N-Computing: Anyone using?

[tmcd35]

Where can we get hold of the HP T100 boxes, really would like to test this out (We need 4 classrooms worth of new pcs which is 140 computers plus spares) So this should be cheaper to do!

 

Novus Networks Ltd are handling everything for me at the moment.

 

As for cheaper, in theory. I normally pay around £12k for an ICT Suite. Usinging complete HP kit on a 5 users to 1PC ratio, buying a teachers PC and some spare kit, I'm hovering around the £11k marker. If I built my own kit rather than use HP, which I intend to do next time, then the figure drops below £10k for 30 machines.

 

Alot depends on a) the spec of the base units you use, b) the user to computer ratio - the systems support upto 10:1 but you have to question performance at that ration, and c) if you buy any spares or stand alone teacher PC's.

Edited March 2, 2010 by tmcd35

[nut-ed]

Novus Networks Ltd are handling everything for me at the moment.

 

As for cheaper, in theory. I normally pay around £12k for an ICT Suite. Usinging complete HP kit on a 5 users to 1PC ratio, buying a teachers PC and some spare kit, I'm hovering around the £11k marker. If I built my own kit rather than use HP, which I intend to do next time, then the figure drops below £10k for 30 machines.

 

Alot depends on a) the spec of the base units you use, b) the user to computer ratio - the systems support upto 10:1 but you have to question performance at that ration, and c) if you buy any spares or stand alone teacher PC's.

 

based on the above do you expect this to work out cheaper than deploying "conventional" server based thin clients, doing the maths quickly it doesn't seem to - the capital cost would look to be about the same as 30 thin clients + server, the total cost when factoring power usage, extra support, etc could be much higher...

 

In terms of support I'm seeing this as supporting 4 or 5 "little" terminal servers as opposed to one big one in terms of backing up, securing, anti-virus, software updates etc. and these 'little' terminal servers being deployed in potentially adverse and distant locations (classrooms!).

 

Do you see this as a premium solution....?

[tmcd35]

based on the above do you expect this to work out cheaper than deploying "conventional" server based thin clients, doing the maths quickly it doesn't seem to - the capital cost would look to be about the same as 30 thin clients + server, the total cost when factoring power usage, extra support, etc could be much higher...

 

In terms of support I'm seeing this as supporting 4 or 5 "little" terminal servers as opposed to one big one in terms of backing up, securing, anti-virus, software updates etc. and these 'little' terminal servers being deployed in potentially adverse and distant locations (classrooms!).

 

Do you see this as a premium solution....?

 

I see this as Desktop Virtualisation done properly. As in we are virtualising the desktop in the same manor and for the same reasons as virtualising the server - getting 1 PC to take up the work of 4 or 5 pc's and use some of that wasted computing power you're paying for with individual desktops.

 

In terms of support - I treat them as individual desktops. They are deployed an managed as such. I keep 1 spare box for emergancy swap outs and that's about it. That is I see this as supporting 4 or 5 desktops instead of 30 desktops, rather than as supporting 4 or 5 mini terminal servers instes of 1 terminal server.

 

As for comparing them to traditional thin clients. Yes it probably does cost around the same (never woeked it out). Yes a traditional thin client would be easier to support. However you have the multimedia costs of running thing clients. Even server hosted VDI solutions like VMWare View has some lag when working on multimedia tasks. Protocosl such as RDP, ICA, etc are not really up to the task.

 

This is about reducing the amount of physical hardware you manage/support. Getting more value/use out of the hardware. But also keeping the raw computing power at the users desktop where it belongs rather than trying to move the power in to the server room.

 

Building my own suite of computers and taking some cost saving into account from reduced electricity bills I make an average of £280 per seat using this solution compared to £450 (average) per seat using standard desktops.

Edited March 2, 2010 by tmcd35

[BHMS]

I've found the NComputing X550 great for our middle schools needs. I've been running a small test setup from the same machine I work on in the corner of our IT suite (2.2Ghz dual core E2200, 2GB Ram) running 4 workstations other than mine. We don't run any 3D applications and very little in the way of multimedia so there are very few drawbacks to the system. Only time it chugs is when at least 2 children are running some intensive flash games it maxes both cores out at 100%.

