Islam and depictions of Muhammad

[witch]

I agree with you. in many country's around the world the Christians are put to death just for being Christians still in this day and age without antagonizing anyone no court no jury just executed.

.

Evidence?

[localzuk]

Guilt by association? Isn't that another accusation being levelled at protesters who are attacking symbols of western power because they are guilty by association? Surely, we can stick to judging people by their own actions and refrain from tarring them with acts committed by others.

 

I did write a long reply to this, but then lost it, so I'll try again. Human rights are qualified usually, freedom of expression and freedom of association are both balanced by a need to prevent people doing things like shouting 'bomb' in a cinema, and people don't have a right to associate with terrorists...

 

So, as prior protests on this matter, by people with the same beliefs as this set of protesters have lead to violence and deaths, then new protests come under increased scrutiny, and increased restrictions. That's the way of the law, and the way of having both rights and responsibilities.

 

"so why protest there? No other reason than an excuse to start trouble IMO." - my post was aimed at the "no other reason".

 

And I agree with that poster. The protests are based entirely on flawed thinking. They are committing idolatry by their own religious texts, they are protesting in weird places (Birmingham? what relevance has that got to a film made by one American loon?), their religious texts don't apply to non-believers, so why should non-believers pay any attention to it?

 

So, the reasons do come down to them seeming to want to cause trouble. Are we not entitled to our own opinion, or do the freedom of speech rights not apply to us?

[januttall]

Evidence?

How much evidence do you want.

Shocking Figures Reveal 105,000 Christians Martyred Each Year

Persecution.com

https://barnabasfund.org/UK/News/News-analysis/

A Christian martyr every 5 minutes: The Church of England Newspaper, June 17, 2011 p 1. « Conger

there are a lot more sites available if you want me to link to them.

Just Because its not reported in our media it dose not mean it 's not there.

 

ANY VIEWS OR OPINIONS ON EXTERNAL SITES I LINK TO ARE NOT MY OWN VIEWS OR OPINIONS!!

Edited September 24, 2012 by januttall

[Theblacksheep]

The straw doesn't break the camels back.

 

The 10,000 straws underneath it do.

 

The media in the west want us to think its all about a video. Its not.

[witch]

How much evidence do you want.

Shocking Figures Reveal 105,000 Christians Martyred Each Year

Persecution.com

https://barnabasfund.org/UK/News/News-analysis/

A Christian martyr every 5 minutes: The Church of England Newspaper, June 17, 2011 p 1. « Conger

there are a lot more sites available if you want me to link to them.

Just Because its not reported in our media it dose not mean it 's not there.

 

Your first and third examples are the same and whilst the article claims the number of "Christian Martyrs" it doesnt explain how they got to these numbers. People are certainly being killed in civil wars, quite possibly because of the group they belong to, but I dispute that makes them a "Christian Martyr". During the civil war in Yugoslavia, Croats and Serbs, both ostensibly Christian, were killing each other - so surely that means there were Christian Martyrs on BOTH sides??? Christians killing Christians?

I think the use of the word 'Martyr' is sensationalist and unnecessary.

[januttall]

there are people in Egypt and siria, Iraq, china etc and all over the globe being killed just for being christian. not by other Christians. by governments and other faiths. give me time and i will give you more links. im suposed to be working not sending links to news story's.

 

[LINK REMOVED] just one more of many

 

though sadly if you don't believe me it dose not matter how much evidence i provide you will always argue the opposite. (don't live blind folded to or by events you will miss something important and your view though important will be obscured )

 

and very often our media misrepresents things or neglects to tell us everything

 

ANY VIEWS OR OPINIONS ON EXTERNAL SITES I LINK TO ARE NOT MY OWN VIEWS OR OPINIONS!!

Edited September 24, 2012 by januttall
CONTENT ON EXTERNAL LINK NOT CHECKED IN ADVANCE OF POSTING

[LosOjos]

there are people in Egypt and siria, Iraq, china etc and all over the globe being killed just for being christian. not by other Christians. by governments and other faiths. give me time and i will give you more links. im suposed to be working not sending links to news story's.

 

Persecution of Christians | Persecuted Churches - UK and Worldwide just one more of many

 

though sadly if you don't believe me it dose not matter how much evidence i provide you will always argue the opposite. (don't live blind folded to or by events you will miss something important and your view though important will be obscured )

 

It's also very hard to take seriously a website which, on it's opening page, contains the line:

 

THE VIDEO BELOW SHOWS ISLAM IN ITS TRUE LIGHT! (Courtesy: The Martyrs' Cry). Please be patient when downloading.

