Arthur Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 buying them just for their quality is daft One good thing about Apple laptops is that their trackpads don't suck, unlike the trackpads you find on many Windows laptops. I'm sure @computerguy would agree based on his recent thread.
computerguy Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 Good point, I don't think a trackpad on a Mac has ever made me walk away from the laptop in complete anger!
LosOjos Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) No you need to chill out for jumping down my throat for something I never said the first place AND I don't buy apple in the first place I hate the company I hate the wall garden approach and I certainly never intimated anything about their build quality. I got the impression you were crediting the Mac with your wife getting the job, when actually the credit lies with your wife's skill and access to the software she needs; Mac/Windows is irrelevant in that equation. Oh and I pointed out that they aren't identical (which you conveniently overlooked in the post you quoted) that the keyboard shortcuts are different. You may not use them but my wife has been using photoshop since v1 and uses the keyboard shortcuts more than clicking in menus so from that pov it would make a big difference to her productivity and a big difference to the grief I'd get as she loves os x (not apple just the os) I "conveniently overlooked" it rather than point out it was a a moot point. Yes, they're different; if you press ALT in Windows, you press Option on Mac and if you press Control in Windows, it's Command on Mac - it's not like you suddenly lose access to your keyboard shortcuts in either version, the two machines just have ever so slightly different keyboards necessitating the shortcuts requiring one control key different. Not a 'difference' worth singling either version out for IMO. So not really sure why you're having a go at me??? Not having a go at you, simply responding with my opinion; the point of a debate! I don't disagree with anything you said but can I point out that the name calling frequently comes from both sides? The amount of times I've seen posters on this forum call people "Sheeple" because they buy Apple products is staggering. Totally agree. People get very heated over it - I try not to lower myself to calling people names, it's everyone's personal choice at the end of the day, I just cannot grasp the reasons some people come up with to buy Apple; would be so much easier if people just said they preferred the OS rather than trying to act like Macs are magically superior - they're not, you are paying good money for them and more often than not, people are comparing the quality and reliability of a £1,200+ machine with one of the cheap, basic Windows machines they service at work - it's not a fair comparison. Edited April 12, 2014 by LosOjos Badly worded
flyinghaggis Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 The trackpad functionality and gestures is something Apple definitely deserve credit for. It makes what's normally a very frustrating experience much slicker. To be fair the functionality is similar on Windows laptops but it doesn't seem to work as well. I notice there's talk of Apple removing the 'click' on the trackpad altogether in future versions of their laptops. Probably makes sense as that was once aspect of the trackpad I found very awkward and poorly implemented IMO. Much easier using tap to click. Speaking of trackpads I wonder if we'll see touch-screen functionality at some point in future on Mac laptops?
localzuk Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 My fingers dislike trackpads, about 90% of the time nothing happens when I touch them. It is why I like the Trackpoint on Lenovo laptops. Apple trackpads have performed a little better for me though.
synaesthesia Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 I just started to fume with trackpads when people moved away from fitting nipples to their laptops. Those were great. I get on with Lenovo trackpads very well though generally. I don't like the macbook clicky trackpad thing, they feel "uncertain". They do feel good to use otherwise though, I'm a bit like Wreck it Ralph (not a word, @tekins !) in regards to hand size and care!
computerguy Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 I love track points too, I use an X220 for work with the pad disabled. Macbook air at home
spacebar Posted April 12, 2014 Author Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) So in conclusion not many buy Apple products for the build quality. It seems that a person will buy an Apple product for one for the following reasons. A) Build quality and style. B) Because it has an Apple logo on it. C) Because "everyone else" is buying them. D) You want/need to use Mac OS. E) You are a mindless drone sucked into consumerism. I will be buying an Apple product, because I like the build quality of them, I like the look of them, and I want to use OS X rather than Windows 8. I know I am paying at least £300-£400 on top for the Apple brand but I think it is justifiable giving it will last (or should) for some time and is upgradable (the product I am buying is). I will never be an Apple fanboy and cannot go into an Apple store without feeling sick, the sight of the place and it being full of Apple "people" with their long hair and baggie style of dress and general chill out attitude is enough to do that, so I think I will go over to Tesco instead. Edited April 12, 2014 by spacebar
spacebar Posted April 12, 2014 Author Posted April 12, 2014 On another note I think its about time Microsoft started to Make PC's, they did it with game consoles so maybe they can do it with PC's.
