Teacher stabbed to death at school in Leeds

[Grey-gear]

Since the beginning of the year the Daily Telegraph have been providing a PDF of the paper of that day from 100 years ago to commemorate the first World War.

I have been looking at them 3 or 4 days of each week and what I have noticed is that very little has changed.

Murders were comitted, children were abused, arson and firebombings occurred and everyday people were conned by crooks.

 

For some reason this part reminded me of "Everybody's Free (to Wear Sunscreen)", with the part of the lyrics that goes: -

"Accept certain inalienable truths,

Prices will rise, politicians will philander, you, too, will get old

And when you do, you'll fantasize that when you were young

Prices were reasonable, politicians were noble

And children respected their elders"

Edited May 6, 2014 by Grey-gear

[pcstru]

I wasn't born until '88, I don't think it's fair to call me ignorant because I didn't experience life before I was born...

Well, when I don't know something, I'm ignorant of it. The word seems entirely appropriate to describe a situation of not knowing - regardless of the reason for that. It isn't an insult, nor intended as one. There is a lot of fear of ignorance and people have strong motivations to have an opinion without any evidence. Not to be insulting (again!) but IMO the younger you are the more you will be afflicted by that. Oscar Wild summed it up well : "I'm not young enough to know everything". I think age brings more willingness to recognise when we don't know, perhaps that's because experience teaches that recognising when you don't know something is pretty useful knowledge. Perhaps you just become more comfortable with the knowledge of not knowing.

 

I'm not really commenting on the issue of the "youth of today". I can't think how to even reasonably frame the question in an objective way. (My own experiences when young would suggest we were no better - but that is just more anecdote). I was commenting on the dismissal of evidence before anyone had even bothered to bring any. That just strikes me as risible.

Edited May 6, 2014 by pcstru

[LosOjos]

Well, when I don't know something, I'm ignorant of it. The word seems entirely appropriate to describe a situation of not knowing - regardless of the reason for that. It isn't an insult, nor intended as one. There is a lot of fear of ignorance and people have strong motivations to have an opinion without any evidence. Not to be insulting (again!) but IMO the younger you are the more you will be afflicted by that. Oscar Wild summed it up well : "I'm not young enough to know everything". I think age brings more willingness to recognise when we don't know, perhaps that's because experience teaches that recognising when you don't know something is pretty useful knowledge. Perhaps you just become more comfortable with the knowledge of not knowing.

 

I'm not really commenting on the issue of the "youth of today". I can't think how to even reasonably frame the question in an objective way. (My own experiences when young would suggest we were no better - but that is just more anecdote). I was commenting on the dismissal of evidence before anyone had even bothered to bring any. That just strikes me as risible.

 

OK, just a difference of opinion then, when I'm called ignorant I take it as an insult as it's often banded about as one, but fair enough you meant it in the literal sense.

 

It's always going to be a difficult argument to make this one, as those old enough to make a comparison often have their opinion tainted by nostalgia, so those too young to remember can't really find a reliable source of information to draw comparison from.

 

It's interesting that @casey has pointed out that the Telegraph have been publishing 100 year old articles and that the news is pretty much the same - that may be as close to "proof" as we can get that things are no worse now than they've ever been.

 

If that is the case though, then again I have to agree with @casey - rather than worrying that things are getting worse, we should be worried that they haven't gotten any better...

[spadam]

I wasn't born until '88, I don't think it's fair to call me ignorant because I didn't experience life before I was born... I know the anecdotal evidence says things were better back then but I don't put much weight in anecdotal evidence.

 

I didn't read that as you being called ignorant at all. I think it was more of a general comment that most people remember how the world was for them in earlier times rather than how it seemed as a whole. Generally awareness and appreciation of the world outside of your own direct experience is something that increases with age.

@abillybob - I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here or for what purpose. Figures are just a numerical representation of facts which facilitate easier comparisons so I don't understand your distinction between the two. The number and nature of factors which contribute to the combined collective behaviour of millions of people are so complex that it is extremely difficult to separate out where the cause of any observed or perceived effect lies. Certainly changes in society will have effects, usually some will be positive and some negative but trying to work out what these are is no trivial matter and while it is easy for anybody to have their own guess at what the problems and solutions are, without evidence to back it up your guess is no more valid than anyone elses...

[casey]

Sorry Galway but did you read any of the comments above?

 

You sound like Fraser from Dad's Army "We're alllll doooooooomed!"

[superatticman]

Personally I think society was more violent 30-40 years ago. You only have to look at footage from the terraces to see that thousands of young men would be out rucking every week. My dad also backs up the theory that going back 30-50 years most pubs were generally pretty rough places to be. Was a case of fighting your way in and fighting your way out in some areas. Mugging was not so popular back then because people simply didn't have anything worth mugging from.

