GrumbleDook Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 As part of EduGeek's activities at Education Innovation : the leading event for learning technology : Manchester, 8/9 March we are taking part in the debate around women in IT. I will be joining the debate chaired by Chair: Julia Dennison (editor, Education Executive) along with Sue Nieland (E-Skills) / Genevieve Smith-Nunes (Sussex Downs College) / Helen Wollaston (WISE/UKRC) / Hannah Jones (Connected Learning). As part of this I would like to ask a few questions of our female members and even have a quick chat with some of you about your experiences of working in IT. How long have you been working in IT? Is this your first, second, third, etc career? What other jobs / roles have you done previously? How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive? If any of the above is difficult to answer publicly feel free to PM me and it will be treated in complete confidence. If you are happy for me to quote you during the debate please let me know. As someone who believes in meritocracy it is an interesting debate to take part in.
CamelMan Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 I can answer a bit on behalf of my wife if thats of any help: 7 years in IT Excluding straight after school stuff (pick up put down jobs) she went into IT Private IT support company, major line IT sales company, IT Tech, Lead Tech, Network Manager 2 interviews No - in "the office" she'd feel excluded from some banter (nothing against her directly -> just guys talking guys stuff) out in schools it helped as alot of staff are female and they liked having a female come out to see them. Could argue minor sexism on both counts but overall it never bothered her. Being female had never worked against her getting a job in the first place. She said that most people in the industry actually went out of their way to help her (lifting boxes etc) Never considered IT at school - she just kinda of fell into it afterwards. Hope that helps As a side note a group of us went to look around a university when we were applying (basically lets go check the uni and city out and have a few beers) and one of our other friends (not applying for any uni) tagged along for the ride. When we were speaking to an admission's guy about grades etc - he turned to our female 'tag along friend' and basically told her that obviously the limits would be lower for her to encourage more girls. Now Im all for encouraging but this basic sexism (your a boy you have higher targets than the girl sitting next to you). Thought it might be useful as a look from "the other side" of the sexism debate. Would be interesting if this kind of "encouragement" makes up part of the debate. 1
elsiegee40 Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) How long have you been working in IT? Since I graduated (BSc Hons Computer Studies - Lancaster) in 1985. PCs appeared there in my final year. Is this your first, second, third, etc career? I've always worked in IT with a short career break when my eldest started primary school. I gave up then because the hours were not flexible enough for me to be able to do the school run and my other half worked in London. After a couple of years, I became a TA at the school, then the day before Ofsted arrived we got a virus on the network... and I 've worked in IT again ever since! What other jobs / roles have you done previously? Will PM my career history, but all in IT apart from the TA bit in the middle. How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? To get the programming traineeship I wanted took about 8 months after graduation. I went to about 10 interviews. Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? Back in the dark ages when I had my children, I was one of only 3 women amongst a department of 60. My requests to adjust my working hours caused no end of problems as they "didn't want to set a precedent". I had set a precedent by being the first systems Programmer there ever to get pregnant. On call nights, particularly when my other half was away and nobody had invented remote access, were an issue. I got my way eventually. Other than that, it wasn't a problem being female. I've never seen myself as being any different to the blokes and generally have had no issues. In fact, during my years in Tech Suport I was regarded as the outward face of a department that had many technically brilliant 'traditional' IT males who couldn't communicate with people who weren't technical If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive? I did Maths, Further Maths and Physics A Levels at a traditional grammar school that didn't believe in girls doing science. I was however, one of two daughters of a Mechanical Engineer and flirted with the idea of becoming an engineer myself. Broadly my school was useless, but an enlightened Physics teacher persuaded me and my two friends, between us top of the Physics set, to go to an Engineering Industry Training Board event promoting women in engineering at Loughborough University when we were in the lower sixth. I came away convinced that engineering was not for me, but liked the look of the computers. With none in the school, I really didn't consider computing as an option. My dad did bring home a Commodore PET from work from time to time to work on which he had to program himself, so I could see the potential though. One of my friends end up as an Engineer for Rolls Royce I went to uni to study accountancy and economics, but chose computer studies to make up my first year units. My marks reflected my interests and I changed my major. I really enjoyed the coding modules most which is why I decided that I wanted to become a programmer. After a few years as a programmer, I was doing more and more technical work and went for a Sytems Programmers job... Technical mainframe support. My PC skills are almost entirely self taught apart from some server training. Edited February 21, 2013 by elsiegee40 1
