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[mrwoberts]

Working with a Junior School (270 children) to improve their IT - starting with infrastructure.

They have 80 laptops that all access the network over WiFi, 10 Desktops, and the PowerEdge Server.

I took a look in their main cabinet and this is the network equipment they have.

 

3x 3Com 4200 Switches (28 port)

Only one of them is fully used now due to the physical removal of their ICT Suite last year.

 

1x Networx Smart Switch (24 port + SFP)

Fully used and SFP (Gbit) receives link from separate unit

 

1x HP ProCurve 2520 (24 port...) PoE Switch J9138A

Used as the AP hub and currently links 15 APs with the controller (below) and the rest of the network

 

1x HP ProCurve MSM760

Wireless Controller

 

The separate unit I mentioned has a Networx switch that is almost unused, due to the uptake in all things wireless.

 

Notes:

* I'm told the wireless is a little temperamental, and it would seem that the controller login details were not given to the school and are subsequently not accessible as the support contract come to an end.

* Slow (by perception) network speeds, especially over wireless - and especially with whole class work (30 laptops).

 

I'd like to suggest getting this network upgraded to Gigabit, but I'm now wondering if the relevant HP PoE switch is going to cost them more than they have right now.

I've been looking at the HP 1920-24G-PoE+ (JG926A), but unsure at present whether that MSM760 controller will work with it ???

 

Part of me wants to simplify things here, but would unmanaged switches really cut it??

 

Questions:

- Would a JG926A be a suitable replacement for the J9138A ?

- Is there any way I can access the controller without a hard reset; if not, will the APs retain their config and play happily once the controller is reconfigured ?

- What switches would you recommend to replace the remaining switches (Unmanged, Smart, Managed) ?

 

Your help is much appreciated

Edited April 21, 2015 by mrwoberts

[psydii]

I've run a mid sized secondary school off 1910s

 

They'll be fine.

 

however you might be better off replacing the wifi with ruckus or aruba's newish controller less offering. I hear unify may also be an option.

[ForgotMyPassword]

Hmmm, this is a difficult one to call without knowing the budget available but my two cents says it'll never be a great user experience until the WiFi AND Infrastructure are sorted. Can we assume the clients are in decent health and fairly up to the job?

 

If the majority of clients, sometimes up to 30, are hanging off one ap (?) then you're going to need some decent, well-configured kit - the APs will be hugely over-run otherwise. What about binning the HP setup and looking into Ubiquiti? I have NO experience of it (we use Meru and I've used Cisco stuff in the past) but hear very good things in terms of value for money.

 

If these came in and you brought in something like the HP1910 or better then you'd have a good PoE switch that would allow you to VLAN if the network warranted it (either for security or performance or both!). I'd avoid unmanaged switches as they won't give you the flexibility.

 

TBH, I'd be VERY tempted to look at bringing in a supplier to spec it out for you - pick someone stupidly expensive that you don't want to use, so that when you find something you ARE keen on, it looks good in comparison.

[mrwoberts]

Thanks psydii.

 

I've just been looking at the 1910 and 1920.

HP 1910-24G-PoE 24 Port Gigabit PoE (365W) Switch costs £ 444

HP 1920-24G-POE+ (370W) SWITCH costs £ 515

 

Every penny helps, but I'd also have to replace the other switches, so the costs are starting to climb.

 

Will an unmanaged PoE switch work well in this environment, or would it be something I'd later regret ??

[mrwoberts]

Thanks FMP

 

I'm wondering if the 30 laptops may span neighbouring APs, since there is one in every classroom and only a brick wall between them.

Forgot to mention that the APs are also HP - I forgot to get a proper look at the model, but I can do that later this week.

 

Budget wise, let's just say there isn't any, but if they wanted these problems sorted I'll have to make a strong case and make sure it doesn't come back to bite me - which sent me scouring the Edugeek forum...

I take your point about the supplier input.

Edited April 21, 2015 by mrwoberts

[ForgotMyPassword]

No probs at all! Happy to help. Granted, our setup was NOT cheap (Meru WiFi, HP Switching) but sadly it's often the case that the system is only as good as it's weakest link eh?

[Chris_]

If I was in your situation I'd certainly be looking at the Ubiquiti UniFi wireless products to replace the HP system and possibly even the UniFi switches if you're looking to replace all the switches (Ubiquiti UniFi Switch - 4Gon Solutions).

 

We rolled out a UniFi wireless network across our school and it's been excellent. We used HP POE switches, this decision was because the network was all HP ProCurve gigabit switches so it made sense to stick with the same brand so terminology between switches would be consistent.

[mrwoberts]

Thanks Chris

 

If my memory serves me, I believe they said the WiFi system (and probably the HP switches) are relatively new!! I don't understand why they didn't put in Gigabit switches in that case - possibly budget related

 

At the moment, it would seem the options are...

 

A - Upgrade HP PoE switch and other switches to Gigabit

or,

B - Upgrade entire wireless system and switches (probably more cost than option A)

 

For this scenario, what benefit would the managed switches instantly provide over unmanaged ?

Edited April 21, 2015 by mrwoberts

[ForgotMyPassword]

This is a 'finger in the air' opinion but I'd be suprised if a backbone upgrade actually resulted in significantly improved speeds if your APs aren't up to it.

 

It might be worth spending some time benchmarking - wonder if you could cadge a loan Ubiquiti setup to do some testing? I know Meraki used to give you a free AP for watching their webinar!

