Orlando Gay Nightclub Shooting: 50 killed, Suspect Is Omar Mateen - BBC News

[jinnantonnixx]

Hillary Clinton is calling for a ban on assault-style weapons. This will put pressure on Trump who is very pro-gun and will have to reconcile his position with these events. Edited June 13, 2016 by jinnantonnixx

[LeMarchand]

"I'd bet my AK" seems a little disrespectful given the subject of the thread though.

 

It was meant satirically + as a hedge (as I don't own one, obviously).

[DJ-1701]

Hillary Clinton is calling for a ban on assault-style weapons. This will put pressure on Trump who is very pro-gun and will have to reconcile his position with these events.

 

I doubt it, most of the time during the nomination contest mental health has been stated and pointing out there needs to be better mental health services not tighter gun regulation.

 

While never a bad idea to improve these services to help those who need it, some people are not going to be discovered and personally I believe you have to have tighter gun regulations and vigilance.

Edited June 13, 2016 by DJ-1701

[LeMarchand]

I doubt it, most of the time during the nomination contest mental health has been stated and pointing out there needs to be better mental health services not tighter gun regulation.

 

Are you suggesting free or discounted mental health care for those who need it? Sounds un-American to me! Damn Commie!

[DJ-1701]

Are you suggesting free or discounted mental health care for those who need it? Sounds un-American to me! Damn Commie!

 

I doubt they would suggest free... and there in you bring another valid point!

[Nixon77]

Can someone explain this, I don't get it. Why is Mr Jones acting this way?

 

[DJ-1701]

Can someone explain this, I don't get it. Why is Mr Jones acting this way?

 

Owen, whenever I have watched him in a debate, generally appears to show a lot of passion. I do believe we are missing something from the beginning of this clip that kicked off his agitation.

[6Foot2]

Owen, whenever I have watched him in a debate, generally appears to show a lot of passion. I do believe we are missing something from the beginning of this clip that kicked off his agitation.

 

Somewhat longer clip:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsLIRHUzqvU

[Nixon77]

Somewhat longer clip:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WsLIRHUzqvU

 

Thanks, but I'm still lost. The TV host simply says it's an attack on humans and Owen starts acting like a child.

[DJ-1701]

Somewhat longer clip:

 

Hmmm, strange. They didn't shy away from the fact that it was a LGBT attack and he spent a lot of time mentioning it. I could understand the outburst if they didn't spend any time addressing it... but they did. These horrendous attacks are bound to raise emotions though.

[6Foot2]

Those present:

 

Mark Longhurst (for Sky), Julia Hartley-Brewer, and Owen Jones.

 

It seems that from the perspective of Owen Jones it is wrong to describe this as an attack on humans as members of the LGBT community could be expected to be present in greater numbers than other community members in The Pulse (the club where the attack took place) His point is, I guess, if this were not targeted at LGBT directly then the shooter could have chosen any other venue to attack. He also seems to feel that it is important that this attack on the LGBT community should be highlighted, not played down.

 

Without trying to put words in the mouth of Owen Jones I guess his point could be something like:

If you do not address the real problem how can you find a real answer?

 

Just my first impressions.

[Ephelyon]

Yes... it's almost like it's the flipside of the coin when trying to raise awareness and acceptance of an minority group. When their status is perceived as unequal, they get extra recognition and "sympathy" (if that's the right word) when an atrocity is committed against them. However, as they gain acceptance and are seen as "just normal" - surely what they wanted? - it seems that some people's response to that is to say "well, come on, you've got e.g. gay marriage now, what you do is no longer criminalised, it's recognised that you're not to be discriminated against now, why do you continue to need special status and a label for things like this if we are all, in fact, happy equals?"...

 

I'm not saying I agree with that position, just trying to think through how it might have come about. That's what I generally do when I observe behaviour that I find bizarre at first.

Edited June 13, 2016 by Ephelyon

[6Foot2]

Donald Trump's behaviour could probably described as odd a lot of the time. However, this seems as odd as it gets:

 

Link: Donald Trump hints that Barack Obama may be connected to Orlando gay nightclub shooting | Americas | News | The Independent

 

Donald Trump seemed to repeatedly accuse President Obama on Monday of identifying with radicalized Muslims who have carried out terrorist attacks in the United States and being complicit in the mass shooting at a gay nightclub in Orlando over the weekend, the worst the country has ever seen.

