waldronm2000 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Not sure whether this is the correct forum; maybe it's a hardware question, but... I was invited to an N-Computing product demo last week, where I was shown some X-series and L-series devices in action. I was surprisingly impressed with the X-series; less so with the L-series. Is anyone using any of these devices, and if so what are your experiences? My initial thoughts are that I'd like to have spares of everything on site, due to risk of failure causing loss of multiple seats, but apart from that would probably be happy to use the X-series devices.
nut-ed Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 There have been lots of comments on these and similar products over the licensing "legality" of running multiple users off one XP PC. It does seem counter-intuitive that Microsoft would allow this as it undermines their flagship terminal server products. If Ncomputing are prepared to give you written statement that their product does not contravene MS licensing policy you should be covered - if they just refer you to MS t&c's they are putting the responsibility onto you... Someone made the comment that MS are unlikely to sue a school, but they might 'fix' the registery hack that allows their single user products to be turned into multi-user products, or maybe more likely MS will make their imminent "Multipoint" product so attractive as to render unofficial XP/Vista based solutions redundant ! Windows MultiPoint Server 2010 home page 2
dwhyte85 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 We have 3 L series which I've not used yet because of the licensing issues, in testing they're great and do as they say on the tin... legally bit hesitant to use them, when forced to use them I'll probably buy the extra licensing just in-case. 1
Nick_Parker Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 One of the issues I've had with the nComputing stuff is the software doesn't work if you have certain updates installed, I've had to go through uninstall security updates one-by-one until I found the problem one and then bugger me if Windows Update didn't automatically install it the next day! 1
waldronm2000 Posted February 23, 2010 Author Posted February 23, 2010 I did raise the licensing issue with nComputing, as it seemed an obvious flaw in their sales pitch. They said they could send me a link to a Microsoft document that said it was ok as long as you buy a Server licence to cover the XP machine. I have yet to see how this affects the economics of the situation.
tmcd35 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 I have used both nComputing and SoftXpand in the past. Other threads on this subject can easily be found both on this forum and on my blog. I'm not convinced by the licensing of either product, even using Windows Server and Terminal Server licenses, although this does seem the most legal licensing I can find. nComputing's U-series, the USB attached KVM extenders, are supposed to be compatible with Microsofts Multipoint Server 2010. So there is a fully ligit licensing solution right there. I'm in the process of dotting the i's and crossing the t's with Microsoft/HP as we speak. We should have a Mulitpoint 2010 suite - 30 stations - going in over the Easter break and I'm already eyeing up uses in one or two of my Primaries (we're a Secondary and do cluster support). Multipoint Server 2010 (which I've physically tested, had a working demo in house for 2-weeks) is due to be launched sometime in March - perhaps towards the end of March, or so I'm lead to believe. 1
dhicks Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Is anyone using any of these devices, and if so what are your experiences? We run one 4-seat X-series machine in our staffroom at the moment. It's worked well so far - most problems the staff report as "it not working" are actually due to the huge build-up of spyware and assorted cruft you get as soon as a machine sits in the staffroom for any length of time, but obviously having one machine run multiple screens does make for a single point of failure if you don't have spares. We run Server 2003 with device CALS, no XP involved anywhere. I saw some nice all-in-one units demoed on LG's stand at BETT and had a talk with the staff there about Windows MultiPoint, which certainly seems like the best Windows-based option for a multi-seat machine. I've got to admit that if I was buying new hardware I'd been torn between multi-seat and something like the Acer Nettop machines, which aren't much bigger than the NComputing terminal devices anyway and are full-grown computers. As I pointed out yesterday, a new version of LTSP is now available that looks as though it can turn a PC into a web-browsing / thin client terminal. LTSP 5.2 will be included in the next release of Ubuntu, which is also an "long term support" LTS release, so it looks like an ideal choice for school-based thin client solutions. The latest release of Debian and, I think, the next release of Ubuntu, will also have support for multi-pointer X Windows, which should make it possible to simply stick a bunch of graphics cards in a machine, attach a bunch of USB mice and keyboards and bang, you have a multi-seat computer. Run a Windows TS server as a VM on the same machine and your users will be able to run MS Word and so on too. -- David Hicks 1
Guest TheLibrarian Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 I'll apologise now - Sorry! - because I'm being lazy... Does anyone know how / if Microsoft's MultiPoint Server works on a domain? I really don't want to have to create a hoofing great load of accounts on each PC. I imagine MultiPoint Server would work on a domain, but I'm wondering where the downside to this is and fear that lack of domain functionality would be killer downside.
