Server Spec req'd

[kearton]

I'm trying to find a decent spec for a server to run W2K3 Server with Terminal Services that will be used for Staff to VPN in to use SIMS.net from both the classroom and home.

 

I've got some info from Capita for one of their VPN solutions (HP ML150 1.6 Quad Core Xeon, 4Gb RAM), but thats only for 15 concurrent connections.

 

We need one that will handle 100 concurrent connections.

Edited January 20, 2008 by kearton

[DMcCoy]

100 concurrent TS sessions is very unlikely, You will need multiple servers

[Geoff]

I spread 75 users over 4x Dell Poweredge 860's (4Gb Ram, Dual Core Conroe Xeon 3060 2.4GFhz CPU) with Citrix Presentation server 4.5

[kearton]

We're looking for solutions to use Lesson Monitor etc from the classrooms (which are on the Curriculum network) and SIMS runs off the Admin network.

 

VPN hardware I've seen tends to come in 25,50,100,250 user flavours, so I used the 100 figure because 50 is too small. 1 for every classroom. That's about 65 to start. Plus anyone else who's connecting...

[localzuk]

You seem to be mixing VPN and terminal servers up here. VPN equipment has a much lower demand on equipment (it's just a form of secure router). A terminal server user will use a lot more resources. I'd say to look at having 30 concurrent users on a dual quad core 2Ghz with 4GB ram - which you should be able to pick up at the moment for about £1300 (HP DL360 G5).

 

They would do the terminal serving. Then you would need some form of VPN provider, so you could either go with the standard microsoft solution or go for something more robust like a cisco based solution (priced accordingly).

 

However, I'd be looking at creating a single forest with 2 domains, so staff can log in on the other machines for accessing lesson monitor. Or, further still, just having 1 domain. Split networks are more effort than they are worth.

[kearton]

You seem to be mixing VPN and terminal servers up here.

No. As per my original post... for use to VPN in to use TS.

 

I'd say to look at having 30 concurrent users

Again, as per my earlier posts, I'm looking for a solution that will handle max 100 concurrent users.

30 concurrent is no good when all 60-70 classrooms all try to connect to use Lesson Monitor.

 

 

I'm not asking for the pros and cons of merging networks etc. That's an option I have to consider aswell, but it's a completely different kettle of fish. The purpose of my original question is to gather information on what spec server hardware I would need for max 100 TS connections.

 

Thanks and have a good weekend.

Edited January 18, 2008 by kearton

[dhicks]

I'd say to look at having 30 concurrent users on a dual quad core 2Ghz with 4GB ram

 

So you figure about 1/4 of a core and 512MB of RAM per user? Sounds like our single-processor, dual-core, 2GB RAM server might be a bit pushed...

 

--

David Hicks

[greenfieldsupport]

unless you have a VERY bad setup

 

you wont need to "VPN" in to use TS

 

unless your servers are stored somewhere else ?

which would be silly, silly i tell you!

 

So your asking for a TS solution, and ONE of the what sounds like several servers you need, will also host VPN on the side...

 

hence why i think people are suggesting what they are to you

 

Hope this helps

 

We dont use TS here, but i imagine the suggestions from geoff and localzuk arnt far off...

 

but every 30 user slot costing you £1300 + cost of a dumb terminal... wouldnt it be alot cheaper just either A. fitting REAL machines, or B. giving the staff laptops?

 

you could still host VPN..

 

I dont think TS is your way forward, although im used to doing things with a small budget...

[kearton]

jeeeez, maybe I should have posted in the FFS section instead....... Edited January 20, 2008 by kearton

[torledo]

I'm trying to find a decent spec for a server to run W2K3 Server with Terminal Services that will be used for Staff to VPN in to use SIMS.net from both the classroom and home.

 

I've got some info from Capita for one of their VPN solutions (HP ML150 1.6 Quad Core Xeon, 4Gb RAM), but thats only for 15 concurrent connections.

 

We need one that will handle 100 concurrent connections.

 

Any thoughts, suggestions, recommendations?

 

Agree with Dave McCoy, you'll probably need atleast x2 two socket quad core servers for 100 concurrent users - you may, just, be able to do it with a single box but only if you went down the intel MP route - so that's a big, expensive DL585 (or Dell equivalent) 4 socket box with LOTS of RAM....

 

Otherwise you'd have to go with 2 or 3 quad-core DL385's / Dell PE2950's with 8GB RAM each....three servers will probably allow you to scale beyond 100.

 

Exact server spec will depend on type of sessions i.e light, moderate or power user/workload....and whether you plan on using any dedicated Thin client terminals.

 

Either solution fully specced inc. internal storage will set you back in the region of £7.5 - 9K......Or you could always go down the blade server route....half a dozen blades in a dell or hp chassis is a good starting point.

 

HTH, btw i agree with you - wish people would just answer you're question the best way they can instead of trying to be clever.

[kearton]

unless you have a VERY bad setup you wont need to "VPN" in to use TS

Regardless of whether you think the setup here is good or bad, it's what I inherited and am currently stuck with. I'm looking into options to change, and to do this right I need some information, such as the specs for server(s) to handle 100 TS connections.

 

So your asking for a TS solution

you're

 

Hope this helps

actually, no. It's just made me grumpier (it's been a bad week. cya, I'm off for a much needed drink...)

 

but every 30 user slot costing you £1300 + cost of a dumb terminal... wouldnt it be alot cheaper just either A. fitting REAL machines, or B. giving the staff laptops?

The staff HAVE real machines in the classrooms. But they're on a different network! If the networks remain seperate then I need to connect to one from the Internet (which would allow Staff to connect to SIMS from both home, and the classroom)

 

I dont think TS is your way forward

As I've already said, I'm NOT looking for anyone elses recommendation for what I should be doing, I'm looking for SERVER SPECS for max 100 TS connections.

