Why Leopard Isn't Better than Vista

[ZeroHour]

Check out:

http://www.microsoft-watch.com/content/operating_systems/why_leopard_isnt_better_than_vista.html

They also have a article saying the opposite too (for all you apple fanboys that see no evil except MS)

Remember to be "constructive" with comments and not just the usual flame bait.

Also FYI this is NOT a MS site its ran by eWeek/Ziff Davies.

 

Enjoy

[kingswood]

As with sites that trash Vista the way they do, this one is no different in that it is a *subjective* evaluation of an OS. In other words the writer should say "in my opinion" or "in my experience". I could say that I have been running Leopard since release and it has been perfect (which it has). Airport is fast and fine; Safari has yet to crash; networking is fine; application support for me has covered everything I used in Tiger. I could then say that because of my experience with Leopard Vista sucks the big one!

 

Of course that isn't true. Vista and Leopard are (for me) pretty much equal on looks and features. What adds value to Leopard for me are things like Bootcamp (letting me run Vista on my MBP alongside Leopard); Time Machine (which is excellent for me); and spaces. There are improvements in speed and the finder is a great step forward (though not without its faults).

 

The point about migration problems is a valid one. It's a mature attitude that admits each operating system release no matter the software company that pushes it out will have issues. It's no different in the world of Mac to Windows all the way through to Linux and Unix. It's a strange mind that believes all the marketing hype and gets annoyed when Apple or Microsoft "don't deliver the goods" on release day (secret goods or otherwise). The real world says avoid the marketing hype and actually use the damned thing before jumping up and down and ranting and raving.

 

The author also comments that the 300 (or so) feature updates in Leopard add complexity to the mix. Some may well do that. But that also is the nature of the beast. In my opinion both Microsoft and Apple can never please all the people all the time- and nor can they leave their respective operating systems in some kind of feature stasis from fear of making migrations from older systems a little painful or making the overall system slightly more complex.

 

I too have come a long way in my own enjoyment of Vista (I was just looking at stacks in the OS yesterday and wondering whether Apple borrowed them from MS or not!). Vista is a very nice operating system. I enjoy using it and think Office 2007 on Vista is a very powerful combination for any school or business. But I am a Mac user by choice. It has all the features I need, and the software I use. It's stable, fast, and maturing nicely.

 

Use whatever OS you want and enjoy the eXPerience!

 

Of course all that is simply my subjective opinion

 

Paul

[Halfmad]

Well put Paul,

 

Personally I don't mind which OS people use and we'd probably have a mac in the house if it wasn't for the initial costs being higher and many of my games simply running better on a PC with Windows.

 

I support macs at work though, none of them capable of running bootcamp though - wouldn't mind trying it

[ZeroHour]

Yeh its his opinion and thats why this is not posted in the IT news section.

I agree with what you say, I just get annoyed when fan boys slate the latest MS system just because it has issues. If anything apple should have a easier time as they only have "their" hardware to test it on.

I have been using Vista since it came out and I have had *issues* too with it but on the whole its better then xp imho.

I liked his comment saying "Leopard's problems would be a whole lot bigger if more businesses used Mac OS X"

 

As for bootcamp, its a rather expensive way to run Vista. If you need Windows you should probably spend the £250 getting another pc really as your license for vista is not really that far short of the price anyway.

People go on about how good the "free" software apple provides is but I see it differently. Its DAMN expensive to buy a mac for iMovie or the assorted "free" Apple software and although iMovie for example is easy to use, Ulead Videostudio is used as easily by our pupils and its only around £25 a cal. More fanboys need to do that math on how much the supposed free software is really worth, in my mind it costs too much for *liteware*

[torledo]

My issue isn't a Microsoft vs Apple issue. It's that Microsoft could have done sooooo much better with Vista. There really are no excuses seeing as Windows is their flasgship product. Although it pains me to admit it OS X and even the iMac is no longer Apples flaship/core product. The ipod/iphone and itunes are it's core products - nobody would blame them financially speaking if they didn't spend a dime on developing os x or the computer business. And yet, in spite of this they keep coming out with improvements in an acceptable timeframe.

 

Microsoft just seem to learn nothing - over 5 years after xp and they offer ever more versions of the OS for sale to confuse customers - only an idiot would suggest apples os x or os x server approach isn't the best way to sell a product to business and the consumer. And the main bells and whistles feature of Vista is a real resource hog (replaced - ZH) - requiring ever more processor power and memory. One step forward two steps back.

