Ann Maguire Murderer Sentenced

[CAM]

BBC News - Ann Maguire murder: Boy jailed for life

 

Life in prison, 20 years minimum before he is released but the judge says "that day may never been seen."

 

Be warned: the account of the murder is rather horrible reading.

[witch]

Reading about his behaviour makes me wonder why he wasn't deemed criminally insane

[rad]

At least for the family he admitted that he was guilty and they didnt have to go through a lengthy trial listening to the witness statements of students.

 

I feel sorry for those affected by it, classroom of friends, Teachers family, and not forgetting his own parents.

[Little-Miss]

I don't understand why none of the things he apparently said went unreported. He told people he was going to kill her, 'normal' people don't do that...

[teejay]

A very disturbed young man, a bit worrying from some of the information that's come out from the case that he wasn't apprehended before he attacked.

[Alkaline]

I would be interested to see what his childhood was like. Clearly there was a dangerous malfuncion within his head. I refuse to believe someone could be born that messed up. People can be born and susceptible to certain illnesses, But the extent of his behaviour would lead me to believe all was not well before hand. And if that is the case, is he really responsible? He is physically responsible, he did murder her, he is also dangerous and likely can never be released. But is it his fault? The signs were there but ignored, there is certainly to some extent a shared responsibility. Edited November 3, 2014 by Alkaline

[visioN]

is he really responsible? But is it his fault?

 

Yes he is and yes it was!

He didn't have some horrific upbringing, he had it better off than a lot of people around the world who don't do this. You are responsible for your actions.

[Garacesh]

Yes he is and yes it was!

He didn't have some horrific upbringing, he had it better off than a lot of people around the world who don't do this. You are responsible for your actions.

I think what @Alkaline is trying to say is that sometimes events can skew a persons perception of what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' (lest we forget that right and wrong are merely subjective perspectives).. That doesn't make what he did 'not his fault', nor does it condone or mitigate his actions.. There's nothing wrong with speculating about what led him to commit this act - childhood included - because to be honest I have to agree. People aren't just 'born' bad. Something has to influence him that way. And the warning signs certainly were there by the sounds of it. It's not like this was 'out of the blue'.

 

I can't blame people for not taking him seriously when he threatened to kill her, though. I've heard plenty of kids threaten teachers here and you certainly expect them to not mean it. It's always done in an offhanded fashion in the heat of the moment, due to some form of upset or another. Given the things he wrote on facebook, though, might I remind everybody of facebook's stupid 'algorithm' of only showing you updates from the last X amount of people you've had contact with. It's entirely possible hardly anybody saw his statuses. The ones that did may well have not truly known how to react to that, or not wanted to get involved in the dark parts of someone elses mind for fear of it backfiring on them. Maybe they thought "Oh, he's just a bit f:censored:d up, he's not actually going to do anything.. He's just a weirdo."

 

It's worth noting that, according to the article, Prosecutor Paul Greaney QC told the court the boy had "psychopathic tendencies", though it's unclear if this is a medical diagnosis issued previously be a competent profession, or if it's the accusations of a prosecutor. If it was a medical diagnosis, something should have been done a lot sooner. But still, it's entirely possible the warnings weren't seen by those that would know how to respond.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Garacesh

[bennz]

Just read this article:

Justice campaigner says William Cornick's sentence for Ann Maguire murder too long | Daily Mail Online

 

Some Campaigner thinks 20 years is to harsh, makes me feel slightly sick that anyone would suggest such a thing.

[localzuk]

Yes he is and yes it was!

He didn't have some horrific upbringing, he had it better off than a lot of people around the world who don't do this. You are responsible for your actions.

 

If you're mentally ill, then its entirely possible to say you aren't responsible for your actions. However, in this case, the court doesn't seem to have gone down the insanity route, and in the eyes of the law, he is entirely responsible.

 

Just read this article:

Justice campaigner says William Cornick's sentence for Ann Maguire murder too long | Daily Mail Online

 

Some Campaigner thinks 20 years is to harsh, makes me feel slightly sick that anyone would suggest such a thing.

 

It really depends on what you think the purpose of prison is. Punishment alone? Rehabilitation? Protecting the public. Some organisations lean towards the rehabilitation route as the primary and the punishment as a side effect.

 

Personally, I think the guy should be locked up until the point where he is determined not to be a threat - which in this case looks like it may be never.

Edited November 4, 2014 by localzuk

[visioN]

If you're mentally ill, then its entirely possible to say you aren't responsible for your actions. However, in this case, the court doesn't seem to have gone down the insanity route, and in the eyes of the law, he is entirely responsible.

 

So if he was mentally ill, who would be held responsible?

[localzuk]

So if he was mentally ill, who would be held responsible?

 

Depends what you mean by responsible. Directly, he was responsible. But the cause was not his fault, it was whatever mental illness he suffers from. So, you could say "no-one was responsible for the act of murder", in a way.

 

Sometimes, crimes don't have someone that is held responsible - the human mind is susceptible to being broken.

 

That's not to say there shouldn't be a consequence - the outcome would end up being the same, the guy being locked up either in a prison or a mental institution.

Edited November 4, 2014 by localzuk

[SHimmer45]

is he really responsible? He is physically responsible, he did murder her, he is also dangerous and likely can never be released. But is it his fault? The signs were there but ignored, there is certainly to some extent a shared responsibility.

 

i dont normally post in response to these things but this is taking the p$ss he is old enough to be responsible for his own actions it is not anyone else's fault he made the decision, from the press coverage he came from a decent background parents wise but something did go wrong in that persons mind

[Alkaline]

i dont normally post in response to these things but this is taking the p$ss he is old enough to be responsible for his own actions it is not anyone else's fault he made the decision, from the press coverage he came from a decent background parents wise but something did go wrong in that persons mind

 

No, its not. The law would of asked and considered the same question.