tmcd35 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 (edited) 100% Yes! Multipoint Server will run on a domain. I know, I've physically joined 1 to my domain and it worked no probs! There are two versions of Multipoint Server. The OEM version and the Volume License version. Only the Volume License version can be joined to a domain. EDIT: Shameless plug, but take a gander at my blog - http://www.tmcd35.net - I've posted a couple of performance tests I did with official HP kit for Multipoint Server. Edited February 23, 2010 by tmcd35 4
nut-ed Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Good comments on all this on: If imitation is flattery, Microsoft MultiPoint will make NComputing blush - Brian Madden - BrianMadden.com The article makes it pretty clear MS are gunning for this market - and not many companies/products have survived going head to head with MS...! N-Computing are going to have to do something pretty spectactular to retain their market, least of which will be to sort out their licencing - MS might not take such a forgiving view when competing directly against their official product.... This seems to have more than a few parallels to the Citrix/MS situation of old, where Citrix produced a Multi-User version of Windows (well before Microsoft did), MS took Citrix to court with result ever since Citrix has had to be an "add-on" to terminal services... Luckily for Citrix early terminal services was pretty poor, leaving room for both companies to work together... I can't see Multipoint being "pretty poor" and leaving much room for an add-on product... 1
dhicks Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 N-Computing are going to have to do something pretty spectactular to retain their market I thought NComputing simply made multi-seat hardware? I'm gussing that they'll just cheerfully flog more of their multi-seat add-on cards in the future to run Windows MultiPoint Server. -- David Hicks
tmcd35 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 I thought NComputing simply made multi-seat hardware? -- David Hicks I thought you'd deployed nComputing on Windows There solution is primarliy based around their vSpace software - vSpace Desktop Virtualization and Virtual Computing Software - NComputing - which MS are apparantly happy with you using with Window Server and TS-Cals. Only their U-Series (as far as I know) is compatible with Mutlipoint Server. nComputing, HP and Wyse are all partnering Microsoft with the launch of Multipoint Server. Although you don't actually need any third party hardware to use Multipoint Server - A standard PC with enough VGA connectors and USB hubs is all you really need. 2
dhicks Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 I thought you'd deployed nComputing on Windows Yes, but I'd assumed that the part where NComputing make money is through selling their hardware - the software is just something that gets bundled along with the PCI card. nComputing, HP and Wyse are all partnering Microsoft with the launch of Multipoint Server. LG, too, I think - I think I saw an HP server with an NComputing card running LG screens with integrated NComputing X-Series terminals running at BETT. Although you don't actually need any third party hardware to use Multipoint Server - A standard PC with enough VGA connectors and USB hubs is all you really need. Ooh, didn't realise that! -- David Hicks
tmcd35 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Ooh, didn't realise that! Mmmm, All the HP/Wyse/nComp/etc 'Terminals' actually are - are basic USB hubs with USB sound adapter, usb video adapter and usb->ps/2 adapter plugged in. Of course its more neatly boxed than that and they may choose better graphics/sound chips. They'll also wrap it up so it appears to the PC as 1 device with 1 driver - neat. But still as far as Multipoint Server is concerned that's all they are! Multipoint Server works essentially the same way as SoftXpand - extend the display across all available graphics cards and then chop it up into individual workstations.
dhicks Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Multipoint Server works essentially the same way as SoftXpand - extend the display across all available graphics cards and then chop it up into individual workstations. Right: so is all I need for a Multipoint server a PC with, say, three double-port graphics cards? I just get a motherboard, harddrive, RAM, shove it all together in a case, then connect up the screens, lead a USB cable out to each screen and plug a powered USB hub in to it where I then plug in mouse, keyboard and USB sound adapter? I could even just use a screen with a built-in USB hub? How much set-up is involved in plugging all these bits in - is it simple to clump keyboards / mice/ monitors / USB sound together into "workstations"? For "USB sound", are those cheap Hong Kong £2-a-time USB sound adapters off eBay suitible? Does anyone know if touch-enabled monitors work with Multipoint Server? -- David Hicks
tmcd35 Posted February 23, 2010 Posted February 23, 2010 Spot on! Two caviates (there would be ). 1. I've not researched fully into how Multipoint handles sound - or if that's what makes usb extenders/terminals from the likes of HP/nComp/etc so special. 2. I'd assume that a touch screen presents it's self to a PC as a usb HID - or basically, a mouse. If this is the case then the touch screen would work like any other usb mouse. So why not? What I do know is that the graphics 100% work the way I've described and keyboards and mice are mapped based on which USB hub they are plugged into. When you first boot the system you are told on screen to press a letter on the keyboard. That keypress maps that keyboard to the screen with that letter on it. Any mice plugged into the same USB hub as that keyboard automatically get mapped to the same screen. Job done. So yes - 3 dual port graphics cards would get you 6 workstations. You can use (as far as I can tell) Touch screen monitors with built in USB hubs and just plug a usb keyboard into each monitor. 2
