tmcd35 Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Spent the day, again, yesterday getting my head around MS licensing and finally got a couple of PO's fired up the chain of command. Just saw this thread this morning: http://www.edugeek.net/forums/enterprise-software/107492-sccm-2012-scup-2011-wsus-adobe-flash-catalog.html#post920902 - and it got me thinking. I know I want/need to get to grips with System Center, and sooner rather than later, but I'm actually completely lost at where the best place to start is? Here's what I want to implement: Replace our WDS with SCCM, and that thread made me want SCUP as well Replace MSI role out with APP-V Replace AVG with SC Endpoint Replace Yosemite Backup with DPM Introduce SCVMM to manage our network. We have three host servers currently in the process of being upgraded to Windows 2012 DataCenter and Hyper-V v3. Each server is barely half filed with VM's. So we have plenty of space and licensing. I have a 1 VM : 1 Service policy, so we have nigh on 30 virtual servers now. The way I see it, each of the SC components should have their own virtual server? But, I know that the components are all inter-related - and I assume work together in the SC framework? So where to start? How would you implement this set up?
shadowx Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 How to start? Get the SCCM disks and shred them. It's a lot quicker than trying to set SCCM up and get it working. In fact, erasing the CD literally bit by single bit with a small magnetic needle would be quicker than trying to get SCCM do what it SHOULD do. Once you've done that get a proper system or even just install Impero on all your machines and deploy applications that way. In all honesty, from our experience SCCM is seriously not worth the hassle. We came from a netware solution which worked virtually flawlessly to an SCCM system which eveyr now and then throws a wobbly and borks the PXE stopping working machines from booting. It takes literally hours to install flash player to a handful of machine (and I am talking single digit number of machines here). If the server goes off, EG power cut (despite UPS) or server maintenance it very rarely starts up correctly and requires "fixing". The process of making and deploying an image is so convoluted it's not even funny anymore. It's reports page, where it tells you what machines are installing etc..., is so useless it's faster and more reliable just to walk around the school and look at the screens. I could go on... Seriously, if you have the time, get some demos of other stuff and try them out first.
free780 Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 That's funny we are testing and it seems pretty good apart from the client being a bit slow.
alan-d Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 How to start? Get the SCCM disks and shred them. It's a lot quicker than trying to set SCCM up and get it working. In fact, erasing the CD literally bit by single bit with a small magnetic needle would be quicker than trying to get SCCM do what it SHOULD do. Once you've done that get a proper system or even just install Impero on all your machines and deploy applications that way. In all honesty, from our experience SCCM is seriously not worth the hassle. We came from a netware solution which worked virtually flawlessly to an SCCM system which eveyr now and then throws a wobbly and borks the PXE stopping working machines from booting. It takes literally hours to install flash player to a handful of machine (and I am talking single digit number of machines here). If the server goes off, EG power cut (despite UPS) or server maintenance it very rarely starts up correctly and requires "fixing". The process of making and deploying an image is so convoluted it's not even funny anymore. It's reports page, where it tells you what machines are installing etc..., is so useless it's faster and more reliable just to walk around the school and look at the screens. I could go on... Seriously, if you have the time, get some demos of other stuff and try them out first. Don't you like it then? I started to implement it last year but haven't got around to doing much past installing it. So any positive answers to the OP question would be of interest to me too 1
deano Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Don't you like it then? I started to implement it last year but haven't got around to doing much past installing it. So any positive answers to the OP question would be of interest to me too I use DPM and SCCM 2012 here. I have just started rolling out SCCM 2012 over our existing 2007 install, and got to say that the changes are quite dramatic. Things have got a lot easier and extremely useful in 2012 which I'm sure that a lot SCCM users can back me up. Yes, in 2007 things were boring and very difficult to get working, but that's all changed. The only issues I see at the moment from SCCM is SP1. A few bugs being created from it, but tell me a service pack that didn't bring bugs? SCCM is a beast, and you.do have to devote some of your life to get it working but well worth it. In terms of comparing to third party products, client cals are free as they are covered by my desktop licensing and server licensig costs £70 a year with SQL. This was for 2007 R3 at the time, I had my renewal yet. 1
AliG Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 When it works its the "DOGS" but when its broken its a "PITA" 3x times its broken in the last year and each time it took days if not weeks to fix. Microsoft update in december last broke it so we started again from scratch.
