MP3's - the legalities

[wil0]

what im saying is that, yes kids shouldent download mp3s at school, but as far as mp3s are concerned, it may be illigal, but no one will ever catch you. .

 

I'm sorry but i just can't imagine myself writing that in my AUP to be approved by the Governors and Head. And i certainly wouldn't employ any technical staff that had that attitude.

 

TBH i think your attitude of blanket block and delete is obsered, and I wouldent consider employing some one with as little initiative as yourself.

Im not saying write "we wont get caught LOL the govenment are toolzzz, lets all download mp3s"

im just saying worring about the legalities of mp3s on your servers is pointless, and exactly because the copyright laws are a farce, no one will arrest you, kids learn through music, and some will be downloading speeches, samples and other things for educational purposes.

You should maybe focus your attention on deleting illigitamate mp3s and letting kids keep others for educational purposes, or say keep your mp3s in your my music folder, but limit that to 10mb. Its inevitable that kids will try and listen to mp3s or music on your network, set a blanket policy to delete all mp3files excluding the ones in my music, then limit that folder to 10mb.

 

Quite frankly I dont see downloading mp3s as stealing, just because only the big bands lose out, the ones who already have loads of money, sometimes dont even deserve the sale, most normal bands dont even make money from cds. these are proven facts. your average major band makes about 50p - £1 from a cd sale.

 

Smaller bands on indie labels make much more on a cd sale, and they dont get hurt by p2p because... Smaller bands stuff generally doesent get ripped. for example, i wanted to download a cd by a band called "mouthwash", however i could only get their 2001 album (after much searching), which isnt very good, and not their new release, so i went out and bought it.

 

Bands make money through merchandise, airplay and touring.

[localzuk]

TBH i think your attitude of blanket block and delete is obsered, and I wouldent consider employing some one with as little initiative as yourself.

Im not saying write "we wont get caught LOL the govenment are toolzzz, lets all download mp3s"

im just saying worring about the legalities of mp3s on your servers is pointless, and exactly because the copyright laws are a farce, no one will arrest you, kids learn through music, and some will be downloading speeches, samples and other things for educational purposes.

You should maybe focus your attention on deleting illigitamate mp3s and letting kids keep others for educational purposes, or say keep your mp3s in your my music folder, but limit that to 10mb. Its inevitable that kids will try and listen to mp3s or music on your network, set a blanket policy to delete all mp3files excluding the ones in my music, then limit that folder to 10mb.

 

How do your discern between legit and non-legit files? Listen to them all? Ask every person who has a file if it is legally allowed to be on the school's system? The situation is this - we have a lot of much more important things to do with our time than chase up licenses for using mp3 files. Taking a relaxed attitude to it would lead to the school breaking the law - which is unacceptable.

 

Quite frankly I dont see downloading mp3s as stealing, just because only the big bands lose out, the ones who already have loads of money, sometimes dont even deserve the sale, most normal bands dont even make money from cds. these are proven facts. your average major band makes about 50p - £1 from a cd sale.

 

It is not up to you to decide this - this is a legal requirement and we can moralise over it for as long as we want. We still have a legal requirement to deal with.

[contink]

im just saying worring about the legalities of mp3s on your servers is pointless, and exactly because the copyright laws are a farce, no one will arrest you,

All well and good but your impression of an ostrich doesn't relate to the real world.

 

Remember what happened when millions of college students adopted that attitude in the US and a small selection were visited by officials who promptly made their student loans the least of their problems. You can bet they figured the old "it'll never happen to me" thing applied.. it didn't.

 

Granted the system needs an overhaul but we live in the here and now and the ostrich approach has no bearing. Playing russian roulette with your job, your schools reputation and the law is just plain dumb..

[steele_uk]

It is not up to you to decide this - this is a legal requirement and we can moralise over it for as long as we want. We still have a legal requirement to deal with.

 

Thank you. That is what i should have replied with a while back.

 

We all have opinions as to what laws we thinks are good/bad whatever. I am after clarification of what the law is, not whether it is a good or bad.

[tosca925]

How do your discern between legit and non-legit files? Listen to them all? Ask every person who has a file if it is legally allowed to be on the school's system? The situation is this - we have a lot of much more important things to do with our time than chase up licenses for using mp3 files. Taking a relaxed attitude to it would lead to the school breaking the law - which is unacceptable.

 

Absolutely spot on, I ain't got time to check all the mp3's i find. I could employ a part time tech to do that and that certainly ain't gonna happen. If i did search through just one year group i would guarantee that over 98% of the mp3's would be illegal.

 

I know what i'd like to do to cover my back and thats doa complete blamnket delete but i need documantation to present to SLT before i can get approval.

[petectid]

Correct. We tell teachers to work from original CDs rather than MP3 if they are doing work with classes.

 

I know that here we pay a fee for showing DVDs, all titles of which are added to a form and sent with a payment, where I do not know as the finance manager deals with this. We can then display all the DVDs on the list in school. Would the same not apply to Audio CD Roms used by schools?

[enjay]

If i did search through just one year group i would guarantee that over 98% of the mp3's would be illegal.