 

apple have made some cockups too - there similar bells and whistles approach to OS development walks a fine line. and the insistence on pursuing with the single button mighty mouse is ridiculous. Instead a nice ergonomic pc like mouse with apples design flair would be a better choice.

 

Microsoft have raised the bar with office 2007 (and so they should thanks to huge R&D budget). They're doing a reasonably good job of catchup with IE 7, but I'm not convinced by the direction they're taking the windows product. And I'm just not convinced how innovative Vista is.

 

Where Microsoft are innovating is with things like .net and silverlight - showing off their often overlooked development prowess. But Vista itself does not show them at their best.

 

(merged, please remember to edit posts - ZH)

 

Another Microsoft gripe I have is the sure volume of bs applications you get when you buy a dell or a packard bell pc for home. Sure there are a huge variety of applications to choose from to suit pretty much any task.

 

But let the consumer decide what they do and don't want. Don't make me format the damn thing as soon as I take delivery of it - just to get rid of the clutter. Put it on a CD and I'll choose to install it on a bare Vista install.

 

BTW bootcamp is a good idea. How can it not be - you buy an intel based mac for £700. Still probably the best looking and most functional all-in-one there is. Apple make the only computers that features EFI (looking forward not back) and bootcamp is bundled free. What's the problem - install Windows or not it's up to you.

 

As I've said, Apple aren't perfect...I cringe at the marketing that makes making ilife the centrepiece of the mac experience. Like all we do on our computers is upload photos, yeah right and they really should get a hurry on and work with sun to make ZFS a reality on the mac. And for work there's no escaping microsoft and they've done well with security for Vista. And the mac security claims are complete bullshit.

[kingswood]

Yeh its his opinion and thats why this is not posted in the IT news section.

I agree with what you say, I just get annoyed when fan boys slate the latest MS system just because it has issues. If anything apple should have a easier time as they only have "their" hardware to test it on.

I have been using Vista since it came out and I have had *issues* too with it but on the whole its better then xp imho.

I liked his comment saying "Leopard's problems would be a whole lot bigger if more businesses used Mac OS X"

 

As for bootcamp, its a expensive way to run Vista. If you want windows so much spend the £250 getting another pc really. Your LIC for vista is not really that far short of the price anyway.

People go on about how good the "free" software apple provides is (pending a antitrust investigation - imaging is vista came with office lite for free) but I see it differently. Its DAMN expensive to buy a mac for iMovie or the assorted "free" software and although iMovie for example is easy to use, Ulead Videostudio is used as easily by our pupils and its only around £25 a cal. More fanboys need to do that math on how much the supposed free software is really worth, in my mind it costs too much for *liteware*

 

Perhaps if more businesses were using Macs there would be more of an issue with bugs in OS releases. But there is still a large install-base out there and they are vocal!

 

An OEM copy of Windows isn't as expensive as you think.

 

What anti-trust investigation are you referring to?

 

I don't buy a Mac for iMovie- it's part of the excellent software package you can get with an Apple product for buying the hardware but isn't *tied* to the system (like IE and media player were).

 

If comments are to be constructive, why are you referring to Apple users (or some of them) as "fanboys"?

 

I didn't find the second part of your post constructive at all. In fact it was a little inflammatory!

 

Paul

[webman]

Another Microsoft gripe I have is the sure volume of bs applications you get when you buy a dell or a packard bell pc for home.

 

That's not really anything to do with Microsoft, it's the OEM company.

[mattx]

Not sure if its true, but I've heard on the grapefine that every copy of Leopard sold, God is now killing 2 kittens !!!

 

http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:GWAKS74heXTXfM:http://mitheral.ca/images/Polaroid/kitten_die.jpg

[webman]

mattx, it's true, you heard right

[mattx]

mattx, it's true, you heard right

 

For god's sake people - JUST THINK OF THE KITTENS, THINK OF THE KITTENS !!!!!!!!

[webman]

Falling on deaf ears, mattx.

 

Us: For every copy of leopard sold, god kills two kittens

Fanboy: Oh, tell me more?

Us: Just don't buy it - think of the kitt.....