localzuk Posted January 24, 2013 Posted January 24, 2013 Start with SCCM. Get your updates working via it, then move on to SCEP. You can shift application installation to it too, and machine imaging. Don't know why someone would say use Impero instead - they have nearly no overlap in functionality. SCCM is an amazing piece of kit, if you put the effort in and set it up right. Note: It takes effort to set up, but once its up, it just runs. And it is a pain to fix when things go wrong, but the logs are endlessly informative. 4
tmcd35 Posted January 25, 2013 Author Posted January 25, 2013 How inter-related are the SC products, or is it just a product line with a common marketing name? Would it be best to have one SQL server for all SC products, or give each their own DB? What about control, is there a single System Center management interface/mmc plugin that covers all components or are they each managed separately? SCEP's Endpoint, right? I take it the suggestion is set up SCCM first and then use that to role out SCEP to the clients? Can I role out software to machines that have not been imaged by SCCM - I'd assume I could but just wondered if management of a machine was some how related to its imaging? I know I'm going to quickly find out a lot of these answers as I start installing the products, but I think a heads up and hearing others experiences is going to help big time. Our fist 2012 host was set up yesterday so I should be able to start building SC VM's by the end of the day - exciting stuff!
localzuk Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 Most of it is just a common name. There is some inter-linking, but most of the packages work independently of each other. For a school sized system, often you could install the lot on a single machine, with a single install of SQL. I think that's down to your own personal choice though. There are individual consoles for each program. SCEP is endpoint, yes. As you say, you set up SCCM, get it all working, and then deploying SCEP is a couple of clicks basically. Very easy to get running once you've got the general functionality of SCCM up and running. You can roll out software to machines that haven't been imaged by SCCM - you just have to have the SCCM client on them. Part of setting up SCCM is choosing how you want to deploy the client. You can make it an automatic push installation (so, when a new machine appears in your AD, it auto-installs), or you can push via windows update. http://windows-noob.com is an excellent resource to work with. 2
Tsonga Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 I am also currently learning SCCM, following the windows noob guides, part one is here: using System Center 2012 Configuration Manager - Part 1. Installation - CAS - Configuration Manager 2012 - www.windows-noob.com HIGHLY rate them! Edit: Lolcalzuk, you beat me to it, quick question for you, is all of your setup server 2012? 1
tmcd35 Posted January 25, 2013 Author Posted January 25, 2013 Thanks @localzuk, just the sort of info I need. Have to admit, since AV is a priority I'd have probably tried setting them up the other way around.
localzuk Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 Thanks @localzuk, just the sort of info I need. Have to admit, since AV is a priority I'd have probably tried setting them up the other way around. You can if you want to, but I found it more beneficial to just get the infrastructure right first - SCEP definition updates are installed via the Software Update Point role anyway. So in a way, you set them up at the same time.
tmcd35 Posted January 25, 2013 Author Posted January 25, 2013 I found it more beneficial to just get the infrastructure right first That was pretty much the reason for the OP. I want to make sure I have the infrastructure right in my head before I dive in to this.
sonofsanta Posted January 25, 2013 Posted January 25, 2013 SCCM is the place to start, I'd say - you need it to manage SCEP properly anyway, and you can always push EP out as your first job once SCCM is installed. Personally we don't use the PXE stuff anyway - we already had a Fog server in place that was working wonders, so saw no point in reinventing the wheel here. SCCM is used for EP, Windows Updates & Software Deployment. We push the client out via Windows Update - GPO sets the SCCM server to be the update server, client gets pushed out as the first update, and after that the SCCM client deals with it all (not the usual WU client). I run SCVMM as well, I did install SCOM but never actually used it. SCOM and SCDPM can't live on one server, one thing to be aware of. And yes, it's an effort and a learning curve to set up - it'll take a couple of weeks of experimentation - but since ours has been set up I've not had any problems with it, except for my own ignorance. Wouldn't be without it now. 1
shadowx Posted January 28, 2013 Posted January 28, 2013 Don't know why someone would say use Impero instead - they have nearly no overlap in functionality. Impero can deploy MSI's. SCCM can too (Well, so they say). Impero is infinitely faster and more reliable, although more suited to single deployments EG if flash breaks and needs a re-install. We are on SCCM 2007, perhaps 12 is better. But 2007 is not worth the bandwith to download it let alone get it working
sonofsanta Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Impero can deploy MSI's. SCCM can too (Well, so they say). Impero is infinitely faster and more reliable, although more suited to single deployments EG if flash breaks and needs a re-install. We are on SCCM 2007, perhaps 12 is better. But 2007 is not worth the bandwith to download it let alone get it working 2012 works with MSIs very well, it was one of the new features - they are classed as Applicatons, separate from Packages, and have supersedence etc. available.