 

I agree with you that you can't walk around blind folded to the truth and I firmly believe that the media in every country is controlled so that we only hear what they want us to hear, but that last website you linked to stinks of religious hatred.

[witch]

there are people in Egypt and siria, Iraq, china etc and all over the globe being killed just for being christian. not by other Christians. by governments and other faiths. give me time and i will give you more links. im suposed to be working not sending links to news story's.

 

Persecution of Christians | Persecuted Churches - UK and Worldwide just one more of many

I don't dispute that Christians are being killed by other faiths but there is often more than just religion involved - would like to see numbers of people killed as it were cold, just for being Christian - with no wars etc involved.

I didnt actually say I didnt believe you -neither was I arguing the opposite to what you were saying - you do not need to be quite so defensive and a little insulting. Especially given that it was me that earlier in this thread mentioned other views not being reported.

I dont disbelieve you at all - it is just that the articles you specified are very 'sensationalist' in their outlook - much like the "muslims hate the west" articles. They also lump together all deaths of Christians without mentioning possible other reasons

[LiamH]

I agree with you that you can't walk around blind folded to the truth and I firmly believe that the media in every country is controlled so that we only hear what they want us to hear, but that last website you linked to stinks of religious hatred.

 

Ah the beauty of the internet, if you need a reference for your claim that polkadotted elephants are getting oppressed by the Russian federation of Umpa Lumpa impersonators, there's probably a website for that, if not make one!

[localzuk]

The media in the west want us to think its all about a video. Its not.

 

What is it about then?

[LosOjos]

Ah the beauty of the internet, if you need a reference for your claim that polkadotted elephants are getting oppressed by the Russian federation of Umpa Lumpa impersonators, there's probably a website for that, if not make one!

 

Exactly! The problem seems to lie in that people feel a need to believe in an absolute source, when it's actually extremely rare to find a truly subjective report and even then it's usually best to read various sources from both sides and understand that the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

[januttall]

It's also very hard to take seriously a website which, on it's opening page, contains the line:

 

 

 

I agree with you that you can't walk around blind folded to the truth and I firmly believe that the media in every country is controlled so that we only hear what they want us to hear, but that last website you linked to stinks of religious hatred.

I DIDNT NOTACE THIS! i just quickly serched as my boss was watching me3

 

and im sorry witch i was feeling a little rushed to provide evidence. and i wasent speaking to you when i posted that it was just a general comment.

 

 

ANY VIEWS OR OPINIONS ON EXTERNAL SITES I LINK TO ARE NOT MY OWN VIEWS OR OPINIONS!!

Edited September 24, 2012 by januttall

[witch]

@januttall Please watch that video- it is appalling in its breadth of religious hatred

I do believe that Christians are being targeted around the world - but to excuse the Christian Crusades on the basis that they were a long time ago is naive to say the least.

And to almost state that all muslims are terrorists is just beyond belief

To make a "thing' about Muslims believing that they are the only way to God - well, that is what Catholics believe too - they are the "one true faith".

As always though, I would point to the actuall religious texts - have you read the Qu'ran?

Yes, religious war is allowed but no muslim should kill women or children - ever.

[X-13]

Yes, religious war is allowed but no muslim should kill women or children - ever.

 

Christianity has something similar, I think. But, they can kill boys. [Women and girls are kept for reasons I'm not getting in to.]

 

 

That's in the Old Testiment though, so I don't think many still follow that.

[Guest Guest]

[MENTION=28593]to excuse the Christian Crusades on the basis that they were a long time ago is naive to say the least.

 

Totally agree. I absolute hate Germans the Nazi scum... and the French... and the Scots...

 

 

Time heals all. We fought the Germans a relatively short time ago but my opinion of someone who hates Germans based on a war which was over before they were even born... well lets just say they don't come high on my Christmas card list. Why is religion any different, or do you still hate Germans/Scots/anyone we have had a conflict with?

 

Yes learn from the past, but my opinion is anything done (certainly 500 years ago) in the past should stay in the past.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Guest

[LosOjos]

Totally agree. I absolute hate Germans the Nazi scum... and the French... and the Scots...

 

What is it with people around here?!

 

Clearly, @witch meant that we should not excuse the Crusades just because they happened so long ago, just as we should not excuse the Nazis, what she definitely did not say was we should hate all Christians for what happened! (as is the comparison you're apparently making with the Nazis/Gemrans)

[LiamH]

What is it with people around here?!

