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Posted
The student might also have failed because they did not follow the instructions. As much as we are giving them the skills to get into the workplace / be part of society, part of that is that should you get an assignment that says "do X using Y" and you instead do A using B (even if it gets the same results or is better) then this is a fail. Learning to follow instructions is a valid task ... learning to challenge instructions and formulate a better set is a different task.

 

Discuss.

 

There's a comment on the article from the student in question (or somebody purporting to be, anyway) - search the page for Josh Pickett - in which he addresses this and also the commenting your code issue. He basically says that he asked for the criteria, talked to the teacher about whether his ideas were acceptable, and put comments in the code but had to go back and add a load more.

 

Taken at face value, it seems he did everything right.

Posted
Were focussing a lot here on this being the IT teachers 'fault' for not understanding technology, or having experience as a software developer!?!

 

I think that this situation is often down to exam board assessment criteria - The ICT teachers can only set tasks that will meet the criterion laid out by the exam board, and as such the teachers will only be versed in those technologies. We've attempted to let students use modern technologies such as CMS to present e-portfolios, but the exam board wouldn't allow it. I'd guess that they wouldn't allow any custom written app by a student, no matter how revolutionary it may be; because most of the 'ict' course is judging the amount of multimedia they have in their presentation. I hope new GCSE programming courses will help address this.

 

That's the thing though, I've yet to see a set of assessment criteria that was so limited as to indicate exact pieces of technology that have to be used to fulfill a task. Using the presentation example, I've seen a bunch of curriculum documents and assessment documents on this, and each time they use generic terms referring to a presentation. They don't refer to PowerPoint. They don't refer to a specific way of doing it. What happens, like in the originally linked posting, is that the teacher determines that 'presentation' means 'powerpoint'.

 

An example - in my last school as part of the curriculum for year 7 or 8, the ICT teacher had to teach website design. So, I gave them Nvu. It ticked every box as to what the teacher had to teach, but after a couple of days it was determined that it wasn't good enough. I was overruled, even though no-one could give me a teaching and learning reason to buy a package, and I was made to purchase the Macromedia 8 suite for many thousands of pounds. The reason, I found out, was simply that that was what the teacher was used to!

 

It seems ridiculous to me that anyone can go into a classroom to teach something and not know everything they can about it. No other job would allow it! If I came into this job here saying 'yep, i can manage a network' and then turned around half a year later and said 'well, actually, i have no experience or knowledge of windows servers, and i'm not going to learn about them' then i'd be out on my ear!

 

Also, people are saying they wouldn't expect an IT teacher to know what the differences between Blu Ray/DVD/CD drives are? I would! They're teaching the subject. How can they teach a kid about those technologies if they know nothing about them? Ok, sure, I wouldn't expect them to know the exact technical details, but I'd expect them to know that each one uses a laser with a different wavelength/beam thickness etc... Why? Because those are the technologies in use in IT today. They are our portable media tools. They are used every day by the kids, and knowledge about them will aid them in life (eg. knowing a laser has to shine through the plastic tells them not to scratch the discs).

Posted
The student in that post learned one thing, always comment your code!

 

Ah, but there's the thing - no he didn't. He learnt to over-comment his code. Something which is pretty much as bad as no commenting. Being presented with 3400 lines of comments for 3400 lines of code would make a pro-coder scream in pain...

 

In uni, we got marked down if we put too many comments in our work.

Posted

It seems ridiculous to me that anyone can go into a classroom to teach something and not know everything they can about it. No other job would allow it! If I came into this job here saying 'yep, i can manage a network' and then turned around half a year later and said 'well, actually, i have no experience or knowledge of windows servers, and i'm not going to learn about them' then i'd be out on my ear!

 

But again, for an HE teacher, would you expect, as quoted earlier, them to be able to prepare a michelin star gourmet meal and cook cuisine from anywhere in the world because "they should know everything they can about it," or for a DT teacher to know how the hydraulic system on a nuclear submarine works?

It's unrealistic to expect a teacher of a subject to know every single thing about everything they teach.

By your example, if you apply for an IT job, then you know about every single OS, every kernel version of linux, every device driver on the planet, etc because it may one day be used?