glennda Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 On another note I think its about time Microsoft started to Make PC's, they did it with game consoles so maybe they can do it with PC's. no its really not!
computerguy Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 The surface and surface pro are nice products
flyinghaggis Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) The surface and surface pro are nice products They're well made and beautifully finished products at relatively decent price points. However I wouldn't actually call either a good overall product at this point in time. The Surface RT is rendered useless thanks to the limited software available for WindowsRT. I thought the Surface Pro would be the ultimate tablet PC until I used it and realised that to make it's 10" 1080p display usable they'd set the default font scaling to 150% which would 'break' half of the desktop apps I need to use. It's Windows 8 that let's the side down TBH as with the Surface tablets Microsoft's had hardware that was on a par with Apple IMO. Ironic really given that Microsoft's main focus should be software! I've just installed Windows 8.1 upgrade one and it's filled me with disappointment at how little has changed I guess we'll have to hold out for Windows 9 until Microsoft get round to fixing the issues introduced by Windows8. Edited April 12, 2014 by flyinghaggis
LosOjos Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 They're well made and beautifully finished products at relatively decent price points. However I wouldn't actually call either a good overall product at this point in time. The Surface RT is rendered useless thanks to the limited software available for WindowsRT. I thought the Surface Pro would be the ultimate tablet PC until I used it and realised that to make it's 10" 1080p display usable they'd set the default font scaling to 150% which would 'break' half of the desktop apps I need to use. It's Windows 8 that let's the side down TBH as with the Surface tablets Microsoft's had hardware that was on a par with Apple IMO. Ironic really given that Microsoft's main focus should be software! I've just installed Windows 8.1 upgrade one and it's filled me with disappointment at how little has changed I guess we'll have to hold out for Windows 9 until Microsoft get round to fixing the issues introduced by Windows8. Yeah, unfortunately Windows 8 has lived up to the age old good/bad Windows cycle. 8.1 was a substantial improvement on 8, if only for allowing you to boot straight to Desktop! 8.1 update 1's (bloody ridiculous numbering scheme!) biggest change was an important one but one that most users won't notice; it detects whether you are using a touch screen or not and makes "boot to desktop" default if not - that really ought to have been the case since day one! I like that apps show on the taskbar now and that the taskbar is always available, but it annoyed me that they still won't let you properly "window" apps; they're minimized or maximized, no in between (apart from screen splitting, which is OK but not always flexible enough). Windows 8 has definitely improved a lot (I've been using it since dev previews became available) and the core OS really is a step up but the polarizing UI is what it will be remembered for and I'm with the majority on that one; it's a cumbersome mish-mash that's not really a good fit for mouse or touch screen users. Here's hoping Windows 9 follows the good/bad trend! EDIT: so much for me being out of the thread eh?
computerguy Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 I've started to use it again just by pushing the windows key and typing the name of whatever I want. Actually makes me work quicker than in 7 but it is still cumbersome navigating through menus to find things. Confusing for everyone I think, unfortunately!