Unfortunately, the other 2% are not only legal but part of some coursework they're currently working on. Delete at your peril...

[tosca925]

and your suggestion on how we differentiate this? :-)

[_Bat_]

I had two staff laptops in yesterday and found about 50 mp3s in a folder called 'bearshare' and several movies in a folder called 'bittorrents' on the first. All were deleted immediately and threatening messages left in a readme file in their place.

 

On the second I found a large amount of MP3s that had been downloaded, but others appeared to have been ripped from CDs legally via windows media player. Unsure of what to do, I left a message in the startup folder (where they can't miss it) asking them to sort out and delete the illegal content. If they don't do it soon, I'll just delete the lot anyway.

 

I'm going through the rest of the laptops soon and I'd make a guess and say I'll be deleting most MP3 files that I find, especailly if it is in a folder such as limewire "shared".

 

It's not the teachers doing it incidently... it's their children. However, for the first time I've decided to adopt a BOfH style approach to this because I think if I don't, it'll get out of hand.

 

Do you think I am wrong to just delete without warning? Maybe I'll back them up before deleting in future just in case (not for my own music collection, honestly ).

[localzuk]

On the second I found a large amount of MP3s that had been downloaded, but others appeared to have been ripped from CDs legally via windows media player. Unsure of what to do, I left a message in the startup folder (where they can't miss it) asking them to sort out and delete the illegal content. If they don't do it soon, I'll just delete the lot anyway.

 

That's the thing though - ripping from CD's isn't legal.

 

It's not the teachers doing it incidently... it's their children. However, for the first time I've decided to adopt a BOfH style approach to this because I think if I don't, it'll get out of hand.

 

But their kids shouldn't be using the computer should they?

 

Do you think I am wrong to just delete without warning? Maybe I'll back them up before deleting in future just in case (not for my own music collection, honestly ).

 

No, you are in the right. The laptop belongs to the school and as such you are The Law when it comes to their contents.

[tosca925]

So if they have lots of ripped mp3's on their school laptop (possibly illegal) could the school get into trouble for this or the indiviual, possibly abusing the use of a school laptop.?

[_Bat_]

So if they have lots of ripped mp3's on their school laptop (possibly illegal) could the school get into trouble for this or the indiviual, possibly abusing the use of a school laptop.?

 

As far as I am aware, the school gets fined and possibly worse happening to both me as the person responsible for the laptops and the person who downloaded it in the first place.

 

@localzuk

 

Are you sure it's not legal? Windows media player has a whole section dedicated to ripping CDs. Why do they allow this? What about MP3 players? Surely this requires you to rip music off CDs?

[localzuk]

I am 100% sure. Ripping music from cd's is not legal in the UK due to our outdated copyright laws. This has been confirmed to me by a couple of copyright lawyers. The only thing is that there have not been any prosecutions for doing it... But this isn't something a school should consider, we should just consider the actual law.

 

The only way music can be put on MP3 players, legally, in the UK is by downloading it from legal download services.

[_Bat_]

Okay, I'll bear that in mind. Thanks for the advice.

 

As for teachers children using the laptops, the head teacher is angry that this is happening. An AUP is being written which will hopefully put a stop to this. Some teachers (and their children) obviously become so used to having their laptop that they think it is theirs and not the schools.

 

In the AUP, it will state the consequences of anyone disobeying it. It will also make it clear what software/media is illegal etc.

 

However, even though we have no AUP at the moment, I am still going to delete any downloaded music/movies etc without prior warning as it breaks the law. The teachers have been made aware that laptops will be coming in for inspection in a rota each week so the sensible ones will hopefully get any illegal content removed before I get hold of the laptop. The really sensible ones won't have to worry anyway .

[chrbb]

still on a 'music' theme I'm constantly being asked by staff and the head to copy cd's, the cd is owned by the school but they want copies for other classes in the same yeargroup. I have pointed out it's illegal but that seems to fall on stony ground. (I have made copies of our assembly cd's and keep them in a safe place because the teacher in charge of them kept losing them)

[GrumbleDook]

Let's also bear in mind the ownership question. Jump forward in time a few years to the point where the outdated copyright laws have been revised to take MP3s into account. It is the teacher who owns the CD and therefore the rights to use the MP3, however it is the school which is hosting the MP3 and the school does not own the track so has no legal rights to the MP3.

 

Here's a curly one to throw in to the debate. Our A-Level Music students are required to rip entire tracks and extracts of tracks from CDs to accompany their dissertations - they must compare two recordings of the same piece of music, and the exam boards request the recordings on CD. I am assured by the Head of Music that this is done under a strict and very specific re-negotiation of the copyright laws by the exam boards so I am happy with this on the face of it, but it does mean that I can't run blanket sweeps across the network removing all MP3 files!

 

Ensure that these files in kept in very specific locations within home areas, or better still put them on a server that will stream them to students (actually using iTunes is possible for this!)

 

That way you are able to scan and not delete files that are needed, and not have lots of unnecessary copies of the files.

[Gatt]

With regards to the legallity of ripping music cd's I THINK it only legal to MP3 them if you have a legitimate, shop bought, CD - in which case you are then entitled to MP3 it to your PC/MP3 Player for your own personal use.