 

You not being willing to learn is a different matter altogether and I agree to an extent with you, but again, if someone said you will do network task X 100 times and 99 times you do it this way and 1 times you do it the other way, you would not spend hours researching the other way when it is a 1 in 100 task. This is similar to the students, 99% will use powerpoint, so the teacher will be geared towards that, for one kid who uses PHP and a SQL DB backend, it's an exception (for now).

I'm not saying this is how it SHOULD be done, but I can definitely understand a teacher not learning how to code in VB/C#/PHP just in case one student one day might do a project in it

Posted
But again, for an HE teacher, would you expect, as quoted earlier, them to be able to prepare a michelin star gourmet meal and cook cuisine from anywhere in the world

 

But we aren't talking about everything, everything which is relevant to the course plus a bit more yes, imo. Given the instructions yes I would expect a HE teacher to be able to cook just about anything to a decent enough standard. Could the same be said about an IT teacher and HTML, which lets be right about it, is quite a standard part of IT?

 

Disclaimer: No I'm not saying they should know HTML off by heart, hell I don't know much, but I can write a basic web page from scratch in notepad which would be enough for GCSE IT.

Posted
But we aren't talking about everything, everything which is relevant to the course plus a bit more yes, imo. Given the instructions yes I would expect a HE teacher to be able to cook just about anything to a decent enough standard. Could the same be said about an IT teacher and HTML, which lets be right about it, is quite a standard part of IT?

 

Disclaimer: No I'm not saying they should know HTML off by heart, hell I don't know much, but I can write a basic web page from scratch in notepad which would be enough for GCSE IT.

 

Granted, but where does it stop? If it is learning everything for a course, and the course says do a presentation, said teacher learns a bit of HTML then a kid does a presentation using javascript. So he learns that and the next year a kid does a presentation using a C# program and various dll's.

As I said, I'm not disagreeing, it would be nice to have an IT teacher who knows certain things more than just how to teach office, but to expect it as a standard is a bit off at the moment.

Posted
But again, for an HE teacher, would you expect, as quoted earlier, them to be able to prepare a michelin star gourmet meal and cook cuisine from anywhere in the world because "they should know everything they can about it," or for a DT teacher to know how the hydraulic system on a nuclear submarine works?

It's unrealistic to expect a teacher of a subject to know every single thing about everything they teach.

By your example, if you apply for an IT job, then you know about every single OS, every kernel version of linux, every device driver on the planet, etc because it may one day be used?

 

You not being willing to learn is a different matter altogether and I agree to an extent with you, but again, if someone said you will do network task X 100 times and 99 times you do it this way and 1 times you do it the other way, you would not spend hours researching the other way when it is a 1 in 100 task. This is similar to the students, 99% will use powerpoint, so the teacher will be geared towards that, for one kid who uses PHP and a SQL DB backend, it's an exception (for now).

I'm not saying this is how it SHOULD be done, but I can definitely understand a teacher not learning how to code in VB/C#/PHP just in case one student one day might do a project in it

 

No, I wouldn't expect them to know every Michelin star meal and cook it all - but they are cooking teachers, so they should be able to pick it up very quickly, and teach it. A more comparable example would be them not knowing how to use a potato masher. I don't expect an IT teacher to know how a SAN works, or how iSCSI works. They aren't every day tools, much like cuisine from all over the world isn't every day cooking, but if they were asked about it, I'd expect them to know how to find out about it and then learn the basics.

 

You can't compare a teaching job to an IT job either, as the 2 are very different. If I applied to be a DBA, I'd be expected to know pretty much everything about the DBMS that I was employed to use. As I work in a general IT management role, instead I am expected to be able to learn how to use all the technologies I work with, or if that isn't possible, know how to get someone in who does know about it.

 

A teacher is supposed to be providing education to every child in their class with the same level of commitment as every other one. Basically what you're saying is that you understand when they can't be bothered to learn to do their best for that 1% who are far ahead the rest? Seems like allowing mediocrity in a classroom to me!

Posted
You can't compare a teaching job to an IT job either, as the 2 are very different.

 

No other job would allow it! If I came into this job here saying 'yep, i can manage a network' and then turned around half a year later and said 'well, actually, i have no experience or knowledge of windows servers, and i'm not going to learn about them' then i'd be out on my ear!