 

Thanks again to those who HAVE replied so far with server specs...

Edited January 18, 2008 by kearton
Fixing a typo because I'm pedantic!

[mortstar]

The staff HAVE real machines in the classrooms. But they're on a different network! If the networks remain seperate then I need to connect to one from the Internet (which would allow Staff to connect to SIMS from both home, and the classroom)

 

Domain Trust

 

Edit: For in house connection obv.

Edited January 18, 2008 by mortstar

[DMcCoy]

If you really want to attempt 100 concurrent clients then you are going to have to start pricing something out with 32 or 64 GB RAM and at least 4 quad core cpus. 20-30 Is the usual maximum number of clients suggested for most applications.

 

The only sensible way of supporting that many sessions is with multiple servers.

 

Edit: reduce memory suggestion as its just for sims

Edited January 18, 2008 by DMcCoy

[CyberNerd]

Also consider will sims run on 64bit? because you will need a 64bit O/S to run >4GB . If you actually require one epic server and not smaller ones another solution would be to virtualise on the quad core uber server.

Citrix now offer a virtualisation solution based on XEN.

[CyberNerd]

Edit: reduce memory suggestion as its just for sims

 

you mean increase, as its for sims

[localzuk]

Kearton, I am not going to even bother continuing to help you, as you are too rude to accept the advice of those who give it to you.

 

In your message you say you want a teminal server to VPN into? I said a single server would not be suitable. And that you should be looking at 30 connections *per server*. getting grumpy about it won't make it any different. Ie. It is not reasonable, sensible, or useful to try and cram 100 onto one server.

 

If you feel like you can be professional and apologise for being so rude, then I may answer again, but if not, then I will leave you to it.

[binky]

Kearton,

 

I understand what you want, however even if you are supporting max. 100 connections, 1 server would not be able to support more than 30, simply because a server cannot support that much load, even on modern specs.

 

YOU ARE GOING TO NEED MORE THAN ONE SERVER!

[Oops_my_bad]

I guess he could like.. run a load of virtual servers

 

[kearton]

In your message you say you want a teminal server to VPN into?

Specs for a TS solution capable of 100 concurrent connections.

 

I said a single server would not be suitable. And that you should be looking at 30 connections *per server*.

I think we've both suffered from "*I* understand exactly what I mean but when I write it down it's not interpreted quite how I meant it" syndrome...

 

...

 

Right, so it's looking like multiple servers are going to be required here. e.g 4 x 25 connections, or suchlike. I can hear the bursars purse strings tightening from here...

 

Thanks peeps!

[dan400007]

A bit belated but this is my 2 cents.

 

We currently have a TS server for staff to access Sims for Lesson Monitor and report writing, both within school and via a VPN from home. We average about 70 concurrent connections and runs smoothly. We have just a SINGLE TS server, a DL140 with 2x2.8Ghz XEON and 8Gb RAM, RAID 1 SATA HDD.

 

This has been up an running for the past 2 years. We have now encountered a problem with the amount of RAM needed and will be upgrading to 16Gb and 24Gb in the new financial year.

 

Unless the teachers are going to be doing all their work on the TS, ie word, excel, naff resource hogging educational software then you won't need a TS farm. Providing they are logging on to 'use' sims only a single server will prove adaquate, well it has for me.

[dhicks]

We currently have a TS server for staff to access Sims for Lesson Monitor and report writing, both within school and via a VPN from home. We average about 70 concurrent connections and runs smoothly. We have just a SINGLE TS server, a DL140 with 2x2.8Ghz XEON and 8Gb RAM, RAID 1 SATA HDD.

 

So you figure about 1/10 of a core and 120MB of RAM per user? Yay! Sounds like our single-processor, dual-core, 2GB RAM server might be okay after all!

 

--

David Hicks

[dan400007]

I'd say a good speed dual-core will be ok. The amount of RAM will depend on the number of users. About 120Mb per user is about right, but try and leave some spare. I've found that if a user on sims keeps opening up marksheet after marksheet without closing any they can soon end up taking over gigs worth of RAM!!! Don't see how, it only a spreadsheet really.

 

I don't know about anyone else but I'm sure that the Sims.NET client is starting to eat up more and more RAM when loaded.

 

Oh one last thing, make sure that you remove everything from the startup on the TS. Whats the point of Adobe reader speed launch running if it only there for sims.

[localzuk]

I'd say a good speed dual-core will be ok. The amount of RAM will depend on the number of users. About 120Mb per user is about right, but try and leave some spare. I've found that if a user on sims keeps opening up marksheet after marksheet without closing any they can soon end up taking over gigs worth of RAM!!! Don't see how, it only a spreadsheet really.

 

I don't know about anyone else but I'm sure that the Sims.NET client is starting to eat up more and more RAM when loaded.

 

Oh one last thing, make sure that you remove everything from the startup on the TS. Whats the point of Adobe reader speed launch running if it only there for sims.

 

This is actually a memory leak which Capita know about and it seems to affect the assessment manager module quite badly. The advice we were given was to close and re-open sims after a short period (20 minutes or so) as this will sort out the memory usage.

[boomam]

Interesting thread.

Im looking at ways to provide Sims.net at home for a small number of staff myself.

I was considering a VPN Concentrator based solution, but im wondering if TS would be a better option?

[localzuk]

Interesting thread.

Im looking at ways to provide Sims.net at home for a small number of staff myself.

I was considering a VPN Concentrator based solution, but im wondering if TS would be a better option?

 

The beauty of using a TS is that you then only need to maintain one install of SIMS.net - rather than having clients all over the place.