 

Clearly, @witch meant that we should not excuse the Crusades just because they happened so long ago, just as we should not excuse the Nazis, what she definitely did not say was we should hate all Christians for what happened! (as is the comparison you're apparently making with the Nazis/Gemrans)

 

I think his comment was laced with sarcasm to be fair.

[LosOjos]

I think his comment was laced with sarcasm to be fair.

 

I understand the sarcasm, but the implication was that @witch was suggesting we should hate Christians for the Crusades, at least that's how it looked to me, @j17sparky correct me if I'm wrong...

 

EDIT I suppose I should add that if that is indeed what witch meant (which I seriously doubt!) then I disagree

Edited September 24, 2012 by LosOjos

[Guest Guest]

I understand the sarcasm, but the implication was that @witch was suggesting we should hate Christians for the Crusades, at least that's how it looked to me, @j17sparky correct me if I'm wrong...

 

No, basically what relevance does the crusades have on today? To me Witch's comment reads "it doesn't matter that the crusades happened years ago, we should remember what happened [and let it influence today]", which I think is ridiculous. "Because it happened a long time ago" is a perfect "excuse". A lot of unsavoury things happened in the past, we learn from that but certainly don't hold their ancestors actions against them. Slavery happened a long time ago but if non-white people remember that for the next 500 year what chance does this world have of ever getting rid of racism.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Guest

[LosOjos]

No, basically what relevance does the crusades have on today? To me Witch's comment reads "it doesn't matter that the crusades happened years ago, we should remember what happened [and let it influence today]", which I think is ridiculous. "Because it happened a long time ago" is a perfect "excuse". Slavery happened a long time ago but if non-white people remember that for the next 500 year what chance does this world have of ever getting rid of racism.

 

I understand what you're saying, but witch was talking about a video posted earlier, what she said was in context of the content of that video/website

[LiamH]

No, basically what relevance does the crusades have on today? To me Witch's comment reads "it doesn't matter that the crusades happened years ago, we should remember what happened [and let it influence today]", which I think is ridiculous. "Because it happened a long time ago" is a perfect "excuse". A lot of unsavoury things happened in the past, we learn from that but certainly don't hold their ancestors actions against them. Slavery happened a long time ago but if non-white people remember that for the next 500 year what chance does this world have of ever getting rid of racism.

 

I don't think it should be forgotten, it happened, it was a very dark time for Europe and Christianity, in the same way that people wont change if we don't forget about it we need to learn from our past to ensure it doesn't happen again.

 

But modern Christians and Europeans shouldn't be penalized for it now, just like Germans even those alive during the war shouldn't all be penalized for what a few of their countrymen did.

 

Basically the way i see it is : forget? no, forgive* yes.

 

* i mean the decedents of, not the actual perpetrators

Edited September 24, 2012 by LiamH

[kernewek-sam]

Naturally everyone has differing opinions and views, is it time to close this thread as it's going round and round?

[witch]

No, basically what relevance does the crusades have on today? To me Witch's comment reads "it doesn't matter that the crusades happened years ago, we should remember what happened [and let it influence today]", which I think is ridiculous.

 

@j17sparky Missing my point -and in a particularly unfair way - nowhere did I say we should hate anyone for anything.

I was particularly relating it to the video which specifically mentions the crusades and pretty much says they were OK because they were a long time ago. Which of course, they werent.

On another point - the video mentions jizya as being a tax specifically on Christians, and whilst this is true, in paying it Christians are then exempt from military service and do not have to pay a tithe from their incomes as muslims do.

I am trying (and failing, obviously) to point out that all sides are biased and you can slant data anyway you want to show what you want it to show.

[Guest Guest]

@j17sparky Missing my point -and in a particularly unfair way - nowhere did I say we should hate anyone for anything.

I was particularly relating it to the video which specifically mentions the crusades and pretty much says they were OK because they were a long time ago. Which of course, they werent.

 

Does it? I've watched the video twice but didn't see that. At the beginning do you mean?

[witch]

It mentions the crusades, excuses them for being the Christians getting back stolen lands - which isnt always true - and then moves on quickly, mentioning that Christians dont do that sort of thing anymore. I interpreted that as being a sop to those who say "what about the crusades though" and an implication that the muslims are a bit backward or uncivilised as they are still persecuting other religions. (course Christians never do that..dont mention the war)

Still annoyed about the hate thing though