 

erm, you just did. yes, i know you'll say you weren't comparing them and before its said, i didnt compare the two either, i merely used a task performed 100 times as an example of two differing jobs.

 

my point is still that where does it end? so you wouldn't expect an IT teacher to know about a SAN, fair enough, but you'd expect him to know the difference between a DVD and bluray. ok, so he goes and googles it, has that made him a better teacher?

 

oh and please don't start with the "what you are saying is". i did not say mediocrity is fine, please stop trying to twist my words. so child x goes to the teacher and says ive done my coursework in c#. great, the teacher has no idea how to understand it. now how long does it take the teacher on top of all the other stuff they have to do (because this isn't a teacher bashing thread, i know teachers do have other tasks) to learn c# to a level he can understand that one piece of coursework? lets say he does it, and now knows enough about c# to mark it. next year a student says ive done it in php. should he then learn php, and every other variation of coding out there on the offchance a student might use it?

 

wouldn't you rather the teacher said "thats great, i think we should get you on a course outside of here where you can really progress" not just "well ive googled what c# is and that looks quite good, you get a B". we shouldn't be expecting an IT teacher to be a master of all things IT related in the field. lets face it, if we were masters of general IT this site wouldn't exist.

 

the closest thing i can think of is that a driving instructor is there to teach you how to drive. they know the laws of the road, how to operate a car and how to teach you in those respects. it is safe to assume not all of them know what each and every part under the bonnet does, or even have a working knowledge of exactly how an engine works. so why should an IT teacher know off by heart what every single component in a PC does and how to replace them?

again, i am not saying i agree that IT teachers know very little of IT, but i also think its unfair to expect them to be wildly knowledgeable in it either when for the majority part their job doesn't warrant it.

Posted (edited)
As I said, I'm not disagreeing, it would be nice to have an IT teacher who knows certain things more than just how to teach office, but to expect it as a standard is a bit off at the moment.

 

i also think its unfair to expect them to be wildly knowledgeable in it either when for the majority part their job doesn't warrant it.

 

And that is exactly why we are no longer world leaders in anything.

 

In the last few months we have had numerous posts on how we need a highly educated workforce to compete in this world; cost of uni going up, less chances for the next generation, that kind of thing. How can we get there by keeping the status quo?

 

IMO there should only be a very low percentage of kids at GCSE who surpass their teachers in any given subject, but in IT that figure is probably (approaching) a majority. How many kids when you were at school knew* more about maths than the maths teacher? Science, history, just about anything except IT.

 

*Knew as in knowledge, not ability.

Edited by Guest
Posted
I disagree and agree, I believe a ICT Teacher should have a better understanding of IT then other "non ICT" people shall we call them the Normal User? ICT Staff should understand more.

 

I agree with you totally here. How many teachers do not know their stuff in their subjects? I know a Media teacher who cannot video edit - but otherwise in my school the teachers know what their subject demands. I have one non-specialist ICT Teacher. She contributes a lot to the department. I help her with ICT (as is my job) and she brings new teaching ideas to the table from her 'main' subject.

 

Our previous head of ICT actually understood a lot, then he was the head of IT Support as well and dealt with everything, if he didnt deal with it you could bet that he was involved when it came to IT accross the college. Since he retired IT Support has grown - it needed to grow due ot the growth of IT Accross the school. We no longer have really anything to do with ICT Classes, we can no longer dedicate our time to making sure the ICT Suites are clean and tidy and working 100% and fix every issue with the PCs. Mainly because we have ICT suites throughout the college and even PE have 4 suites and time table lessons in additional 2 (non ICT Dept ones). If just one of our servers went down out of 10 you can place a huge bet on how many people will complain.

 

In the old days Heads of ICT used to do everything. Then the Unions got involved and created that list of ~23 things teachers should not be doing. This means extra people had to be employed. In my school every member of the SMT has some sort of secretary doing their work. Exams Officer has an Exams Secretary and so on. Waste of money.

 

I still keep in with the ICT Support - often being second line. @rich_tech is our first line then I sometimes get involved if we need to discuss issues. LEA Support is our third line. Very rare does it reach the LEA. We have everything covered. In all fairness @rich_tech works hard. I know he is currently VPN'ed in finishing off the library rebuild for tomorrow morning.

