[sims] Solus 3 - Why bother for clients?

[enjay]

I've just installed Solus 3 (I know, I'm coming to this party a little late!), and having spent the morning chasing round PCs which weren't turned on or have DNS quirks, I'm now questioning whether using Solus 3 is the right way to install the clients. I like being able to schedule the server upgrade for out-of-hours, but the client installs seems worse than our method of having a startup script which called simsapplicationsetup.exe

 

Am I missing something, perhaps some other advantage of Solus 3 that I've not recognised yet, or should I stick with what we had been doing?

[Rawns]

You missed the party @enjay. Everyone else who's been dabbling with SOLUS3 is suffering with the hang over!!!

 

I think in Capita's mind, every single school has WOL technology implemented. And at night, every single SIMS/FMS/Discover device is on site and connected up to the network. Then when an upgrade goes out, every single machine can be switched on at 3am, upgraded by SOLUS3 and then shut down again ready for staff to crack on in the morning.

 

This is obviously not the case.

 

For upgrades, it's an aweful piece of software that never quite works how it should. For brand new installs of SIMS/FMS/Discover, it works surprisingly well with no interaction required.

[enjay]

We do have WOL implemented, and it boots the staff computers at 7am, allowing time for new software, WSUS, anti-virus updates, etc to install. Curriculum PCs boot at 8am, ensuring that they have time to do all that stuff and be ready in time for registration. There are then a few which don't/can't/won't WOL, and those are turned on by the "owner" who knows to go do something else for 10 minutes.

 

A startup script installing SIMS works wonderfully in that environment, and Solus 3 seems like several steps backwards.

[synaesthesia]

I still think the majority of people, even those that like Solus 3 (I'm in two minds - great idea implemented in an iffy way) would like the option of an updatable MSI. Not entirely difficult.

[enjay]

Also, once Solus 3 has completed, it puts a box up on screen saying "no new updates" or something, which is a little misleading considering it has just done an update!

[Rawns]

A startup script installing SIMS works wonderfully in that environment, and Solus 3 seems like several steps backwards.

 

Agreed. Our SOLUS2 and CentraStage Script combination worked wonders. Now all I seem to see is upgrade failures as SOLUS3 is playing silly beggers!

 

I still think the majority of people, even those that like Solus 3 (I'm in two minds - great idea implemented in an iffy way) would like the option of an updatable MSI. Not entirely difficult.

 

I'm sure I saw a thread about this somewhere where everyone was asking for MSI's but for some reason, Capita thought these were a bad thing?

 

One day, maybe Capita will create an uninstaller for SIMS!

Edited February 1, 2013 by Rawns

[sparkeh]

I still think the majority of people, even those that like Solus 3 (I'm in two minds - great idea implemented in an iffy way) would like the option of an updatable MSI. Not entirely difficult.

What, like all the people called for in this thread: http://www.edugeek.net/forums/mis-systems/10114-sims-msi.html but Capita didn't listen and thought they knew better and went about reinventing the wheel when most people have some kind of software deployment mechanism that is ideal for distributing industry standard msi?

Yep.

[Meldrew]

Agreed, having SOLUS3 to upgrade the server works quite well (although I still hate the interface) but for clients is just a pain. Also, it seems to use quite alot of RAM for the agent... I've removed all the agents from clients and now use a small utility I wrote to snatch the extracted SIMSApplication.exe from a single client PC whilst the agent is installing the update.

 

I then roll this exe out to other client PCs.

[enjay]

I've removed all the agents from clients and now use a small utility I wrote to snatch the extracted SIMSApplication.exe from a single client PC whilst the agent is installing the update.

 

I was thinking I might get the ISO of each update, and then copy it from that!

[Rawns]

What bugs me is that the Discover Client is available in MSI format!!! Why not SIMS and FMS?!

[sparkeh]

What bugs me is that the Discover Client is available in MSI format!!! Why not SIMS and FMS?!

For some reason they seem ideologically against giving us an msi. I just don't understand it, its not difficult but they won't listen.

[Rawns]

For some reason they seem ideologically against giving us an msi. I just don't understand it, its not difficult but they won't listen.

 

Maybe time to re-raise it with @PhilNeal? I guess though wityh alot of time and effort going into SOLUS3, it will be like flogging a dead horse!

 

We have a South West SOLUS3 Technical Day in March and John Wood will be taking it. Should be interesting.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Rawns

[sparkeh]

Well, we already convinced @PhilNeal once and it still didn't happen so my hopes are low:

Everyone - I really appreciate your help in understanding how MSI wrappers would help schools.