 

“Look, we're led by a man that either is not tough, not smart, or he's got something else in mind,” Trump said in a lengthy interview on Fox News early Monday morning. “And the something else in mind - you know, people can't believe it. People cannot, they cannot believe that President Obama is acting the way he acts and can't even mention the words 'radical Islamic terrorism'. There's something going on. It's inconceivable. There's something going on.”..

 

This may put an end to his chances of election.

[Nixon77]

Donald Trump's behaviour could probably described as odd a lot of the time. However, this seems as odd as it gets:

 

Link: Donald Trump hints that Barack Obama may be connected to Orlando gay nightclub shooting | Americas | News | The Independent

 

 

 

This may put an end to his chances of election.

 

No way, that's another 300k votes.

[6Foot2]

No way, that's another 300k votes.

 

If that turns out to be the case that will make me very sad.

[Ephelyon]

[Pedantry Alert!]

 

How could we possibly measure whether specific statements led to specific votes?

 

[6Foot2]

...How could we possibly measure whether specific statements led to specific votes?

 

My point was that Donald Trump has made a statement today that, I believe, will be shown to have no truth attached to it at all. I hope that the American electorate will be able to see that also. That will then make them disinclined to vote for him. I do not try to put numbers to this, but I think that enough will move away from supporting him that his campaign will fail.

 

If this does not happen then I will be saddened because what Donald Trump has done today is not a statesman-like thing to do. If he were elected what else might he do when the whim took him?

[sonofsanta]

The attacker wasn't an Islamic extremist, it seems, in that he doesn't appear to have been trained, groomed or directed by ISIS. His relatives and his ex-wife have described him as very lacking in his religion. We can only theorise why he claimed it was an ISIS attack (and once he had, of course, ISIS happily took credit), but I suspect it was just to create even more terror. The guy was American and homophobic, and that seems more relevant so far than a last minute claim on the phone that the attack was in the name of ISIS. We don't know, but the anti-Islamic sentiment it's stirring up in America again is disguising the real issues and just leading to more hate. We had such a shortage, y'know.

 

As to Owen Jones: the Sky presenter was needling him and trying to get him to declare if it was a hate crime or terrorism, and Jones was trying to point out it was both, and there is no need to pigeonhole. As he said later in an article, if it had been 50 people shot up in a synagogue, you wouldn't get a Jew on the show and ask them to decide if it was terrorism or anti-Semitism; so why get a gay man on the show and ask him to decide if it was homophobia or terrorism?

 

It's pretty clear it was motivated by sexuality. His father has described how Omar became enraged when he saw two men kissing in Orlando a couple of weeks ago, and it was, after all, an attack a gay club on a Pride night at the end of an LGBT festival. It was clearly targeted. I don't understand why anyone should try to claim it wasn't homophobia--how does that help the situation? Why try and commandeer a community's suffering? (Not aiming that at anyone here, I should be clear, not at all. I'm talking generally.)

 

And with regards to the "we're all humans" debate--the point is that American legislators have been trying very hard to make LGBT people feel sub-human, with all the idiot bathroom legislation etc. Homosexuals are not happy equals in the US right now, despite the marriage decision last year. That's why the Sky News presenter doggedly trying to ignore the sexuality of the victims was so enraging. It's like saying "9/11 wasn't an attack on America because we're all humans!". The context matters.

 

I know too much about this from too much Twitter and it is making me sad and angry.

 

(Oh, and Trump is a vile and terrible human being for using the murder of 50 innocent people to say "I told you so". that man.)

[Ephelyon]

It's like saying "9/11 wasn't an attack on America because we're all humans!". The context matters.

 

Amen!

 

But there was clear tension in the room anyway.

 

Owen at one point wondered out loud why he was being "yelled at", which prompted Julia to say "you wouldn't stop talking, so we had to". Not professional.

 

Julia also said the perpetrator would have been just as horrified by her as "a gobby woman" - I wonder if she was referring to the fact that an ex-colleague of the perpetrator had mentioned he "didn't like blacks, women, lesbians and Jews"?

 

Owen's behaviour was not professional either, although I don't think there was sufficient consideration in the room of his reasons for having an interest in the affair. That being said, I can't really forgive his comment that "you don't understand this because you're not gay" - the tone he used as much as the wording.