witch Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 How long have you been working in IT? 12 years directly but prior to that was in IT recruitment and electronics engineering Is this your first, second, third, etc career? Third - see above What other jobs / roles have you done previously? I am a qualified Marine Radio Officer and worked as a test engineer for several years, and then became an electronics/computer headhunter before my career break to have children. How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? Depends what you mean.First job as an IT tech (third career) - two Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? It may have helped in the very first instance as companies were looking to improve their numbers of women but that was a very long time ago If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive? None.But career advice was sadly lacking in my Bucks Grammar school. You went to University to do a trad subject or else. My three children have not had a much better experience more recently either. 1
GrumbleDook Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 Many thanks for the responses so far and for the PMs ... Keep them coming.
Domino Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Many thanks for the responses so far and for the PMs ... ....capitalisation danger avoided.
arwen Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 How long have you been working in IT? Since August 2006 Is this your first, second, third, etc career? First What other jobs / roles have you done previously? One part time for 3 years in a wee corner shop while I was at school. How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? One - apprentiship post. And one for my current full time post. Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? Depends on the sector I think. And personally I think there is more a push for female IT supervisors/managers rather than techs. If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive? I never really knew what I wanted to do at school, but I wanted to do all 3 sciences. Was told there was no way the school could accommodate that and I could only do two... If you want to know more (nearly a movie quote there ;-) ) I'm on gtalk all the time, just say who you are when you add me. Personally I dislike the whole pushing girls into science/IT professions. We don't push boys into taking up nursing or admin work. We also don't encourage girls to go work on construction sites for some reason... P.s. sorry if this edits weird... Doing it on my phone. 1
Little-Miss Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 (edited) How long have you been working in IT? Around 8 years on and off.... Is this your first, second, third, etc career? I started working at a charity, went into Nurse training but left that to go back into IT...so first i suppose. What other jobs / roles have you done previously? As above, Student nurse was my only other big role. Everything else was IT based. How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? My first "proper" job as a tech in IT was just one, but i didn't get the job first time around, but the person who originally got it walked out. (i soon learnt why!!) Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? Hmm...can never say its been a hindrance. Yes i've had people come in to quote for work, look me up and down and look around for who i was with but this may also be down to how young i look! The "you don't get many women in IT" statement does get a bit boring though. Can't say i've been aware that being a female has helped me, but i'm sure if i smile sweetly it helps. If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive? None really. I used to mention wanting to be an IT tech at my careers meetings but they were no help. When i asked for something IT related for Work Experience...i got sent to a local library.... Happy to be quoted though i doubt i've said anything interesting enough Edited February 21, 2013 by Little-Miss 1
witch Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 4 ladies and 1 by proxy?! Seriously? He has had some pms. It is half term so maybe the rest of the girls aren't on the boards ATM? Wasn't there a female geek group at one point?
Little-Miss Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 I suppose. It worries me that the ladies might hide away....
GrumbleDook Posted February 21, 2013 Author Posted February 21, 2013 He has had some pms. It is half term so maybe the rest of the girls aren't on the boards ATM? Wasn't there a female geek group at one point? This one I believe ... Female Techs - EduGeek.net If someone could post in there to this thread it would be appreciated. There are a number of other threads such as http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/76151-female-technicians.html http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/70774-ladies-what-route-did-any-you-take-get-into.html http://www.edugeek.net/forums/general-chat/2977-why-girl-thing.html
Ephelyon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 I know this thread is for the ladies but I'm bored so thought I'd throw in a musing. I also wanted to ask the ladies if what I'm about to say sounds sexist. Advance tip: it's really, really not meant to. I tend to find that the women in IT are damn good. My musing is that, sexism aside and just looking at the statistics, it's pretty much a male-dominated field. I'm inferring from that that if you want to make it in IT as a woman, you have to be really good, so the ones who do make it, are. I've seen a fair few guys who make me wonder why they're in IT... but I've never actually had cause to think that about a woman. Am I about to get roasted?