 

Personally I feel like schools are saving too much money by getting unqualified staff over qualified to save money - how bad is it that schools have to save money? We recently suffered redundancies as well and employed even younger (ex Students) as Teaching Assistances. Not forgetting the 15 PGCE Students and a couple of Volunteers (unpaid) who are doing more then just assisting teachers but are some times taking full classes on their own.

 

Yes yes yes - agree totally. Our school employs a lot of ex-pupils as LSA's.

 

I was approached by the head of ICT and she did ask if the students could do a questionaire on things they need to know about servers/networking and the questions she was talking about was core details. Like what is the main server, what does it do, what makes it "work". I did politely say if she wants to gather them all together for me and forward the questions to me I will get back as soon as I can.

Does that mean the staff member should of known those answers or instead should that staff member prepared it all for me so I could answer them easier directly with her and then she can pass it to the students? or should I be answering them directly with the students?

 

Help out if you can. I say this a lot on Edugeek but we are all there to benefit the pupils - if this means helping a fellow member of staff then make it so - but make sure you are given time back to continue your normal duties. If she didn't know the answers then show her.

 

Gareth

Posted
Sadly, for me, it wasn't until college that lecturers would actually say "Wow, that's really cool - how did you do that?". I still have the graded exam that I did while there - one section was a mock proposal from an IT company to a customer. I just used what I knew, and made it fit with the questions and went into epic detail. It was simply annotated with "Incredible." I'll never fault my college lecturers.

 

Unfortunately a lot of ICT Teachers are like that. They see their subject and possibly their integrity threatened by those who know more. I'm not sure of any other subject where this is the case. Maths is maths, history is history - people might have more knowledge but in general nothing changes.

 

ICT is different - new people, new ideas. I hate now knowing some things (which is why I come here). Threatened? Not really.

 

It is something I tell my student teachers - if you don't know find out. Read, read and read again. I'm suprised that a lot of ICT teachers do not read ICT/Computing based stuff.

 

Gareth

Posted
Although it is interesting that @hermand mentioned Uni, University lecturers get paid a lot to actually spot the difference between an impressive piece of work done differently? they are also expected to "know their stuff". I could be mistaken but that's how I feel.

 

I'm not sure the pay is that good, but what they do get is a lot more free time to mark and prepare lectures (from what I know of my mates that are Uni lecturers). The main difference is that some have to prepare research papers every year as part of their contract.

 

Gareth

Posted
Am I right in believing that in all subjects except IT, you have to be educated to degree level in that subject to teach it at GCSE?

 

I'm not sure. I always thought it was to A-Level.

 

Gareth

Posted
I know a Media teacher who cannot video edit

 

Is this because they don't understand the editing process (by that I mean the grammar of video/TV, narrative structure, cutaways etc) or aren't familiar enough with the particular editing software that's used at your place?

 

In many respects being able to teach the theory via a paper edit is more valuable than being able to teach the ins and outs of a particular proprietry application IMO. I say that as somebody who did media GCSE and GNVQ at a time when you learned to edit audio tape with a razor blade (or mini disc if you were lucky) and video with two VHS machines. You had to think about what you were recording because you couldn't "fix it in the edit", and you had to think about what you were doing when editing as there's no undo button. All of the principles I learned with the old-skool tech have stood me in good stead for using computer based editing.

Posted
erm, you just did. yes, i know you'll say you weren't comparing them and before its said, i didnt compare the two either, i merely used a task performed 100 times as an example of two differing jobs.

 

my point is still that where does it end? so you wouldn't expect an IT teacher to know about a SAN, fair enough, but you'd expect him to know the difference between a DVD and bluray. ok, so he goes and googles it, has that made him a better teacher?

 

oh and please don't start with the "what you are saying is". i did not say mediocrity is fine, please stop trying to twist my words. so child x goes to the teacher and says ive done my coursework in c#. great, the teacher has no idea how to understand it. now how long does it take the teacher on top of all the other stuff they have to do (because this isn't a teacher bashing thread, i know teachers do have other tasks) to learn c# to a level he can understand that one piece of coursework? lets say he does it, and now knows enough about c# to mark it. next year a student says ive done it in php. should he then learn php, and every other variation of coding out there on the offchance a student might use it?