 

I have been convinced and have asked the team to see how we could support MSI wrappers. We do need to find a way to make MSI wrappers co-exsist with the existing deployment model because there are a huge number of schools that could not use MSI.

We will be looking for volunteers to field trial the new system in the autumn term so that it can be released in the first quarter of 2009.

 

The deployment engine is using MSI. Changes to the EXEs can be patched which means that upgrades will be much faster. It will include notification to people using SIMS that they have to get out and allow you to throw them off too.

 

*tumbleweed*

[synaesthesia]

Not like it's difficult or anything - it wasn't long ago I was making the MSI's myself using nothing more advanced than the system supplied with RM CC3. If you can do it on an RM system you can do it with a bog roll, empty washing up bottle and plenty of sticky back plastic.

[Ghostgame]

Maybe Solus3.5 will address all our issues.

[Rawns]

Maybe Solus3.5 will address all our issues.

 

Or SOLUS 4!

[matt40k]

If you've got "DNS quirks" then quite frankly your doom - it's going to affect loads of things like GPO - you shouldn't be relying on NetBIOS lookups. There are pro's and con's to using MSI, like the issue with multiple instances, the fact only one MSI installation can occur at once and the whole overly complex for some scenario - ie a xcopy of a dll would be better. The wise installer they use is pretty basic and just slaps the files on again and again and doesn't worry about such things like it's already installed or some idiot has mangled it up - ok sometimes the repair option works but too often I've wasted time trying to unpick msi when it shouldn't be needed. Besides SOLUS3 is much more then just installing\updating clients. Anyway, one the advantages of the current format is you can wrap it into a MSI - like RM does. Anyway, here's my stab at it - SIMS MSI - Home - pretty basic. Hopefully it'll keep you all from wasting Capita time so they can concentrate on the more important things. Personally I though IT people would be pro new technology and innovation and would be jumping at the chance to get new features added... guess not.

 

PS: I'll let @Rawns off, it's a shame more people aren't using SIMS and CentraStage - cause if enough people did, it'll be worth packaging everything SIMS'y on CentraStage - and I do me everything - all the patches, releases, everything so SOLUS isn't used at all

 

Anyway, all pretty pointless as it'll be all Azure based at some point.

[psydii]

Personally I though IT people would be pro new technology and innovation and would be jumping at the chance to get new features added... guess not.

.....

 

Anyway, all pretty pointless as it'll be all Azure based at some point.

 

The correct way (From Windows 98 through Windows 7 and even 8) is a properly written MSI, with updates distributed as MSP for integration and a wrapper that installs dependecies if required, that can be manually overridden by the Admin. This is the MS way. If used as a baseline, every other method follows on nicely. This has been true since the end of the nineties. Anything else should be opposed as it does not move us forward.

 

 

Now with Windows 8 the game is changing... however as you point out it'll most likely be a completely new client that runs in the browser served from Azure or similar... Mind you if capita are true to form it would require an activex pluging which needs a separate installation into a specific browser version, through a non deployable package to make it work.

 

It's been a while since I played in the SIMS world... shame to hear they have stuffed up their installer so badly (again). Here is how it should work:

 

Capita release update

Local installed SIMS servers download update packages automatically.

Local Admin alerted to new version. Also given list of know clients and what versions they have available.

Clients download (via BITS or similar technology) new version from local server. They do not install because the server has not been updated.

The Admin notes when 'enough' clients have the new version ready to go, and authorises the server update.

The Clients detect the server has updated, and update themselves to match that version.

Er. That's it.

Not rocket science.

 

Though of course the files should also be available in a format that allows them to be easily distributed through pre-existing standard software management tools...

[sparkeh]

There are pro's and con's to using MSI, like the issue with multiple instances, the fact only one MSI installation can occur at once and the whole overly complex for some scenario - ie a xcopy of a dll would be better.

Eh? Do you realise just how incredibly easy it is to knock up an msi? Spend a minute with Advanced Installer and you can see how easy it is to configure the multiple instances and upgrade behaviour. Having one installation going on at one time is a good thing. Overly complex? Again msi creation is trivial.

 

The wise installer they use is pretty basic and just slaps the files on again and again and doesn't worry about such things like it's already installed or some idiot has mangled it up

Or success/failiure reporting. Msi gives us very handy reporting capability.

 

too often I've wasted time trying to unpick msi when it shouldn't be needed.