 

If, however youthen stick those MP3's on P2P or on a school PC (technically not yours) then thats a different matter entirely...

 

Most schools usually have some license (public entertainment??) that allows them to use music for education, and I think another one license is needed for using music during assemblies, etc....

[localzuk]

With regards to the legallity of ripping music cd's I THINK it only legal to MP3 them if you have a legitimate, shop bought, CD - in which case you are then entitled to MP3 it to your PC/MP3 Player for your own personal use.

 

That would still be illegal under the definition of the law, but as I said, there have not been any prosecutions for it. I won't go as far as to say 'and their won't be' but the CPS would, according to my source, likely not proceed with a case due to it not being in the public interest.

[enjay]

and your suggestion on how we differentiate this? :-)

Easy. Do they do A-Level Music?!

[enjay]

Ensure that these files in kept in very specific locations within home areas, or better still put them on a server that will stream them to students (actually using iTunes is possible for this!)

If we said "we will delete all MP3 files except those in a folder called 'I Need These MP3s', they would simply put all their MP3s - legal and otherwise - in that folder. Our users aren't stupid!

[GrumbleDook]

Correct. We tell teachers to work from original CDs rather than MP3 if they are doing work with classes.

 

I know that here we pay a fee for showing DVDs, all titles of which are added to a form and sent with a payment, where I do not know as the finance manager deals with this. We can then display all the DVDs on the list in school. Would the same not apply to Audio CD Roms used by schools?

 

Unfortunately not. The PVSL scheme (previously mentioned on the site) is an agreement reached on behalf on establishments with distribution houses purely for showing of DVDs / Video Cassettes. There is no similar agreement in place with Music Companies at this time. The closest you get is from things like Audio Networks, which many RBCs sign up to on behalf of their connected schools.

[GrumbleDook]

Ensure that these files in kept in very specific locations within home areas, or better still put them on a server that will stream them to students (actually using iTunes is possible for this!)

If we said "we will delete all MP3 files except those in a folder called 'I Need These MP3s', they would simply put all their MP3s - legal and otherwise - in that folder. Our users aren't stupid!

Look at the folder size of these folders ... I think DIRSTAT is the command for it but some of the others will correct my poor technical knowledge no doubt.

 

If they are kicking the 4rse out of it then give them a polite warning ... and the second time just delete (you have a backup anyway!)

 

Also ... get confirmation from teachers which students need to have music in their home area. If their name is not down ... wel ... the music, it go bye-bye!

[tosca925]

If we said "we will delete all MP3 files except those in a folder called 'I Need These MP3s', they would simply put all their MP3s - legal and otherwise - in that folder. Our users aren't stupid!

 

 

Exactly

[wil0]

im just saying worring about the legalities of mp3s on your servers is pointless, and exactly because the copyright laws are a farce, no one will arrest you,

All well and good but your impression of an ostrich doesn't relate to the real world.

 

Remember what happened when millions of college students adopted that attitude in the US and a small selection were visited by officials who promptly made their student loans the least of their problems. You can bet they figured the old "it'll never happen to me" thing applied.. it didn't.

 

Granted the system needs an overhaul but we live in the here and now and the ostrich approach has no bearing. Playing russian roulette with your job, your schools reputation and the law is just plain dumb..

 

Most american colleges are actually not passing on letters from the riaa or private firms claiming copyright infringement anymore, exactly because of this. More to the point like i said, your only going to get legal action brought against you if you are running insecure P2P programs (which if they can your not doing your job very well) and are sharing and uploading the music. Search for riaa on digg.com its got all the latest storys on this.

The music being present on your servers provides no real legal threat, its "illigal" but like everyone says the copyright laws are outdated and even the legal system knows this. I would be suprised if they could even bring a charge against you, that would stand up in court.

 

Again tell kids to put their mp3s in the my music folder, limit the folder size and everything will be fine. You will never stop kids from downloading and listeing to music on your network. Kids will get bored of only being able to keep 10mb of mp3s, and will just put them on their mp3 players or memory sticks.

Doing alevel music, music tech, media and other sibject involves you either using sources as mp3 files, or saving your work as mp3 files. Kids will also be saving alot of music work as mp3 files from programs such as cubase, dance ejay, fruity loops, and even sibelius.

By blanket deleting you will be deleting peoples work, and sometimes vital files in peoples work.

 

I dont think im being unreasonable, im being realistic, and sugesting a compromise solution. As a former student i know how sometimes its important you can use mp3s. blanket deleting is not a solution, its counter productive, people will complain.

[Geoff]

The music being present on your servers provides no real legal threat, its "illigal" but like everyone says the copyright laws are outdated and even the legal system knows this. I would be suprised if they could even bring a charge against you, that would stand up in court.

 

Facilitating copyright infringement is a Criminal offense in the EU now due to the IPRED2 directive.

 

Article 3 Offences

 

Member States shall ensure that all intentional infringements of an intellectual property right on a commercial scale, and attempting, aiding or abetting and inciting such infringements, are treated as criminal offences.

 

http://fsfeurope.org/projects/ipred2/