 

However what I would say is that the escalation of the Summer riots in 2011 came as no surprise to me. Whilst someone has mentioned that the Police may now be more of a para-military arm of the government, they were also shown up as lacking control of the streets during this period. Whatever the reasons for people feeling the need to riot, for the first two nights the Police failed to have any control over what was a motley collection of pseudo-gangsters and bored schoolkids. Whether you point your finger at the guys on the ground or their superiors is anyone's guess.

[localzuk]

Personally I think society was more violent 30-40 years ago.

 

We know that it was from the health service statistics and from policing stats (which, true, you have to take with a pinch of salt) all around the world. There is a reason for it too, the removal of lead from petrol. How Lead Caused America's Violent Crime Epidemic - Forbes

[LosOjos]

Of course I read them, just because I didn't address each and everyone does not change a thing.

 

You've also avoided making a counter argument, haven't attempted to display any reasoning behind your objections nor even pointed out who or what exactly you're objecting to... you may as well be shouting in to an empty room!

[superatticman]

We know that it was from the health service statistics and from policing stats (which, true, you have to take with a pinch of salt) all around the world. There is a reason for it too, the removal of lead from petrol. How Lead Caused America's Violent Crime Epidemic - Forbes

 

Not sure if anyone has seen the new 'Cosmos' series, but there was an excellent article on how they discovered the very fact that lead poisoning was even in existence. The original task was to find out how old the Earth is. That they discovered. But another spin off of this was that they also discovered the fact that the levels of lead in the environment were extremely high.

 

As for statistics, when theres politics involved, can they ever be trusted? The Beeching report was the most obvious example of how to fabricate figures to suit your agenda. Ensure that main line trains from London no longer connect with the branch line services that you want closed. And lets ensure that monitoring is done during the middle of the day and not during the peak hours. The nett result? Figures that show considerably less passenger usage than if you had been totally impartial.

[pcstru]

It's interesting that @casey has pointed out that the Telegraph have been publishing 100 year old articles and that the news is pretty much the same - that may be as close to "proof" as we can get that things are no worse now than they've ever been.

That's about the sense I have of it - very little has changed. Australia didn't get a population in the younger white demographic from well behaved kids saying please and thank you. If someone wants to say things are worse, then they need to present the evidence for their claim. The area seems to be one where perceptions are out of kilter with the evidence. Perhaps there is some natural cognitive bias going on.

If that is the case though, then again I have to agree with @casey - rather than worrying that things are getting worse, we should be worried that they haven't gotten any better...

Or perhaps that would be like worrying that the number of legs children have hasn't grown (basically it is what it is) ?

[LosOjos]

Where to start? At the moment im simply disagreeing with the happy clappers who think everything is fine. If you want me to spell it out then there is no point, as its clearly missed already.

 

Oh that old chestnut, "of course I get it but why should I explain it to you?"

 

A debate only works if both sides are willing to make their point, otherwise there really is no point.

 

Or perhaps that would be like worrying that the number of legs children have hasn't grown (basically it is what it is) ?

 

True, although I would like to believe that as humanity progresses our aptitude for violence and hatred would decrease... then again, we are just a collection of cells clinging to a rock being hurtled through space at thousands of miles per hour!

[abillybob]

then again, we are just a collection of cells clinging to a rock being hurtled through space at thousands of miles per hour!

 

Because Science.

[sted]

im not sure you ever can compare one "age" with another (at least not since the industrial revolution ish). Just look at things we take for granted that when i was a kid just werent around (not an exhaustive list.

24 hour news (which imo rewads quick ill researches fluff pieces over actual journalism and fact checking)

internet (24/7 access to pretty much any info you could ever want and lots you dont though i suspect it was easier to do some things pre internet and years ago like homemade explosives as there will of been people who came back from the war and tought skills like this to their kids as blowing up a tree stump is fun)

being connected to a phone 24/7 again growing up i rarely used the phone if i wanted to find out what someone was doing i went and found them

100's of tv chanels/netflix (you can probably just sit infront of the tv and find something "worth watching" all day if you want without too much trouble so why bother doing anything)

 

As life moves on so quickly its hard to reestablish a baseline norm even from one generation to the next what we consider a basic tool would of been magic to our grandparents. As others have said back far enough and sons did the same job as their fathers pretty much in the same village so you propably couldnt avoid knowing peoples names if you wanted to because you diddnt travel and would be constantly running into them

[witch]

Where to start? At the moment im simply disagreeing with the happy clappers who think everything is fine. If you want me to spell it out then there is no point, as its clearly missed already.

 

I don't think anyone is saying that things are fine are they? Just that they may not be as bad, or as different, as some people are saying

[casey]

I don't think anyone is saying that things are fine are they? Just that they may not be as bad, or as different, as some people are saying

 

Exactly, no one has said we are living in a utopia, just that it's not as bad as some think.

