you get your own fibre run but at london to birmingham without a goldmine wouldn't consider that haha)

 

No real different to a home VPN logic. One site connects to other merging networks just like a P2P would.

 

Steve

[Michael]

Site to Site VPN is course another option, or indeed a Private Circuit so you can have Site > Exchange > Exchange > Site, which would (by logic) get over the 28 Miles limit.

[Steve21]

Yep, certainly the route I'd be looking at. Also has the added benefit of lets say you get a third site, suddenly you just join the WAN/VPN and it's done.

 

Steve

[FN-GM]

I would probably use MPLS. You will have a connection at each end into a carriers network. The data will then go the length of the country via the carriers network.

[Oaktech]

I think a site to site VPN or private circuit would be your best bet. a P2P or multiples thereof is going out staggeringly expensive by the time you rent space on towers.

[Michael]

So with BT acting as the 'hub' something like this. Would this mean you could still apply filtering centrally from one of the end points?

[Oaktech]

So with BT acting as the 'hub' something like this. Would this mean you could still apply filtering centrally from one of the end points?

 

If it is set up correctly it will just appear as if they were on a bloody great extension lead.

[Steve21]

Depends what your filtering is etc.

 

If it's something like smoothwall/dual firewalls you could effectively have one at each end that replicates across. But direct internet out.

 

If it's a single firewall/system somewhere, you could direct all traffic to that site.

 

Steve

[Michael]

Yes it would be something like Smoothwall, with this specific end point being greater than all the others (in bandwidth).

 

Would this mean everything would appear on the same subnet/range or still individual subnets/ranges per connection?

[SchoolsBroadband]

Hi Michael,

 

we can definitely do this VPLS (layer 2) or MPLS (layer 3).

 

If you wanted a Wave then depending on which carriers are available we can probably also do DWDM but this is quite an expensive option if either end is not already on net with that carrier.

 

Why not pm me the postcodes and speeds you want and I can get you a price?

 

The 25km distance is down to the technology used of BT Ethernet Access Direct or Virgin Media Ethernet Extension products and the cost of them vary on distance up to 25km but is for all purposes a direct fibre.

 

Using MPLS / VPLS takes direct fibre back to the local telephone exchanges and then uses the carrier(s) national network to "glue" the two end points together.

 

This is how we do VPLS / MPLS for large academy trusts which are based in completely geographic areas of the UK. We also do businesses too so do send me a PM

 

Thanks

 

Dave

 

Hello all,

 

Been looking into Point to Point solutions for a client, however all major providers all have a limit of 28 Miles or 25KM.

 

So the question is simple - hypothetically speaking, I have an Office based in London and an Office based in Birmingham which are 100 Miles apart, how can the two networks be linked together? Anything within 28 Miles seems straight forward, but anything beyond this isn't.

 

How are the likes of Banks and large Corporations doing it? Many thanks!

[Michael]

Thanks Dave much appreciated, will PM tomorrow

[Michael]

In such a scenario (essentially a large WAN), would you have a single subnet, or multiple subnets and why?

[Steve21]

If it's just for simple things like filtering etc, i'd stick with separate. As long as each side is configured to point/route to the "filtering bit" there shouldn't be any issue with the separate ones. (No different to multiple subnets within a local network)

 

If you're considering future planning for things like logging onto both sides with same users etc that'll get more interesting

 

Steve

[Michael]

Well regardless how it's done - single subnet or multiple, this is where DNS will play a big role.

 

I'm not 100% sure if you can have the same subnet (either side of the Point to Point link), or if I'm barking up the wrong tree. I'm guessing NAT still plays a role (even with this setup), so wouldn't be very realistic to have the same subnet either end.

[Michael]

I'm just thinking of other possibilities - Direct Phone Links, Linked Door Systems, Linked CCTV... yes Windows itself understands Subnets and Routing etc... but would these additional requirements? Not necessarily.

[FN-GM]

I'm not 100% sure if you can have the same subnet (either side of the Point to Point link), or if I'm barking up the wrong tree. I'm guessing NAT still plays a role (even with this setup), so wouldn't be very realistic to have the same subnet either end.

 

If its a standard Layer 2 point to point, like the BT connections you can have a subnet across the connection. However I wouldn't, You will get broadcast, spanning tree etc going down that link. I would stick a L3 switch on each side and route down the link.

 

If its a standard L2 point to point there will be no NAT either.

Edited June 28, 2016 by FN-GM

[Michael]

Thanks that's very useful - it sounds more like L3 rather than L2, otherwise broadcasting would be possible; but you're absolutely right this wouldn't be required. It's more so keeping the same subnet which for multiple applications makes sense (like the above).

[FN-GM]

We run a WAN with multiple sites here. All have seperate subnets. I have had no reason to share a subnet.

 

if you have a L3 link you have no choice, you will need seperate subnets on each site.

[Michael]

I think I need to have a 'chat' with the likes of BT to properly understand the options. I'm just wary that although Windows itself understands subnets/routing etc... will your typical Door System operate across multiple subnets? I very much doubt it. How do you do things in your setup, with the likes of Door Systems for example?

[FN-GM]

I think I need to have a 'chat' with the likes of BT to properly understand the options. I'm just wary that although Windows itself understands subnets/routing etc... will your typical Door System operate across multiple subnets? I very much doubt it. How do you do things in your setup, with the likes of Door Systems for example?

 

Our Paxton door system is fine across subnets. Works a treat. As long as all the doors and the servers have a default gateway set it should work just fine.

[Michael]

What about Phones and CCTV?

[SchoolsBroadband]

Thanks that's very useful - it sounds more like L3 rather than L2, otherwise broadcasting would be possible; but you're absolutely right this wouldn't be required. It's more so keeping the same subnet which for multiple applications makes sense (like the above).

 

you can do this if your ISP supports VPLS (we do). That allows you to use the same VLAN across multiple sites which can be useful specifically for certain applications or just segregation of traffic such as CCTV which you've mentioned. yes think about broadcast domains but it is possible to stop this happening when used in conjunction with the thing that glues the two circuits together. I'd need to double check but I think we can do this with our hosted Fortigates.

 

Dave