 

The school have a responsibility to try and keep track of students and their actions in relation to the school. It is not the schools fault, but in my opinion more could of been done in the months leading up to the incident. The fact that he posted messages and made comments in school, and even flashed a knife, and yet no other student reported it, would suggest to me the workings of the school need to be improved i.e. trust between staff and students.

 

Of course the school cannot control a student if they one day decide to come into school and stab someone, but I would think in most cases students show some sign they are not right in their behavour before an incident.

 

I would not pay much attention to the press how do they know what his upbringing was like, just because something appeared fine does not mean it was. They can't state that as fact.

 

I agree that he should never be released and he is guilty of murder. What I am saying is, if something did happen to him, how do we know if that happened to us we would of not turned out the same way.

Edited November 4, 2014 by Alkaline

[truebluesteve]

I'm assuming that his defence never claimed diminished responsibility? If so I expect they didn't think he was mentally ill - or not enough to go for that defence.

 

It could be said that anyone who kills someone isn't right in the head but that doesn't mean they should be in mental hospital. Upbringing doesn't give us much of a clue about how someone might turn out either - look at the banker who has been arrested for murdering the 2 sex workers in Hong Kong. He was privately educated and had a very privileged upbringing.

[tommej]

Depends what you mean by responsible. Directly, he was responsible. But the cause was not his fault, it was whatever mental illness he suffers from. So, you could say "no-one was responsible for the act of murder", in a way.

 

Sometimes, crimes don't have someone that is held responsible - the human mind is susceptible to being broken.

 

That's not to say there shouldn't be a consequence - the outcome would end up being the same, the guy being locked up either in a prison or a mental institution.

 

You could argue that burglary is not a crime but a metal issue because that person was unable to empathise the distress that they'd cause the victim.

 

He murdered a teacher in front of her class and planned to murder two more including one who was pregnant. He's said he doesn't care that his victim's family are upset and been described by the therapist as psychopathic. If someone is incapable of remorse and empathy, then no amount of rehabilitation is going to make them any better. He's been locked up to keep the public safe more than for his own punishment.

Edited November 5, 2014 by tommej

[Garacesh]

You could argue that burglary is not a crime but a metal issue because that person was unable to empathise the distress that they'd cause the victim.

Still a crime, though. A crime is anything that's declared to be a crime, regardless of how or why (the crime can be deemed acceptable or mitigated, but it's still a crime)

 

He murdered a teacher in front of her class and planned to murder two more including one who was pregnant.

Source? I've read the quote about not caring, but not that he planned multiple victims?

[localzuk]

You could argue that burglary is not a crime but a metal issue because that person was unable to empathise the distress that they'd cause the victim.

 

You could argue that. However, I'd say to make such arguments we should stick to fully diagnosed mental illness via the DSM. There are recognised conditions regarding stealing, for example.

 

He murdered a teacher in front of her class and planned to murder two more including one who was pregnant. He's said he doesn't care that his victim's family are upset and been described by the therapist as psychopathic. If someone is incapable of remorse and empathy, then no amount of rehabilitation is going to make them any better. He's been locked up to keep the public safe more than for his own punishment.

 

Oh, I agree. He needs to be locked away until the point where he can be determined to be safe, which in this case doesn't look likely to ever happen. I was reflecting upon the view being expressed by the organisation that was complaining of the sentence being too severe. My personal view is that prison should act as a deterrent for those that can be deterred (the majority), as a punishment and rehabilitation facility for those who do still break the law and as a public safety tool for extreme crimes. The emphasis should be on rehabilitation and public safety though.

[witch]

 

Oh, I agree. He needs to be locked away until the point where he can be determined to be safe, which in this case doesn't look likely to ever happen. I was reflecting upon the view being expressed by the organisation that was complaining of the sentence being too severe. .

TBF, the view that the sentence is too severe comes from an organisation which FULLY agrees with the idea that he needs to be locked up until the point at which he can be seen to be safe - they are not contesting that at all - they just feel that the basic sentence is too long - he might be ready to be released - under the above conditions - before that.

 

It always seems to me that sentences handed down for murder or manslaughter are very variable - some people seem to be locked away for much longer than others, for no discernible reason.

As for being born evil - I think it is very very rare but I believe that it can happen.

[tommej]

Will Cornick named and jailed: the boy who murdered his teacher | UK news | The Guardian

 

The judge imposed an indeterminate sentence, saying Cornick was “highly dangerous” and may well never be released, after psychiatrists warned he had “psychopathic elements” to his personality and could kill again. Leeds crown court heard he hoped to kill two other teachers, including one who was pregnant. He told doctors his plan was to stab her in the stomach to kill her unborn child.

[CAM]

^Yeah, he is staying inside. Potential quadruple murderer, that's borderline serial killer.

 

If anything, he will stay inside not for deterrence but 1) Public safety and 2) His own safety.

[LiamH]

TBF, the view that the sentence is too severe comes from an organisation which FULLY agrees with the idea that he needs to be locked up until the point at which he can be seen to be safe - they are not contesting that at all - they just feel that the basic sentence is too long - he might be ready to be released - under the above conditions - before that.

 

It always seems to me that sentences handed down for murder or manslaughter are very variable - some people seem to be locked away for much longer than others, for no discernible reason.

As for being born evil - I think it is very very rare but I believe that it can happen.

 

Well they did discover the "Warrior gene's" in Finland, 2 genetic markers that make the person much more likely to commit a violent act. I'm sure there are many people who have those 2 markers who lead none-violent lives but it looks like there is a strong correlation.

 

Could get very Orwellian if those genes start getting used in court however, i hope that never happens.

 

BBC News - Two genes linked with violent crime