Fanboy: *looks at leopard* Oooooohhh shiny!!!

[torledo]

Yeh its his opinion and thats why this is not posted in the IT news section.

I agree with what you say, I just get annoyed when fan boys slate the latest MS system just because it has issues. If anything apple should have a easier time as they only have "their" hardware to test it on.

I have been using Vista since it came out and I have had *issues* too with it but on the whole its better then xp imho.

I liked his comment saying "Leopard's problems would be a whole lot bigger if more businesses used Mac OS X"

 

As for bootcamp, its a expensive way to run Vista. If you want windows so much spend the £250 getting another pc really. Your LIC for vista is not really that far short of the price anyway.

People go on about how good the "free" software apple provides is (pending a antitrust investigation - imaging is vista came with office lite for free) but I see it differently. Its DAMN expensive to buy a mac for iMovie or the assorted "free" software and although iMovie for example is easy to use, Ulead Videostudio is used as easily by our pupils and its only around £25 a cal. More fanboys need to do that math on how much the supposed free software is really worth, in my mind it costs too much for *liteware*

 

Perhaps if more businesses were using Macs there would be more of an issue with bugs in OS releases. But there is still a large install-base out there and they are vocal!

 

An OEM copy of Windows isn't as expensive as you think.

 

What anti-trust investigation are you referring to?

 

I don't buy a Mac for iMovie- it's part of the excellent software package you can get with an Apple product for buying the hardware but isn't *tied* to the system (like IE and media player were).

 

If comments are to be constructive, why are you referring to Apple users (or some of them) as "fanboys"?

 

I didn't find the second part of your post constructive at all. In fact it was a little inflammatory!

 

Paul

 

Good comments Paul..plus your comments on IE and WMP are particularly relevant - seeing as those two are perenially coming back to bite Microsoft in the ass when it comes to anti-trust rulings. and with good reason.

 

There's a ton of good software out there for the mac at no cost. Plus open source software is available through things like the fink project. I agree, I don't think anyone seriously buys a mac purely for imovie. And sure it might cost you more to buy quality software like FinalCut Express and Office 2008 - but they are best of breed products. Office 2008 in particular is going to be great value - with a version particularly good value for home users. Plus even Office 2008 Pro is true to the simple choice ethos offered to mac users. Whereas Office 2007 (and I'm a fan) has a plethora of versions and options - some useful, some will be left untouched. One Note, Accounting, Groove, Infopath, Business Pro Plus, Ultimate, Enterprise etc .etc. Office 2008 for Mac is Word, Excel, Powerpoint, entourage...and err, that's it i think. Just what you need no messing.

[torledo]

Another Microsoft gripe I have is the sure volume of bs applications you get when you buy a dell or a packard bell pc for home.

 

That's not really anything to do with Microsoft, it's the OEM company.

 

It's everything to do with Microsoft they allow their product to be sold in that way. OEM or not.

[webman]

OEMs have the choice to do it or not, they make the final decision.

[localzuk]

I don't mind all the junk they put on the machines - it means the company is getting income from the makers of those packages, and as such reducing the price of the machine for me. If they couldn't put the software on, the profit would have to come from somewhere - us.

[GrumbleDook]

Forgetting the whole "my OS is better than yours" thing, I have to say that the first line Apple support are having to field lots of stuff at the moment. I was on the line to them eariler (about a hardware fault in a different machine) and it was easier to escalate me to the next line as they were waiting for the next call about Leopard.

 

They are aware of the problems, they are being helpful to those that ring up but they try to make sure that people back up first (even using iPods as backup devices). We had a quick chat about possible methods of ensuring the volume is ready for upgrade and it turns out that the volume needs to have 3 scans run over it (fsck?) and the larger the volume the longer the time ...

 

I am going to give it a go tonight and see what happens (after another backup of course!)

 

They are watching the various forums and if anyone has a confirmed fix they try it out ... and then include it in their internal knowledgebase.

[ZeroHour]

Perhaps if more businesses were using Macs there would be more of an issue with bugs in OS releases. But there is still a large install-base out there and they are vocal!

 

An OEM copy of Windows isn't as expensive as you think.

 

What anti-trust investigation are you referring to?

 

I don't buy a Mac for iMovie- it's part of the excellent software package you can get with an Apple product for buying the hardware but isn't *tied* to the system (like IE and media player were).