Little-Miss Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Unless i'm missing something, i don't think that's sexist. Just an observation. Also means i'm not going to get very far lol
Ephelyon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Meh, I only mention it because there was this one woman whom I managed to somehow offend by saying something like the above... maybe I just phrased it wrong (or was drunk, or both). Besides, you've got nearly 10 times my post thanks so I doubt you're not getting anywhere =]
Little-Miss Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 Haha! I think that's more cus i talk utter rubbish and amuse people. If my rep worked in real life, my plans of world domination wouldn't be just plans..
Ephelyon Posted February 21, 2013 Posted February 21, 2013 I think that's more cus i talk utter rubbish and amuse people. Key to life! =] 1
itgeek2008 Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 How long have you been working in IT? I have been on the field of IT for 14 years Is this your first, second, third, etc career? This is my first career from leaving school What other jobs / roles have you done previously? None How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? My first IT role I got after my first interview Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? I have felt both. For instance in the school environment it has helped as there seem to be more female teachers and they like to talk more to other tech female’s. I have also found that because I can explain things in a non-technical way compared to other males I know this has also helped (sorry to the males that are very good at this). I have found being a female more of a hindrance in business. Many a time I have gone to a customer’s site to fix a problem to be welcomed with the oh you’re a female! They soon change their tune once I have fixed their issue If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive? Didn’t consider this as a career at school it’s just something I feel into 1
purpleoakley Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 How long have you been working in IT? 3 years Is this your first, second, third, etc career? I worked as an IT technician for a year along side being a TA. This is my first full time roll. What other jobs / roles have you done previously? Teaching Assistant How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? I was very lucky just the 1 Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? 1
Smee Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 How long have you been working in IT? 15 years Is this your first, second, third, etc career? What other jobs / roles have you done previously? Not really had what I'd call a career before. Left school and ended up working in a bank for a few years, loading tape into "state of the art (or should that be ark!)" computers. Loads of part time jobs while my boys were little/at school. Never really knew what I wanted to do when I grew up and as I haven't grown up yet....... Ended up in IT after a European funded scheme to get women back to work after work break to raise children (their words not mine!), I ended up with a NVQ in ICT. How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? 1. think my honesty shocked them! I knew very little about IT and told the network manager who was interviewing me that he had to ask me what a LAN was as it was the only bit of techie talk I knew!!!! Once he'd stopped laughing I think he realized I'd be honest about my abilities and was and still am willing to learn. Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? Yes and no. Back in the day it was a case of spot the techie, they were the ones that had their keys on their waistband and Im afraid I was a little too loud for most of them. (I am pretty loud but its just something to hide behind!) IT was a male stronghold but the world has changed thankfully. I think there are still some people that are shocked to find a woman doing the jobs that they expect to be geared towards men, but I think thats more of a generation thing. for example my father in law knows that I work in IT but was surprised to find me installing a projector, he thought I just "typed a bit" I don't think being a woman is a hindrance but I am beginning to wonder if being an older woman in IT is going to cause me issues. Not my abilities but other peoples perceptions. If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive? When i was at school there wasn't any computers (yep Im that old!!) I left school just before I was 16 and the closest thing my school offered to anything technical for girls was an electric typewriter. sorry if I've waffled on a bit (no comments about my age ;p) Im still learning, I still enjoy what I do and I hope I'm still able to support my schools. 1