 

wouldn't you rather the teacher said "thats great, i think we should get you on a course outside of here where you can really progress" not just "well ive googled what c# is and that looks quite good, you get a B". we shouldn't be expecting an IT teacher to be a master of all things IT related in the field. lets face it, if we were masters of general IT this site wouldn't exist.

 

the closest thing i can think of is that a driving instructor is there to teach you how to drive. they know the laws of the road, how to operate a car and how to teach you in those respects. it is safe to assume not all of them know what each and every part under the bonnet does, or even have a working knowledge of exactly how an engine works. so why should an IT teacher know off by heart what every single component in a PC does and how to replace them?

again, i am not saying i agree that IT teachers know very little of IT, but i also think its unfair to expect them to be wildly knowledgeable in it either when for the majority part their job doesn't warrant it.

 

 

You are still saying that effectively a child who does something which the teacher knows nothing about should be penalised because of that lack of teacher knowledge. That 1 out of 100 is still a person. Someone who should get as much effort put into his education as the other 99. Without that effort, you end up with kids not making the effort because they know it'll be ignored.

 

And a teacher knowing some C# would mean they have the ability to pick up some PHP pretty quickly, or some Java etc... Knowing the basics of how to program, and how to look at API documentation would give the teacher enough skills to handle the examples you give.

 

I can program in c#, java, php, and a bit of python. But when someone gives me some code in VB.net? I can easily look through it and figure out what it does. Same with Ruby or c. That's because I know the basics of programming, not because I have to know each language in its entirety to be able to understand it.

 

If a driving instructor were required to do anything other than get people to pass a very strict set of instructions for a test, I'd agree with your example but as they don't, I don't. If they were teaching a mechanic course, and a new type of engine came out, which had a new component in it, I would expect them to learn about it and know about it, even if it were only in 1% of cars...

Posted
You are still saying that effectively a child who does something which the teacher knows nothing about should be penalised because of that lack of teacher knowledge.

 

No I didn't, but with the feeling of Deja Vu in this thread to other threads I'm not going to waste time carrying on trying to go over my reasoning.....

 

http://www.newcastlevip.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/duncan-babbatyne.jpg

  • Thanks 1
Posted
No I didn't, but with the feeling of Deja Vu in this thread to other threads I'm not going to waste time carrying on trying to go over my reasoning.....

 

Can you not see my point at all or something? What should a teacher be doing in your view with a child who does something like the kid in the OP? I think I've made my point pretty clearly, so I want to hear what your counter point is. You say 'send them on a course', but I've *never* heard of any school doing this for a child. Not to mention, how does it help them with their GCSE/A-Levels?

Posted
Can you not see my point at all or something? What should a teacher be doing in your view with a child who does something like the kid in the OP? I think I've made my point pretty clearly, so I want to hear what your counter point is. You say 'send them on a course', but I've *never* heard of any school doing this for a child. Not to mention, how does it help them with their GCSE/A-Levels?

 

Right, my final post here as it's getting tiring.

Yes, I can quite clearly see your point. If you bothered to read my posts you would see I said "I'm not saying that I agree with an ICT teacher not knowing a lot", that is me not only seeing but making your point earlier.

 

My counterpoint is that it would be nice for an ICT teacher to say "you coded in c#, that's awesome, lets look through it together and I'll mark it" but the reality is that won't happen. In the days where teachers are striking because they have too many "non teaching" tasks to do, do you think any teacher will willingly go on a programming course purely on the offchance 1 child out of the 600 they teach MIGHT use it?

You may not have heard of a child being recommended a course, I have....we've done that here. Is it wrong for me to expect a school to do more than just something within the confines of GCSE/A-Levels?

You asked how a course would help with their GCSEs. Well granted it may not help directly with them getting an A* in GCSE ICT, but let's face it, if you are coding in C# or whatever at GCSE then a course aimed at furthering your coding skills will help more for your personal development than getting a GCSE grade in a subject that most companies will know as an Office based subject at GCSE.

 

I'm not going to spend any more time going over it as I do agree and see both sides, hopefully you can at least see my reasoning for not swaying too far either side

Posted
Right, my final post here as it's getting tiring.

Yes, I can quite clearly see your point. If you bothered to read my posts you would see I said "I'm not saying that I agree with an ICT teacher not knowing a lot", that is me not only seeing but making your point earlier.