flyinghaggis Posted April 12, 2014 Posted April 12, 2014 (edited) ...it annoyed me that they still won't let you properly "window" apps; they're minimized or maximized, no in between (apart from screen splitting, which is OK but not always flexible enough). I know what you mean. I can't believe that they don't have Windowing options for Metro apps by now. THere's still no way of combining desktop apps and Windows apps on split screen either. I notice that opening up a link in mail causes the screen to split and open the link in IE which is OK but most web pages don't really fit in a 960 pixel wide windows. Also, if you drag the IE split to full screen then drag it back to half screen it 'forgets' that the Mail was the last app you had open and displays half the screen blank. It was more effective when it opened the link full screen TBH. I sometimes wonder if MS actually used Windows 8 themselves before they released it! Edited April 12, 2014 by flyinghaggis
seawolf Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 So in conclusion not many buy Apple products for the build quality. It seems that a person will buy an Apple product for one for the following reasons. A) Build quality and style. B) Because it has an Apple logo on it. C) Because "everyone else" is buying them. D) You want/need to use Mac OS. E) You are a mindless drone sucked into consumerism. Actually, C would be a more appropriate answer if the question were "Why do people buy an Android or Windows product?" Given the market share of the Mac, if you're just buying what "everyone else" is buying it wouldn't be a Mac. I'll give you my alternative list of reasons why a rational person would buy Apple products: 1) High build quality combined with great industrial style. 2) OS X is a Unix-based OS with a very good GUI and excellent software (iLife, iWork, FCPX, Logic Pro, etc.) 3) Ease of visiting a local Apple Store (or Apple Care centre) for purchasing and support 4) Apple makes their product line easy to understand for the non-technical person making purchasing decisions less confusing 5) Full vertical integration of Apple products For quite a few people any or all of the first four are enough reason for them. For me, it is the the 5th reason that seals the deal. Good build quality and industrial styling can be found from some other manufacturers or product lines besides Apple. Microsoft and Samsung both have stores you can visit now for support, and many Linux distros have great GUIs and some great software (not as wide a selection as OSX of course). But, most manufacturers fail in comparison to Apple for number four, although there are a few smaller companies that do get it. However, none of them provide the level of vertical integration that Apple do, and this does make a difference. Microsoft are starting to get this, and Samsung are now doing their best to copy Apple in this regard too. If you can't beat them, join them... 2
mac_shinobi Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 Actually, C would be a more appropriate answer if the question were "Why do people buy an Android or Windows product?" Given the market share of the Mac, if you're just buying what "everyone else" is buying it wouldn't be a Mac. I'll give you my alternative list of reasons why a rational person would buy Apple products: 1) High build quality combined with great industrial style. 2) OS X is a Unix-based OS with a very good GUI and excellent software (iLife, iWork, FCPX, Logic Pro, etc.) 3) Ease of visiting a local Apple Store (or Apple Care centre) for purchasing and support 4) Apple makes their product line easy to understand for the non-technical person making purchasing decisions less confusing 5) Full vertical integration of Apple products For quite a few people any or all of the first four are enough reason for them. For me, it is the the 5th reason that seals the deal. Good build quality and industrial styling can be found from some other manufacturers or product lines besides Apple. Microsoft and Samsung both have stores you can visit now for support, and many Linux distros have great GUIs and some great software (not as wide a selection as OSX of course). But, most manufacturers fail in comparison to Apple for number four, although there are a few smaller companies that do get it. However, none of them provide the level of vertical integration that Apple do, and this does make a difference. Microsoft are starting to get this, and Samsung are now doing their best to copy Apple in this regard too. If you can't beat them, join them... I think for the most part you do get good quality however some things need to be better just as one example my 2011 mac mini which was the higher end one that comes with the AMD gpu came with hynix ram and a slow 5,400 rpm hdd Crucial 16 gb ram kit is about £114 and a reasonable ssd such as a 256 gb samsung 840 pro is aprox £170 Taking into consideration I paid about £600 for it at the time and on top of that just before the first year ran out paid £140 for apple care which touch wood I don't have to use All I am saying is they could have used a 7,200 rpm hdd ie 750gb wd black and the crucial 16gb ram kit I will soon upgrade it but want to wait until apple care expires which I believe is around August this year and will then follow the ifixit guide to a T and can then use the mac mini more effectively