 

I'm planning on rolling it out for the rest of the suite after Easter. 4 towers + 4 x windows server (2003) + 7 x X550 units + 31 TS CALs for the entire suite. Totals under £5500 for the whole suite, only £175/station using existing peripherals/monitors.

 

I'm hoping 8 threads/4 cores should stop flash games killing the performance. It rarely happens even with 2 cores between 5 users, should be almost non-existent with 8 threads for 11 users. Memory usage is surprisingly conservative. I'm expecting 3-4GB to be enough but it will be the first thing to upgrade once they release 64bit support (I will upgrade to 2008 R2 around the same time hopefully). I'm also replacing the hard drives with a decent SSD to keep the systems responsive when there will be 10 users worth of disk access.

[Nick_Parker]

Slightly off-topic... is there anyway you can use the L-Series as normal RDP thin clients?

[plexer]

Slightly off-topic... is there anyway you can use the L-Series as normal RDP thin clients?

 

Nope because they communicate using their own UXP protocol.

 

http://www.ncomputing.com/Portals/0/docs/whitepapers/en/whitepaper_virtualization.pdf

 

Ben

[Nick_Parker]

Nope because they communicate using their own UXP protocol.

 

http://www.ncomputing.com/Portals/0/docs/whitepapers/en/whitepaper_virtualization.pdf

 

Ben

 

Bother

I really don't like the ncomputing software, always complaining about incompatible windows updates yadda yadda...

 

Thanks Plexer

[plexer]

The u-170 being usb and compatible with multipoint server shouldn't have such a limitation then.

 

Ben

[waldronm2000]

I got the following reply back from Microsoft regarding licensing for nComputing:

 

 

Thank you for inquiring about Windows XP license rights for NComputing’s vSpace software solutions.

 

This e-mail confirms that for a limited time only, Microsoft has granted to NComputing certain limited rights to give its end user customers the ability to use NComputing vSpace software with Microsoft Windows XP in multi-user environments, so long as certain requirements are met by such end user customers. These requirements include the following:

 

· The NComputing vSpace software must have been purchased after November 16, 2009.

 

· The end user customer must have licensed the appropriate number of Windows Server operating system and associated Client Access Licenses (“CALs”) for simultaneous access by multiple users to the licensed computer.

 

· If the appropriate Windows Server operating license(s) and CALs have been obtained, then such customer may install and run the NComputing vSpace Software on a separately licensed Windows XP client operating system in lieu of the Windows Server operating system.

 

· The Windows Server operating system software or the Windows XP client operating system software may be used, but not both.

 

To work with NComputing products today, you will need to license and use Windows Server 2003 R2 or Windows Server 2008. You will need to acquire Windows Server 2008 CALs and Remote Desktop Services (RDS) CALs for each station including the host computer if you are using the host computer as a station. In the future, it is possible you may be able to license and use Windows Server 2008 R2 and Windows MultiPoint Server 2010 to work with NComputing products.

 

 

 

While Microsoft has granted these limited rights for use of the Windows XP client operating system configuration under these specific circumstances, all support for NComputing’s vSpace software running on Windows XP is solely provided by NComputing.

 

Microsoft neither promotes nor provides any support for NComputing vSpace Software or for the Windows XP client operating system in this configuration. Windows XP was not designed for multiple users to run multiple sessions. Microsoft’s recommended configuration is the Windows Server product for which you are licensed.

 

For any questions or issues you may have relating to the NComputing vSpace software and its use with the Windows XP client operating system, please seek support from NComputing at: NComputing Tech Support

 

There are no rights granted by Microsoft or NComputing to allow multiple simultaneous users to access and use the operating system software for Windows Vista, Windows 7, or any other Microsoft client operating system.

[tmcd35]

So that's (assuming you build your own host box) - 1xOEM copy of Windows XP @ approx. £100. 1xVL Copy of Win Server @ approx £55. and £5ish per CAL.

 

So for a 5 user system you are looking at £170 in MS Software licensing before you buy the nComputing kit...

 

EDIT: If you buy a OEM PC with Windows XP included then thats £70 for 5 users to get started. Also I forgot to work out the cost of the VL WinXP Upgrade another £30 or so that you'll need if you want to use your VL XP image.