AMLinington Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 (edited) How long have you been working in IT? 5 years in 2 different jobs. Is this your first, second, third, etc career? My career path is convoluted. I graduated with a degree in Geology but wasn't able to pursue my real interest due to lack of money (I couldn't afford to go to London to do my masters) so I ended up bumming around working in a well known high street newsagent for 2 years while I applied for various graduate management schemes I wasn't massively interested in but didn't know what else to do. In the end I was so bored of the Sales assistant role that I took a job as a Merchandising rep for a computer games supplier. When the company went into liquidation and we were looking at redundancy I took the opportunity to do my PGCE. I reached the end of it knowing that I would LOVE to teach IT and was advised by the head of IT in a school I wanted to work in that I should get a years experience in first line support and apply for an NQT role (there was more to it than that but basically he didnt have a position at that time but he had plans to increase the department the following year except he ended up leaving and nothing happened). Long story short, my Best Friend worked as a 2nd line tech in an IT company and told me they were recruiting so he got me an interview (there was a referral bonus involved here too) and I got the job. I worked there for nearly 2 years and got some experience and qualifications out of it. They made my friend redundant and he ended up working for Smoothwall and when I was looking to leave my previous job (I decided that teaching really wasn't for me after all) I had several interviews with all sorts of companies but no job offers so half jokingly he sent my CV to Smoothwall, I got an interview and the Support Manager at the time liked me and took me on. But I'm under no illusions that both of my roles in IT have largely come about because Jason has recommended me and vouched for my skill. So technically, this is really my 5th career - Geologist > Sales Assistant > Rep > Teacher > IT Support Engineer. My interest and skill in IT started really early though - in my early teens and took off when I met my best friend as he encouraged and shared knowledge with me and I learned from him. By the time I was 18 I was able to build my own hardware but never thought to pursue it as a career because I had other interests I wanted to pursue. It doesn't help that we didn't do IT properly at school - it was a 'short course' worth half a GCSE and I was on track for an A* until someone stole my coursework and resubmitted it as their own. I couldn't prove it because they'd stolen the disk with it on as the school wouldn't let us keep backups of our own (some weird coursework rule) so even though 50% of my grade was stolen, I STILL managed to get a C which just goes to show how well I must have done in the exam... What other jobs / roles have you done previously? Geologist > Sales Assistant > Rep > Teacher > IT Support Engineer How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? Just one, but when I left my first IT job I had 5 or 6 interviews at other places. Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? I've never felt that, although it really does take a certain type of woman to do this job. It IS a heavily male dominated environment and I don't think every female personality type is suited to that. I've always got on better with men than with other women so I've never found it a problem - in fact I'm happier in an all male environment. I went to an all-girls school and I was miserable - I struggled to make friends because other girls find me quite intimidating. Men don't seem to have this problem so the majority of my friends are male. I do think there can be a lot of underestimation and assumption around women in IT though - I frequently answer the phone (both now and in my previous role) to customers and they ask to be put through to an Engineer. If I visit a customer site (and I don't currently do this but have before in my previous role) they are expecting a man and are visibly taken aback when I introduce myself. Some people have also had a tendancy not to trust my diagnosis and ask for a second opinion from a 'proper engineer'. This sort of attitude is becoming less and less prevailant but it still exists in places. I certainly encounter it a lot less now then I did in my first IT job. If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive? Very little, but then IT wasn't a 'mainstream' subject when I was doing my GCSEs - the school only had one Windows machine with a 28.8kbps internet connection and MS Encarta! All the rest were non-networked Acorns (Wow, I really feel old when I remember that and it's my big 30 this year too!). When I was at school the IT teachers WERE the technicians - infrastructure was not sufficiently advanced to require separate management. I had a good relationship with them and they often afforded me additional priviledges. The Coursework situation really stung especially when they said they couldn't do anything. My teacher said to my face that he KNEW Zahra had stolen it because her coursework was 'too good' to be hers but he couldn't prove it and there was no actual evidence. When I chose my A-levels at college our deputy head advised me to take Maths as it would support me in