 

If comments are to be constructive, why are you referring to Apple users (or some of them) as "fanboys"?

 

I didn't find the second part of your post constructive at all. In fact it was a little inflammatory!

 

Paul

iMovie was a example really of a app (btw I did say assorted free software) that people consider to be free. I have had people state that the free software (non apple) justifies the cost of the mac over similar pc solutions but open source exists for both OS's.

I was not going for inflammatory really, I just wanted people to think about the costs of what appears as free, it adds value but really its not free, just included. I will reword it a little I think using the edit button.

 

The EU is looking into apple currently although currently only about the iTunes store situation but personally if Microsoft did what Apple did by bundling so much software with windows (I know some software is bundled with windows such as windows movie maker) the competition would be up in arms. Remember the complaint was mostly based on the fact that because IE etc are built into windows most users wont bother to find a alternate (even if they could remove it) and that means people developing for windows had a harder sell for their wares. How many out there use the "i" software for most of their day to day because its built in and does what you need (like IE really). If you did not have it bundled you would look at the competition more and by that I do not just mean "free" software alternatives.

 

As for IE it can be disabled but it is used in "explorer" so thus it cant be removed and I have no problem really as IE is disabled. Its not a security risk and does not exactly bloat the OS while its disabled. In Vista anyway things run in a limited mode to prevent hacks so its more secure inherently. Remember iTunes uses the safari engine for the store and web parts so in theory depending on how much code they ported, there could a common exploit. I know though, you can remove both which is nice.

 

As for WMP it can be disabled as well but I also believe MS used shared code for the OS as well in that senario. Even if you could remove the "program files" folder for each you would just have all the DLL's etc as a copy somewhere else for the OS to use anyway.

 

The fanboy comments were for the people who when vista was launched, declared it a joke as a OS because people had issues with it. That was not a digg at people here, just anti MS people who blindly say things like that.

 

Phew... digging up hill is hard

[mac_shinobi]

They all have there pros and cons - just depends on what you are trying to achieve or do or which one you prefer.

 

What I did find odd is that this is a Windows Versus Mac os ( what happened to linux or any other platform )

 

I mean linux has come quite a long way, esp with xgl and was just looking into compiz which I thought was good

 

Was just a thought

[HodgeHi]

Can you do a Windows Update using a different browser? I think the last time i tried that it wouldn't run.

 

I love my macs. I would not go back. It's not the Bells and whistles that come with the machine, it's the stability of the OS. I have not used Vista as of yet so cannot comment on the stability of its product.

 

I have also been having my fair few issues with leopard (the main one being my keyboard on the MBP) but even with this, Leopard was still stable when running. Someone mentioned security on OS X. If you use common sense on any platform then you will be better protected, but more common sense is needed and also a vigilant updating process (spyware,virus detection apps etc) to keep on top of this. I haven't got any virus software on my mac at the moment (is this wise?) but i don't feel i need any. I think when a serous virus comes out for the mac then EVERYONE will know about it straight away.

 

The free apps are for each platform and they are great. Keep them coming is what i say. It's shows though that will a little effort any app can be ported across regardless. The open source movement is great and some bigger companies could learn a lot from their example.

 

I have had big problems with the leopard DVD play back software though.

 

One thing Apple do do which i think has one over on Microsoft is being able to take on new hardware advances like EFI. MS don't have this luxury as they need to support all hardware as best as possible.

 

But Apple have demonstrated that you can have an EFI boot and still be backwards compatible with BIOS boots, although you don't have as much control with the hardware. Well i don't anyway. Is there a way to tinker with the boot options in EFI?

 

This is where the PC industry is good. You have more options at your disposal. But this also gives more confusion to the more basic user.

 

But for me, I like my macs and most people that take one up at the moment seems to be thinking the same. Apple must be doing something right, even if it is there marketing.

 

Oh, and i forgot. Upgrades to OS X seem to be cheaper as well. With the added benefit of mot being tied to specific hardware. So if i have one copy of Leopard and install on Macbook. Don't like it can re-install tiger and install leopard on G5 powermac.

 

PS Haw many processors can a copy of XP be installed on now? is it still 1-2 CPUs?

Does this mean you have to purchase 2 licenses if you want to run it on a quad core machine?

Edited January 8, 2008 by HodgeHi