synaesthesia Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 SCCM's handling of package deployment is nothing short of excellent. It doesn't have the "immediate" effect you see from Impero or RM systems for instance, but it's reliable and far more flexible; i.e. Impero won't keep MSI's installed on certain machines, it won't reinstall if a machine is rebuilt or loses an installation, it can install per user or per system, to maintenance windows and much much more. We use a successful combination of both - all permanent software with one exception (Solidworks!) pushes out through SCCM 2012 and anything tiny (for instance little fixes) get pushed out to relevant machines via Impero. Different targets really.
Theblacksheep Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 We came from a netware solution which worked virtually flawlessly to an SCCM system which eveyr now and then throws a wobbly and borks the PXE stopping working machines from booting. It takes literally hours to install flash player to a handful of machine (and I am talking single digit number of machines here). If the server goes off, EG power cut (despite UPS) or server maintenance it very rarely starts up correctly and requires "fixing". The process of making and deploying an image is so convoluted it's not even funny anymore. It's reports page, where it tells you what machines are installing etc..., is so useless it's faster and more reliable just to walk around the school and look at the screens. I could go on... I've installed and setup 2007 before moving to 2012. I can understand that you might be annoyed with 2007, it has its quirks. 2012 is much better. PXE working fine. Software installs working fine. Updates, AV... I could go on. Complete OS builds are done within about 45 mins, done the 30 pc library in 1 hour on Monday, zero touch. We had 60% of teacher PCs updated with SIMS (using SCCM) before the school even started, so mandatory installs are quick. We're down to 1 task sequence for our latest curricular builds, with variation of software based on PC name and hardware types. It takes time to get working but long term it'll make your life very, very easy. 2012 is a great piece of kit when working right.
sonofsanta Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 It takes time to get working but long term it'll make your life very, very easy. 2012 is a great piece of kit when working right. Amen brother, preach it!
Theblacksheep Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 all permanent software with one exception (Solidworks!) pushes out through SCCM 2012 .... snap!
TheScarfedOne Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Simples, single Task sequence for our main machines. Only have different ones for laptops which do bit locker related stuff. Then there are AD groups which are tied into collections which fire of other task sequences. Agreed, set up right it is a genius piece of kit. You do need to invest the time in setting up a collection and TS structure.
flyinghaggis Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 (edited) How to start? Get the SCCM disks and shred them. It's a lot quicker than trying to set SCCM up and get it working. In fact, erasing the CD literally bit by single bit with a small magnetic needle would be quicker than trying to get SCCM do what it SHOULD do. +1 TBH. When SCCM works it's quite nifty but it always seems to find a new and exciting way to break. As others have said when it does break the error messages are so cryptic and the event logs so hard to track down that it's often takes days to remedy. If anything that fact alone means I'd be tempted to stick with the more basic deployment methods simply because they appear to be more reliable. Admittedly we're using SCCM 2007 so it may be that 2012 is improved. The thought of trying to upgrade it sends a shiver down my spine though.... Edited January 30, 2013 by flyinghaggis
sparkeh Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 Admittedly we're using SCCM 2007 so it may be that 2012 is improved. The thought of trying to upgrade it sends a shiver down my spine though.... You can't upgrade in place, but can do it side-by-side. Nice guide: Migrate from SCCM 2007 to SCCM 2012 Part 1 | Nico's System Center Blog 1
Jamo Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 I can recommend SCCM for application deployment, I originally found 2007 to be a bit annoying for PXE booting as the handling of 'unknown' clients is an absolute dogs dinner. We have SCCM set up just for app deployment atm, using MDT for the station imaging as its far more reliable for us currently. I'm sure 2012 has some good things with PXE though, its a huge improvement over 2007.
Theblacksheep Posted January 30, 2013 Posted January 30, 2013 You can't upgrade in place, but can do it side-by-side. Nice guide: Migrate from SCCM 2007 to SCCM 2012 Part 1 | Nico's System Center Blog I hardly migrated anything (collections and packages) and recreated most of the environment to make sure it was both clean and streamlined. Pretty simple migration TBH.
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