 

Don't get me wrong, gigabit backbone is important, no doubt but in terms of having to do the ONE THING that makes a significant improvement, I would be eyeing those APs and trying to do some benchmarking/stress tests.

 

I can't see it helping matters much but I MAY have a couple of 24 port gigabit unmanaged switches (not PoE sadly) in a month or so - yours FoC if you can send a courier to collect. DM me if interested (it's pending signoff so may not happen!) - lack of PoE may mean they aren't any good to you...

 

Cheers,

James

[mrwoberts]

Thanks again James.

If those switches do become available, that may be a big help.

The APs are connecting at N 300Mbps speed to a client; I connected my own laptop and checked the connection stats. I also did a bit of browsing around and fetching/pushing with the Server, but that was after the children had gone home so....

It didn't seem that slow, but I could tell there was room for improvement.

 

I'm really curious how the management side has been configured for the switch and controller of those APs. But since I couldn't login I certainly didn't want to instantly suggest we reset the thing

Edited April 21, 2015 by mrwoberts

[ForgotMyPassword]

If you can get the AP model names, perhaps someone else here will have experience of them? Don't forget that it's density that matters too - contention for aerials can be an issue too, so you're gonna need to do some benchmarking whilst they are being hammered.

[mrwoberts]

Anybody know what would happen if I temporarily disconnect the controller (HP MSM760) ?

Would the APs carry on without the controller, or would I bring the whole lot crashing down

[mrwoberts]

If you can get the AP model names, perhaps someone else here will have experience of them? Don't forget that it's density that matters too - contention for aerials can be an issue too, so you're gonna need to do some benchmarking whilst they are being hammered.

 

You're right. I'll speak nicely to one of the teachers to see if I can monitor a session. I'd also like to establish where the demand is going (internal/external)

[ForgotMyPassword]

Our old HP setup would continue to broadcast the SSIDs but no traffic was served

[mrwoberts]

Our old HP setup would continue to broadcast the SSIDs but no traffic was served

 

Scrap that idea then

 

Finally, at least for tonight, you wouldn't happen to know what the main benefits of a managed switch that would be relevant to us?

Edited April 21, 2015 by mrwoberts

[njc235]

Thanks psydii.

 

I've just been looking at the 1910 and 1920.

HP 1910-24G-PoE 24 Port Gigabit PoE (365W) Switch costs £ 444

HP 1920-24G-POE+ (370W) SWITCH costs £ 515

 

 

Every penny helps, but I'd also have to replace the other switches, so the costs are starting to climb.

 

Will an unmanaged PoE switch work well in this environment, or would it be something I'd later regret ??

 

These prices seem a little high.

[mrwoberts]

Thanks njc

 

I just did a quick search on Misco, to find those prices. What supplier would you recommend?

 

BTW - lovin' your signature

[witch]

@Millgate would be able to do you a good price

[Oaktech]

If you are running HP kit and looking to integrate with new HP, you know what, talk to HP. They will best be able to advise you, they will be able to put you in touch with suppliers who can get you massively supported pricing. I can give you a contact if you need one.

 

I'm running a school with about 500 pupils and 60 staff using about 300 devices entirely off HP 1910 series switches and aside from the annoyance of no telnet/SSH access they are completely fine.

[mrwoberts]

@Millgate - looking at the OP, could you give us an idea of what you best fit this situation, and all the associated costs. PM me if you prefer.

 

Thank you for all your comments so far, it does look like the 1910 series are highly favoured.

Just to make sure, the suggestions so far ....

 

1x 1910-24G-PoE 24 Port Gigabit PoE (365W) Switch JE007A (to replace HP ProCurve 2520 J9138A)

3x HP 1910-24G 24 Port Gigabit Switches JE006A (to replace non PoE switches)

[psydii]

I'd recommend SwitchShop.

[Millgate]

@Millgate - looking at the OP, could you give us an idea of what you best fit this situation, and all the associated costs. PM me if you prefer.

 

Thank you for all your comments so far, it does look like the 1910 series are highly favoured.

Just to make sure, the suggestions so far ....

 

1x 1910-24G-PoE 24 Port Gigabit PoE (365W) Switch JE007A (to replace HP ProCurve 2520 J9138A)

3x HP 1910-24G 24 Port Gigabit Switches JE006A (to replace non PoE switches)

 

Will do

[mrwoberts]

I'd recommend SwitchShop.

 

Just sent them an email. Thanks.

[Muz]

Ubiquiti stuff doesn't do very well in high density setups, I deployed some to a primary school where you could expect 25 Clients per AP doing web browsing and It didn't keep up very well. If you have the budget go for something better.. if not Ubiquiti is as good as you'll get at the lower end

 

The school decided to invest in a Ruckus ZoneDirector and we got some Ruckus 7982's (No support) and they performed much better

[mrwoberts]

Thanks Muz

 

That's rather interesting, because earlier today I was in another school where they use a Ubiquiti wireless system. A similar sized school and they only have 3 APs, however, the system seems to be running without issue. The speed they're also happy with. What's more, I checked the channel usage in this setup and they were all using the same channel, which I thought was going to be an issue, but it isn't apparently. Then, just to check, I wondered if my laptop could see each AP... and it could, with the exception of a few corners around the school.

 

So, my understanding of this is, mileage varies when it comes to different manufacturers. Some have no issues, some have more than their fair share, and the rest are in between. I guess it is also worth looking at how good the after sales support is - I don't have any experience with HP Support, or Ubiquiti.