Edited March 3, 2010 by tmcd35

[Nick_Parker]

I just discovered that the vSpace software for the L-Series for Server 2008 doesn't support 64bit, only 32bit. I have a server set aside just for this with 8GB RAM and now the other 4GB are going to go to waste

[nut-ed]

One of the issues I've had with the nComputing stuff is the software doesn't work if you have certain updates installed, I've had to go through uninstall security updates one-by-one until I found the problem one and then bugger me if Windows Update didn't automatically install it the next day!

 

Here are some interesting comments from people who have used both systems (Ncomputing + HP thin clients.....)

 

Ncomputing Vs Hp thin clients > NComputing User Forums > NComputing

 

 

I guess the point about Windows updates 'breaking' the Ncomputing software is related to the fact that Microsoft don't officially recognise Ncomputing as a partner - (ref. Microsoft's letter), so Ncomputing don't get official MS support or advance copies to test etc - rather they have to reverse engineer once updates are released, so will always be a step behind, so automatic Windows updates will be problematic...

 

We have to assume Microsoft's Multipoint won't suffer same way...!

 

I read today Wyse are releasing a US$99 Multipoint terminal, that figure is probably less than the profit margin they make on their high end models !

 

Does anyone know what the max length for the USB connection is...?

[Nick_Parker]

I think it's 5m

[tmcd35]

Here are some interesting comments from people who have used both systems (Ncomputing + HP thin clients.....)

 

Ncomputing Vs Hp thin clients > NComputing User Forums > NComputing

 

 

This link is a little invalid (if that's the right word). It is comparing nComputings Multiseat solution with HP's Terminal Services solution. It is not comparing nComputing with HP's T100 Multiseat solution or MS Multipoint Server.

 

So no, these people have not used both systems so to speak.

 

We have to assume Microsoft's Multipoint won't suffer same way...!

 

When I tested Multipoint Server the first thing I did was run Windows Update. It downloaded and installed Windows 2008R2 updates. There were zero problems with Windows Update and I was testing one of the last release candidates which was downloading updates for the current released version of 2008R2.

 

I don't do Windows Updates on my nComputing setup because I don't want to faff about fixing it when it breaks.

 

I read today Wyse are releasing a US$99 Multipoint terminal, that figure is probably less than the profit margin they make on their high end models !

Not a bad price. Roughly in line with nComputing U-170 I think. The HP T-100 comes in at arounf £130ish. But that does include the Mutlipoint CAL. Does the Wyse include the CAL at that price?

 

 

Does anyone know what the max length for the USB connection is...?

Yes it is 5m. Although you can extend that with powered extenders or hubs. not sure what the max total length including powered hubs is though.

[plexer]

NComputing U-170 is £99 even though their advertised $ price is $99 just wondering if it is cheaper to do the windows multipoint server even when I might only be making 1 computer into 2?

 

Ben

[tmcd35]

Ben, is there a reason for not just putting a second computer there or using traditional Terminal Services?

 

I'm not convinced of the cost savings of any solution on a 2:1 ratio.

 

That said it probably depends on what OS you want to use and whether you have that already. If you want XP and have the OEM/VL license already then there isn't any difference in cost between Multipoint + CALs and Server08 std + CALs. The nComputing devices are cheaper though - just don't update the OS

[nut-ed]

This link is a little invalid (if that's the right word). It is comparing nComputings Multiseat solution with HP's Terminal Services solution. It is not comparing nComputing with HP's T100 Multiseat solution or MS Multipoint Server.

 

So no, these people have not used both systems so to speak.

 

QUOTE]

 

Fair Point ! but no one's actually seen Multipoint in action yet, and the assumption seems to be Ncomputing over USB is similar to what Multipoint will provide (?) ....and those users found Ncomputer lacking when compared with today's thin clients...

 

Multipoint may be a great solution, it will be very interesting to compare this with Terminal Services when it becomes available, we all know the limitations of Terminal Services/Citrix, but it does provide a very workable solution for most cases and it is robust and widely supported- Multipoint is still an unknown entity.

 

The first version of terminal services (W2000) would also have looked great on paper, but in reality it was a little ropey.

 

It will be interesting to see how Microsoft position Multipoint v. W2008, if its a lot cheaper they may de-function it...