 

My fear for him would be that that one comment comes back to haunt him as it spreads across the Internet, with people finding themselves unable to say "only gay people can understand the oppression of gay people", "only women can understand the male-dominated society" or "only black people can understand the hurt caused by the N-word" because of the ridicule that may be piled upon that one interview. Stranger things have happened...

Edited June 13, 2016 by Ephelyon

[6Foot2]

Link: Orlando gunman 'was a regular at LGBT nightclub Pulse' before attack 'and used gay dating apps'

 

...The gunman had scouted the Disney World resort in Orlando as a possible target before he carried out America’s worst mass shooting, report Gordon Rayner, David Lawler and Ruth Sherlock in Orlando.

 

Mateen, 29, and his wife went to the tourist attraction – visited by thousands of Britons every week – in April, with Mateen paying particular attention to the Disney Springs shopping area, which has lower level security than the theme parks, reported People magazine...

[sonofsanta]

Surprising no-one the repression in America is incomprehensible.

 

But then is it a surprise that people try to hide their homosexuality, internalise it, and grow to hate themselves, when the country is so anti-LGBT the UK Foreign Office specifically warns LGBT travellers against going to certain states.

 

On the topic of "was he ISIS", the FBI Director James Comey has said:

At about 2.30am on Sunday morning – half an hour into the attack – Mateen spoke three times to a 911 dispatcher, declaring that he was acting on behalf of the leader of Isis.

 

The gunman also declared his solidarity with the Tsarnaev brothers, who carried out the Boston Marathon bombing in 2013, as well as to Moner Mohammad Abu-Salha, a Palestinian American who worshipped in the same mosque as Mateen in Fort Pierre, Florida, and who carried out a suicide attack in Syria in May 2014.

 

Comey said these various allegiances were puzzling as the Tsarnaevs were not linked to Isis and Abu-Salha was working for the al-Nusra front which was actively in conflict with the terrorist group. “That adds a bit to the confusion around his motives,” the FBI director said.

 

It appears the IS link essentially boils down to inspiration, and radicalisation through reading material online, judging from President Obama's comments (in the linked article).

 

Just a very sad, confused, and angry man, with easy access to assault weapons.

[korifugi]

I'm convinced ISIS are looking to claim responsibility for everything they can...

 

Someone goes off on one and carries out a mass shooting - "That's ours" Shouts ISIS,

 

Plane crashes? "Us" says ISIS,

 

Fire burns out a building in the west? "We do arson now, too" they say,

 

Man falls down well? "Pushed him" they claim,

 

Plant pot mysteriously broken in Lincolnshire? "Infidel pottery" they scream

[ben_mayo]

I'm convinced ISIS are looking to claim responsibility for everything they can...

 

Someone goes off on one and carries out a mass shooting - "That's ours" Shouts ISIS,

 

Plane crashes? "Us" says ISIS,

 

Fire burns out a building in the west? "We do arson now, too" they say,

 

Man falls down well? "Pushed him" they claim,

 

Plant pot mysteriously broken in Lincolnshire? "Infidel pottery" they scream

 

I agree anytime something terrible happens you can be sure a day or two later there's a headline "IS claim responsibility for ..."

[sted]

I agree anytime something terrible happens you can be sure a day or two later there's a headline "IS claim responsibility for ..."

 

which is why terroist groups shouldnt be named in the media it should just be something like "a group of angry nutters blew up a car in x today" no name no message

[Bompalompalomp]

I'm surrounded by the sadness of this, it's horrific and breaks my heart.

 

The communities that I follow have all been personally affected. I was on holiday with my girlfriend when this happened and it was happening the second that it was reported on the news that people I follow on social media were panicking. Drag Queens I know from TV, watch and adore were there as patrons and performers, and were shot at and lost their family and friends.

 

The way that this has been treated in the media is disgusting. Immediately turning to "what does a huge bigot and the wife of the man who signed the DOMA into power have to say to further their campaigns?" rather than helping the community. The blood ban on non-celibate gay men has become ridiculous, to the point where they can't even help their own friends.

 

This could be used to bring attention to the survivors and victims to get them support, but all anyone in the public eye seems to want to do is point the finger at either gun control or islam. LGBT people don't care. Nobody impacted by this wants it politicised. They just don't want to lose more people to violence.

 

Hopefully America will stop arguing about transgender people being the greatest threat to people in public toilets, because that argument should have been dead long before this.