technical careers but that was about it. My 6th Form College didn't offer an IT A-level and I didn't have the proper GCSEs to do it at college so I did A-levels in Geography, Chemistry and Physics instead. You're welcome to use this information for the discussion. I'm sure my observations that certain female personality types are not suited to the IT environment would be a source of great debate, but I honestly believe it's true - all the women in IT I've worked with have been analytical with strong personalities and a tendancy towards being quite no-nonsense. I'm so much happier in a nerdy, techy environment - even when I was teaching I used to escape over to the IT department. I find other women very difficult to work with. That is not to say that I'm a 'tomboy' type - I'm totally the opposite. I adore Cats and have a Disney Princess obscession. I sew and crochet and make cute felt christmas decorations. I love looking at home furnishings and planning colour schemes and decor, I have minimal interest in cars and loathe sports. But I play World of Warcraft, tinker with computer hardware and have a technical screwdriver kit in the bottom of my handbag next to the lip balms, Kindle and pink cupcake diary! Edited February 22, 2013 by AMLinington 1
Blackcatowner Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 How long have you been working in IT? About 6 years (in a roundabout way) Is this your first, second, third, etc career? Third. Before this job I was an IT training adviser for Apprenticeships and the only person qualified in the company to be able to assess the technical NVQs. What other jobs / roles have you done previously? Mainly administration positions. How many interviews did it take to get your first job in IT? Quite a few, but I think this may be down to my unrelated career experiences. Have you ever felt that being female is a help or a hindrance to gaining a job in IT? I studied software engineering at university and I think it was a definite hindrance being female during my year in work for my course. The company took 6 of us and I was the only female, the manager we had just didn't have a clue what to do with me and I ended up getting all the pointless jobs. It totally knocked my confidence and when I graduated I just fell into administration. If you were considering IT (or other engineering / programming careers) whilst at school what support did you receive? I don’t remember getting any advice at school, there weren’t many computers there by the time I left so it was not really seen as a career. My parents advised me to look at what the IT courses at university required for A levels which at the time was Maths and Physics so I took those instead of an IT A level. 1
AMLinington Posted February 22, 2013 Posted February 22, 2013 I know this thread is for the ladies but I'm bored so thought I'd throw in a musing. I also wanted to ask the ladies if what I'm about to say sounds sexist. Advance tip: it's really, really not meant to. I tend to find that the women in IT are damn good. My musing is that, sexism aside and just looking at the statistics, it's pretty much a male-dominated field. I'm inferring from that that if you want to make it in IT as a woman, you have to be really good, so the ones who do make it, are. I've seen a fair few guys who make me wonder why they're in IT... but I've never actually had cause to think that about a woman. Am I about to get roasted? You're not going to get roasted at all - I agree completely. You see a lot of sub-standard male applicants for roles who have stumbled into IT because they didn't have anything better to do and it seemed better to do IT than nothing but some of the applicants I've seen can't even tell you what a Default Gateway is and claim to know about hardware but what they really mean is that they can connect their iPod to iTunes and know the difference between HDMI and VGA although struggle a bit with DVI and VGA! But usually when you see a female applicant she really has an interest and passion - you don't tend to see women in IT unless they really want to be there and have made the effort. I think it partly goes back to what I was saying about how not every female personality type is suitable for the environment and you'll probably find that a lot of women may have done IT but don't have the right personality and end up moving sideways into another type of role - administrative or training perhaps so the ones that are left are the ones that 'fit in'. 1
GrumbleDook Posted February 22, 2013 Author Posted February 22, 2013 I have to admit to having heated arguments with folk in RL about believing in meritocracy, and some of the fiercest ones have been with those striving for equal status for females ... who have actually been pushing for positive discrimination against males to allow more females into key roles ... I can understand why something needs to be done to force the change of status quo, but is this really the right way? Oh ... and thanks for those who have added their details too. Keep them coming folks. 1
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