 

My counterpoint is that it would be nice for an ICT teacher to say "you coded in c#, that's awesome, lets look through it together and I'll mark it" but the reality is that won't happen. In the days where teachers are striking because they have too many "non teaching" tasks to do, do you think any teacher will willingly go on a programming course purely on the offchance 1 child out of the 600 they teach MIGHT use it?

You may not have heard of a child being recommended a course, I have....we've done that here. Is it wrong for me to expect a school to do more than just something within the confines of GCSE/A-Levels?

You asked how a course would help with their GCSEs. Well granted it may not help directly with them getting an A* in GCSE ICT, but let's face it, if you are coding in C# or whatever at GCSE then a course aimed at furthering your coding skills will help more for your personal development than getting a GCSE grade in a subject that most companies will know as an Office based subject at GCSE.

 

I'm not going to spend any more time going over it as I do agree and see both sides, hopefully you can at least see my reasoning for not swaying too far either side

 

I can see your reasoning, but the point I think most of us are making is that you are sticking to 'what happens now' as the reason to stick with 'what happens now'. Seems kind of like giving up before you even start to be honest.

 

What I'm saying is that what should be happening, regardless of how teachers get upset about having to do it. Part of the problem is the attitude that teachers won't accept changes in what is expected of them! Surely the desire is to the best for every kid?

 

You can say you're not going to spend time arguing it, but I don't understand why. A discussion forum is for exactly that, discussing and trying to figure out what the different viewpoints are and how to resolve the differences.

 

Then, another discussion would be the fact that the kids need their bank of GCSE/A-Level grades to get into courses at university. A random course outside that framework will not usually aid them with that, and at the moment, neither will an ICT A-Level.

Posted
My counterpoint is that it would be nice for an ICT teacher to say "you coded in c#, that's awesome, lets look through it together and I'll mark it" but the reality is that won't happen.

 

That right there is what I think should have happened and should be a process allowed for in the marking scheme. A teacher doesn't need to know any language inside out; if the student can sit down and clearly demonstrate through discussion and some annotation of the code that they understand the code they've written, does the teacher really need to?

Posted
You can say you're not going to spend time arguing it, but I don't understand why. A discussion forum is for exactly that, discussing and trying to figure out what the different viewpoints are and how to resolve the differences.

 

Quite simply, because although I agree with you, you are arguing against me. I agree with viewpoint A but can also understand viewpoint B (whether I agree with it or not). You appear to see viewpoint A and dismiss any attempt at reasoning from viewpoint B even from someone already agreeing with you.

That is why I do not wish to continue trying, I have laid out my stall, people can see my viewpoints and opinions, I don't feel the need to then argue them time and time again with the same points.

  • Thanks 1
Posted

I read a paper by a lecturer who reserved the top 10% of his marking scheme for students who did something he wasn't expecting. When students ask how to get a top mark he just says "surprise me".

 

Obviously in HE lecturers have a lot more freedom to experiment with marking schemes, and in an environment where 70% represents an A grade having something to push students to achieve something higher is a good thing.

Posted (edited)
Quite simply, because although I agree with you, you are arguing against me. I agree with viewpoint A but can also understand viewpoint B (whether I agree with it or not). You appear to see viewpoint A and dismiss any attempt at reasoning from viewpoint B even from someone already agreeing with you.

That is why I do not wish to continue trying, I have laid out my stall, people can see my viewpoints and opinions, I don't feel the need to then argue them time and time again with the same points.

 

Stating what is the status quo, and saying 'In the days where teachers are striking because they have too many "non teaching" tasks to do, do you think any teacher will willingly go on a programming course purely on the offchance 1 child out of the 600 they teach MIGHT use it?' doesn't forward the discussion though, it is, as I said, giving up.

 

I'm pleased that you disagree with that view point, but why state it? It'd be like me saying 'I have a job offer where I get £1m a year, but I'm not going to because I currently do my existing job'.

 

EDIT: ooh, I do seem to be upsetting people lately. More neg rep. Why not, I dunno, reply instead (or in addition to the rep, I don't mind)?

Edited by localzuk
Posted
Why do people all presume that music needs to get down and funky with music tech? .

 

Because otherwise how will the kids make bad dubstep remixes to post on youtube?

 

My god man, think of the children!

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