[tmcd35]

Fair Point ! but no one's actually seen Multipoint in action yet, and the assumption seems to be Ncomputing over USB is similar to what Multipoint will provide (?) ....and those users found Ncomputer lacking when compared with today's thin clients...

 

Multipoint Server Performance Testing – Video School Network Manager

 

I'll be updating my blog as the system is implemented and reporting on how well it works in the real world in due course.

 

 

It will be interesting to see how Microsoft position Multipoint v. W2008, if its a lot cheaper they may de-function it...

 

They are the same price, standard + CALs.

[plexer]

Ben, is there a reason for not just putting a second computer there or using traditional Terminal Services?

 

I'm not convinced of the cost savings of any solution on a 2:1 ratio.

 

That said it probably depends on what OS you want to use and whether you have that already. If you want XP and have the OEM/VL license already then there isn't any difference in cost between Multipoint + CALs and Server08 std + CALs. The nComputing devices are cheaper though - just don't update the OS

 

This particular usage is our reception desk where there isn't enough space for a second computer however I can wall mount a tft and use the usb u-170 to give them 2 computers.

 

Ben

[plexer]

I just discovered that the vSpace software for the L-Series for Server 2008 doesn't support 64bit, only 32bit. I have a server set aside just for this with 8GB RAM and now the other 4GB are going to go to waste

 

Bother

I really don't like the ncomputing software, always complaining about incompatible windows updates yadda yadda...

 

Thanks Plexer

 

I thought you'd deployed nComputing on Windows There solution is primarliy based around their vSpace software - vSpace Desktop Virtualization and Virtual Computing Software - NComputing - which MS are apparantly happy with you using with Window Server and TS-Cals.

 

Only their U-Series (as far as I know) is compatible with Mutlipoint Server.

 

nComputing, HP and Wyse are all partnering Microsoft with the launch of Multipoint Server. Although you don't actually need any third party hardware to use Multipoint Server - A standard PC with enough VGA connectors and USB hubs is all you really need.

 

NComputing are writing drivers for the X and L series to make them multipoint capable and these should be available in May which makes this solution look good.

 

Ben

[BHMS]

Can anyone tell me if there is any hardware acceleration for flash 10.1, video or 3D in MPS2010? If nobody knows can anyone test a system with a mainstream graphics card or better? CPU power is still going to be the limiting factor for delivering multimedia on multiseat systems until they get hardware acceleration working.

[verygreenpc]

Hi BHMS, these features are disabled by default, so we just switched on the embedded hardware acceleration features of the graphics cards when testing.

[nut-ed]

A thought to share....

 

...all these new technologies based on multiple clusters of PC + various bits of hardware...

 

Maybe one day someone will come up with a technology where you just have one PC supporting dozens of users - and be able to lock the PC far away from the kids, and

not be constrained by cable lengths, and use nice thin cable that can be embedded in walls and just use generic Microsoft products - and not be constrained to one vendors technology.... and supposing such a technology could operate over WANs and be aplicable for home users, and support all sorts of peripherals, and centralise all the virus, content, update management to one server (ooop I mean PC)....

 

..and be greener in terms of total power consumption...

 

Oh well, one can dream.....maybe one day!

[tmcd35]

Not sure what you're getting at @nut-ed? Terminal Services, Citrix, nComputing, VDI and Wyse Zero Clients all fit this description to a greater or lesser extent. ATM Wyse Zero Clients look the most promissing/interesting but I'm yet to get my hands on some hard and fast pricing and performance details.

 

For me, so far, Clustered Multiseat Computing has struck the best balance between price, performance and systems management which is why I'm actively heading down this route.

[BHMS]

So the ultimate (reasonably cost effective) solution with multipoint server 2010 would be to whack 2 of these into a system:

 

PowerColor jumps on the Eyefinity bandwagon, breaks off a wheel -- Engadget

 

Connect up monitors using mini-display port adaptors and you have full hardware acceleration for up to 10 workstations for about £300-£350 extra assuming your systems have 2 PCI-E x16 slots and a sufficient power supply. That seems fantastic value for money, especially for multimedia intensive systems. Just need to wait for those graphics cards to filter into retail as they have only just been released.