Just plain don't understand it, why would you ever need to unpick an msi?

 

Anyway, one the advantages of the current format is you can wrap it into a MSI

LOL! Then why can't they supply it like this!!

 

Hopefully it'll keep you all from wasting Capita time so they can concentrate on the more important things.

They seem pretty happy to waste our time dicking around with their flakey deployment system.

 

Personally I though IT people would be pro new technology and innovation and would be jumping at the chance to get new features added... guess not.

New technology that makes a positive contribution yes. Makes my life more difficult? No.

[enjay]

Okay, so it looks like I'm not alone in thinking Solus 3 isn't the way to approach this, so how are people installing updates instead?

[enjay]

I was talking to one of the support engineers at Capita about this earlier today, as he had been helping me with a Solus 3 issue. He says that Capita did consider MSIs but decided against them, and advised me to contact our account manager and tell them why I'm not going to use Solus again. I said that these reasons were well-documented by lots of people on EduGeek already, but I'll contact them again.

 

Apparently, they're dropping support from Solus 2 in Sprind 2014 as well, but he assures me that there will still be an alternative deployment method other than Solus 3.

[matt40k]

If you have to upgrade 100's of instances of sims on a single server, you'd want multiple installers running. Especially if each instance had mutliple parts.

 

I'll say it again, do you honestly think Capita, the Microsoft (Gold?) Partner who has spent time and money getting a Microsoft professionals in to give them advise about how to deploy applications - professionals in there field wouldn't use MSI without good reasons. Would Capita spend money making something if they didn't have to, that costs THEM money but doesn't return them anything? I could understand it if they charged extra for SOLUS, but they don't. The same company that charges hundreds of pounds for patch that is only 5 lines of code and 2 of them are comments. Come on people, engage brains and accept that they aren't idiots and they don't do something "just cause".

 

Bah, where is that brick wall.

 

PS: The alternative will be something like the ISO they currently do.

[sparkeh]

Ok my last post on this as its getting tiresome to argue against Capita fanboi-ism, but please try to consider my points:

 

1) The overwhelming majority of posts on this subject (by very knowledgable and skilled members whom judgement I trust) call for an msi

2) Read further up the thread to where I posted Phil Neal's comments about how he was convinced that an msi was the way to go and called for volunteers for an msi based deployment system (dropped with no explanation - c'mom Capita gives us the technical explanation and we can shut up.... *silence*)

3) The issues raised are non issues.

4) Nothing Capita does surprises me.

 

/sparkeh out

Edited February 4, 2013 by sparkeh

[synaesthesia]

4) Nothing Capita does surprises me.

 

They gave me a pay rise once. I fell over.

[matt40k]

Would you post the technicial reason if were meant with a brick wall of ignorance to the larger picture? Or would you just stay silent?

 

I think people on here, technical as they are, are silo'd - they're thinking about themselves and their environments - not about the other 20,000 environments or the layers above. I guess it came down to technical people can spend 5 mins wrapping it into a MSI vs some other larger issue. Personally SOLUS does what psydii said it should do. Only he's missed bits out and some bits are easier then others.

 

It doesn't require a Windows Server - it can run on a peer-to-peer, most primaries have a few admin machines and it's pointless getting a expensive server if you don't have to. It can auto-download to the school server. It can auto-download to the client, prior to installing it - rather then MSI (as I understand it) - so you don't get a 300MB hit when all the machines come online at once. It doesn't require any work if you do it right - you click click, deploy, enter a time, you don't need to check the db upgrade, then add the msi package to your deployment folder, then assign it via gpo. You can have a simple report - I know MSI have reporting, but it's not that simple (last time I looked) without getting ££ add-on that brings the data into one place, it also gives you basic system info - the MS way is to use SCCM\SMS. It also gives reporting back too, so the LA\support team and Capita are aware that you have completed the upgrade, or if it failed. So in a managed environment, you can be proactive. I think the lack of understand makes them silent so all we get is some diluted response from some PR guy who knows nothing about the subject area - no offensive Phil - at makes them seem, well dumb. It made my job of actually getting in contact with someone who knew what they were talking about hard and even harder to get them to understand that I wasn't having a go and that when I had an idea, they actually listened and didn't just fob it off.

 

Anyway, what do I know, being "Capita fanboi" - I only managed to get them to listen and do my CR's.

@synaesthesia - Lies!! they don't give pay rises - did you have photos of Phil doing something... "interesting"