 

People have been saying things are going all to hell for millenia but we still haven't arrived there yet!

 

As another well known witch says "I Aten't Dead" yet.

[localzuk]

People have been saying things are going all to hell for millenia but we still haven't arrived there yet!

 

That really depends on your definition of hell...

[mthomas08]

This thread is denigrating into a flame war.

 

Totally agree with Lightfoot here, especially his entire post.

 

The examples of different teachers was also a good point, I too have had the teachers who had the control of the class because of the shouting and another who simply never raised his voice but had the control. I agree with what others are saying about society, having worked in a School that has had severe trouble and those kids reminded me of my up bringing. It can be a million reasons why kids are the way that they are. My attitude towards Students who damage equipment is "They are kids".

 

For the Student who did this murder will most likely spend his life regretting it and his life will never be the same as a result. The victims family will also never be the same. They all have my sympathy.

 

Having been raised in a "troubled area" there really is a lot of reasons why kids do things (I was one of those kids). I had to seriously work hard to make something of my self.

 

As for the flame wars on here it's usually based on the same thing "I have my opinion and I stick to it and I wont listen to what others say". Especially when facts are brought in, only have to look at other threads to see it usually the same ones (not naming and shaming).

Then there is the "Nit picking" I noticed in threads, where some one will ignore all the facts and find that tiny part which may not include all the information. I too have had this done to me and it's not till everyone has joined in does the person admit that they are wrong, or its more like "my personal choice".

 

In the words of Wise old Obi Wan - you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

 

And in a forum it's really hard to type up everything we actually mean without creating a mile long post. And in all honesty I don't like reading them posts.

[Garacesh]

And in all honesty I don't like reading them posts.

Those posts*

 

(Sorry, playful banter in response to some one will ignore all the facts and find that tiny part which may not include all the information. - don't hate me )

[mthomas08]

@Garacesh

 

Trust you!!!

 

That's being very nit picky! Although I didn't type what you just put ! Grrrrrrrrr

[Garacesh]

That's being very nit picky! Although I didn't type what you just put ! Grrrrrrrrr

 

You ruddy did! Those are exact quotes!

[abillybob]

OOOOOOOOOO a certain brown gooey substance is going to hit the fan I expect

[superatticman]

My attitude towards Students who damage equipment is "They are kids".

 

 

And at what point in life do they begin to realise that vandalism is not acceptable? 15? 25? 35? This is the problem. We're constantly making excuses for 'kids' yet wonder why by adulthood they are totally unprepared for the real world.

[pcstru]

And at what point in life do they begin to realise that vandalism is not acceptable? 15? 25? 35? This is the problem. We're constantly making excuses for 'kids' yet wonder why by adulthood they are totally unprepared for the real world.

 

It varies. Some people never seem to realise. Some people ARE wired differently, you can call it 'mental illness' or whatever, but you may never be able to cure it. The fact is children of school age are likely to act in ways that are irresponsible or without consideration of the consequences of their actions. That is after all why they are deemed minors.

 

Paradoxically, people will moan about how kids grow up so fast these days, that we expect too much of them too early and that we rob them of their childhood. After over 40 years of seeing both all I can conclude is that people like to generalise and people like to moan and ... well, it's much worse now than when I was young!

[superatticman]

It varies. Some people never seem to realise. Some people ARE wired differently, you can call it 'mental illness' or whatever, but you may never be able to cure it. The fact is children of school age are likely to act in ways that are irresponsible or without consideration of the consequences of their actions. That is after all why they are deemed minors.

 

Paradoxically, people will moan about how kids grow up so fast these days, that we expect too much of them too early and that we rob them of their childhood. After over 40 years of seeing both all I can conclude is that people like to generalise and people like to moan and ... well, it's much worse now than when I was young!

 

Interesting stuff. At what point to you start to install serious discipline? Too early and its seen as 'unfair'. Too late and its seen as 'unfair' because the discipline suddenly comes as a shock and should have been administered earlier. Obviously a gradual increase in discipline is ideal but humans develop at different rates so you cannot apply the same levels of inertia to everyone.

 

By the way I'm not a parent and have no interest in being one. However I do care about society as a whole and what we reap is what we sow!

[mthomas08]

You ruddy did! Those are exact quotes!

 

Sorry was being sarcastic, hence the wink but that was aimed at the super long posts that I don't tend to read.

@superatticman

I was using the example at kids that damage the equipment, I don't class a 25 or a 35 Year old as a kid even if their mental age fits

As PC said though some peoples mentality is very different, my other half works with people that require a bit of support. And although they can do most things on their own there has been moments where they needed support. That support can really be for simply easy things the rest of us take for granted.

 

Did I mention anything about nit picking earlier?