nut-ed Posted February 24, 2010 Posted February 24, 2010 (edited) =dhicks;........ I'm guessing that they'll just cheerfully flog more of their multi-seat add-on cards in the future to run Windows MultiPoint Server. -- David Hicks ...But don't underestimate the "HP effect" - They don't even have to make the "best" product to dominate a market, many organisations are just "comfortable" with the HP brand. This will be a factor N-Computing don't currently have to contend with... (HP have been successful in the traditional thin client market with pretty uninspiring products, compared to the dedicated thin client manufacturers' products) If what TMCD says above is true, and he seems pretty clued up on this, Ncomputing introduced and popularised the technology - but don't have a unique selling point.... Edited February 24, 2010 by nut-ed 1
plexer Posted February 25, 2010 Posted February 25, 2010 Right: so is all I need for a Multipoint server a PC with, say, three double-port graphics cards? I just get a motherboard, harddrive, RAM, shove it all together in a case, then connect up the screens, lead a USB cable out to each screen and plug a powered USB hub in to it where I then plug in mouse, keyboard and USB sound adapter? I could even just use a screen with a built-in USB hub? How much set-up is involved in plugging all these bits in - is it simple to clump keyboards / mice/ monitors / USB sound together into "workstations"? For "USB sound", are those cheap Hong Kong £2-a-time USB sound adapters off eBay suitible? Does anyone know if touch-enabled monitors work with Multipoint Server? -- David Hicks The Ncomputing solution using probably the new u series usb connected ones for ease of install connect to the host via a usb cable, the monitor, keyboard etc... all plug into the ncomputing box. Ben
dhicks Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 Ncomputing introduced and popularised the technology - but don't have a unique selling point.... I don't think HP are making their own multi-seat hardware, I think they (or, more likely, end retailers) are simply sticking NComputing cards in their HP PCs. So the multi-seat solution you buy consists of products from at least four companies: an HP PC, a couple of NComputing cards, LG NComputing-integrated monitors and Microsoft Multipoint Server. NComputing cards seem to provide more screens than would typically be available with just multiple multi-head graphics cards (I think you'd struggle to physically fit 5 graphics cards in most PCs, plus they'd draw a fair bit of power and cost a fair bit) and the cabling (standard cat5) is easier to run (and probably works over a longer distance) than VGA cables. -- David Hicks
nut-ed Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 I don't think HP are making their own multi-seat hardware, I think they (or, more likely, end retailers) are simply sticking NComputing cards in their HP PCs. So the multi-seat solution you buy consists of products from at least four companies: an HP PC, a couple of NComputing cards, LG NComputing-integrated monitors and Microsoft Multipoint Server. NComputing cards seem to provide more screens than would typically be available with just multiple multi-head graphics cards (I think you'd struggle to physically fit 5 graphics cards in most PCs, plus they'd draw a fair bit of power and cost a fair bit) and the cabling (standard cat5) is easier to run (and probably works over a longer distance) than VGA cables. -- David Hicks This is the HP device: http://bizsupport1.austin.hp.com/bc/docs/support/SupportManual/c01923375/c01923375.pdf I can't see it having any relationship with Ncomputing except as competitor - and in the blurb HP go out of their way saying it is fully supported and fully licenced - possibly a sideways dig at Ncomputing ? This device connects by USB to host, not cat5. That seems to to be the "interesting" point and introduces the benefits and disadvantages, ie avoids the performance hit for multimedia over TCP/IP (RDP), but also introduces the cabling issues and other considerations when moving away from tried and trusted Ethernet into something proprietary... I guess the CAT5 Ncomputing device is just a generic RDP thin client, pricewise it is in the same ballpark. Does anyone know if the USB devices from Ncomputing and HP will be compatible ? would seem doubtful as Ncomputing have their own software - and HP will be using Microsoft's Multipoint which wasn't (isn't!) around when Ncomputing started....
dhicks Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 This is the HP device Oh, right, hadn't seen those before - yes, looks like HP are making their own multi-seat hardware, then. I guess the CAT5 Ncomputing device is just a generic RDP thin client Nope, NComputing's devices use standard Cat5 cable to connect but have nothing to do with ethernet or RDP. -- David Hicks
tmcd35 Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 Yes HP's box is it's own device - the T100 and it comes with the Multipoint Server Client Access License. Nothing proprietory about it. It's basically a graphics card and PS/2 keyboard/mouse convertor plugged into a standard USB port. Cabling wise it's the same 1 cable from PC to 1 device as the nComputing solution, just that HP uses USB instead of RJ45. The nComputing X300 series RJ45 is propreitory and DOES NOT run over standared ethernet networks. The X500 series on the other hand does run over standard ethernet and the U300's are basically the same as the HP boxes - USB based. As far as I can tell th nComputing U300 series are compatible with Multipoint Server although you'll need to buy the CAL's for those. And yes, so long as the device is compatible with Multipoint Server and you have the correct number of CALs the you can mix and match to your hearts content. No reason why you can't have 1 PC with a couple of screens run from standard VGA graphics and USB hubs, a couple of screens run from HP T100's, a couple of screens run from nComputing U300's and a couple of screens run from the Wyse equivilant. Can't see why you'd purposefully design such a frankenstine setup but certainly useful down the road when you look at spares and repairs.
plexer Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 Don't you mean the U-170's? U-series Desktop Virtualization and Virtual Computing Products - NComputing I am just waiting for pricing on these from my reseller for our reception area. Yes they are compatible with MultiPoint server, who has pricing on that and cals at the moment as I can't see it on the ramesys website. Ben 1
pritchardavid Posted March 1, 2010 Posted March 1, 2010 Where can we get hold of the HP T100 boxes, really would like to test this out (We need 4 classrooms worth of new pcs which is 140 computers plus spares) So this should be cheaper to do!
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