seawolf Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 (edited) I think for the most part you do get good quality however some things need to be better just as one example my 2011 mac mini which was the higher end one that comes with the AMD gpu came with hynix ram and a slow 5,400 rpm hdd Crucial 16 gb ram kit is about £114 and a reasonable ssd such as a 256 gb samsung 840 pro is aprox £170 Taking into consideration I paid about £600 for it at the time and on top of that just before the first year ran out paid £140 for apple care which touch wood I don't have to use All I am saying is they could have used a 7,200 rpm hdd ie 750gb wd black and the crucial 16gb ram kit I will soon upgrade it but want to wait until apple care expires which I believe is around August this year and will then follow the ifixit guide to a T and can then use the mac mini more effectively The only problem I've ever had out of the 50 or so Mac Minis I've had were the DVD drives on the 2010 models. DVD drives in those models died like chooks in a hot aussie summer. I suspect that's one reason the DVD drive disappeared in the subsequent model. Otherwise, they've been faultless and the first two Mac Minis I bought in early 2008 still chugging along. So, build quality is certainly good for the cost. The reason for 5,400rpm drives has more to do with the physics of minimising heat in a very small internal space. If 7,200rpm drives are used they generate more heat that must be dealt with. This would require larger fans or increasing the rpm of the fans, which would either increase the size of the computer or make it noisier. SSDs solve that problem, but large SSDs are expensive and replacing a 1TB HDD with a 128GB SSD in the base model wouldn't suit a lot of people. As the price comes down, I expect that's what you'll see. As for RAM, that's the cheapest and easiest upgrade, I wish I could order one without any RAM and reduce the cost rather than Apple putting 16GB as the default. Edited April 13, 2014 by seawolf
Arthur Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 The only problem I've ever had out of the 50 or so Mac Minis I've had were the DVD drives on the 2010 models. DVD drives in those models died like chooks in a hot aussie summer. The DVD drive on my early 2009 Mac mini also died, so I took it out and put a hard drive in its place (along with an SSD where the HDD used to go). Best upgrade ever! I suspect that's one reason the DVD drive disappeared in the subsequent model. That, and Apple want you to buy more things from their iTunes and Mac App stores. Optical drives make very little sense in modern PCs anyway since most things are downloadable now. The reason for 5,400rpm drives has more to do with the physics of minimising heat in a very small internal space. Indeed. The other problem is that Seagate have also stopped selling 7,200rpm HDDs due to lack of demand and Western Digital don't make many 7,200 rpm HDDs either. Switching to hybrid hard drives (SSHDs) wouldn't make sense for Apple, because they would rather sell you a Mac with a significantly faster 'Fusion Drive' instead (128GB SSD + 1TB or 2TB HDD). As the price comes down, I expect that's what you'll see. With SSDs due to fall in price by another 20%-30% this year, I expect we'll see the next Mac mini (or perhaps the one that follows that) with PCIe SSDs - like the MBA or rMBP - and soldered on RAM. Once that happens, Apple can make the Mac mini a bit smaller since it's still the same size as when it came with an optical drive. my 2011 mac mini which was the higher end one that comes with the AMD gpu came with hynix ram and a slow 5,400 rpm hdd Macs have been coming with 5,400rpm HDDs for years. All I am saying is they could have used a 7,200 rpm hdd ie 750gb wd black and the crucial 16gb ram kit If Apple did that, your Mac mini would probably end up costing £1,000+. There's also the additional heat to deal with as @seawolf mentioned. The only Mac with a 7,200rpm HDD is the 27" iMac.
synaesthesia Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 Prettiness comes at a price. (re crap hard drives). SSD's are a blessing for Apple.
Norphy Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 SSDs are a blessing for anyone who uses them, not solely Apple. 1
synaesthesia Posted April 13, 2014 Posted April 13, 2014 Obviously, but the point was it saved Apple having to continue to nerf performance by using crap hard drives.
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