Apple Leadership Event 19th October : Questions please

[GrumbleDook]

Apple are holding the West Midlands Leadership Event on 18th October and repeating it on 19th.

 

I have been invited along to 19th October and I am looking for questions to put to Apple about managing Apple hardware / software in schools. I already have some (as mentioned in another thread) but it is unrealistic to try to ask more than 5 questions across the day ... so ... please feel free to raise some questions here, merge them in with questions from others and I will get a final list up a day or two before the event. The more real life we can make this the better. Examples like "I have been handed 30 iPads as an alternative to a set of laptops so how do I install software and use them in a multi-user environment ... not a 1:1 scheme" is good.

 

In the interest of keeping things fair, can we make sure that questions are along the positive / constructive criticism line ... we all know how some folk feel about Apple, their hardware, their OSes, etc ... and we have to remember that the stuff is out there in schools and many members have to deal with it on a daily basis.

[stevenwba]

If i have a site license of iworks and have it on disk, how do i go about installing it on ipads?

 

Now everything is geared towards to app store, as a school, we are finding it diffcult to go about buying apps, and using apple id/id's to roll out apps to multiple hardware ipad/macbook/imac.

 

Questions on licensing, of apps, maybe a volume feature, so one apple id can buy and get discount on large numbers of apps.

 

I can think of some more, but for me, the most urgent now, is the whole software issue, and purcashing from the app store, because we can only buy via PO, it means getting itunes vouchers every time we want something.

[featured_spectre]

I have a suite of Mac minis that are using bootcamp to dual boot with windows, when running the bootcamp windows, why do the mac mini's drastically overheat and power down compared to when OSX Leopard is running? (No upgrade to snow leopard on these things!)

[GrumbleDook]

Had a few more things. Some folk might already have answers or partial answers on these. I've put together some general areas to think about.

 

Management of Desktop / Laptops, including deployment of images and software, managing of users and connecting into Windows domains.

Management of iDevices over a wireless network

Management of software on iDevices in a multi-user environment

Infrastructure changes needed for 1:1 schemes

Charging of iDevices

Licensing changes due to iTunes Store / App Store

 

Feel free to use these to flesh things out.

[GCB]

Perfect timing! I have just been asked by our Board of Directors to look into iPads for all of our senior school and I am a little worried about the effectiveness of using them in the classroom, how best to manage them from an IT point of view and as an educational resource. I think that you have covered all the points that are on my mind, especially about how to install and update software/apps on 30+ iPads! As I am sure we have all seen in the Apple Stores, using iPads as info points shows how far an iPad can be locked down and controlled – a useful feature in the classroom(!?!) I won’t mention Flash…

[Chris_Cook]

* Whats happening with 10.7 and active directory? When will it work?

* Can they make it so we can install osx server virtually on non-mac hardware? (I mean legitimately, not just technically)

[featured_spectre]

Question 2 is going to be a no....they've said they want it on MAC hardware only.

[Arthur]

If I have a site license of iWork and have it on disk, how do I go about installing it on iPads?

You can't. iWork for OS X and iWork for iOS are two separate products. The site license for the former doesn't cover the latter.

 

Can they make it so we can install OS X Server virtually on non-Mac hardware? (I mean legitimately, not just technically)

As Nephilim said, this is never going to happen.

[teejay]

How do you get an iPad to work with the vast majority of educational software and VLE? content which is Flash based?

[GrumbleDook]

How do you get an iPad to work with the vast majority of educational software and VLE? content which is Flash based?

 

I think we all know the answer to this one already ... VLE and resource providers which use Flash will not be friendly to iOS devices, but can still be used on notebook / desktop devices, and that there are a number of workarounds (remote desktop services, etc) which can be used. Perhaps the question could be "What are Apple doing to work with existing suppliers of educational resources and VLEs to make sure that any developments will be iOS friendly?"

[pete]

How committed is Apple to ensuring Macs can continue to integrate with site-wide Directory Services (be they OpenLDAP/Kerberos/AD) for single auth. The Lion security problems are worrying and might suggest a lack of care in implementation.

[teejay]

I think we all know the answer to this one already ... VLE and resource providers which use Flash will not be friendly to iOS devices, but can still be used on notebook / desktop devices, and that there are a number of workarounds (remote desktop services, etc) which can be used. Perhaps the question could be "What are Apple doing to work with existing suppliers of educational resources and VLEs to make sure that any developments will be iOS friendly?"

 

Ok, reword the question - 'Are Apple prepared to fund the costs of educational software providers to rewrite any Flash based software to be compatible with iOS so the upgrade can be provided to their existing school customers free of charge?'

[GrumbleDook]

Ok, reword the question - 'Are Apple prepared to fund the costs of educational software providers to rewrite any Flash based software to be compatible with iOS so the upgrade can be provided to their existing school customers free of charge?'

 

Again ... I think we all know there answer to this one. It will be something like "When a new system comes onto the market there are often changes which need to be made to software to ensure it runs on it. This happened with going from Win98 to W2k / WinXP, and we look at the move to users accessing resources and VLEs via an iOS device in the same way. When Windows 8 comes out, if that also means that educational software needs to be changed then we would not expect to see Microsoft being asked to pay for companies to redevelop their products".

 

And yes ... that is paraphrased from answers I have had previously from both MS, Apple, Capita, Serco and Adobe.

[GrumbleDook]

Ok, so fine tuning the questions then.

 

1) What are the plans for making integration of OSX.7 and AD actually happen and stay as something reliable?

 

2) Can Apple give examples, case studies and instructions about how to employ iOS Devices in a multi-device, multi-user environment ... taking into consideration accessing and saving files, security, patch management, application deployment and configurations settings for accessing the network infrastructure?

 

3) Can Apple be clear about how Apps are now to be licensed on iOS and LionOS devices, taking into account that this is for devices that are multi-user and users who will access multiple devices, especially in the light of recent changes to the iTunes ToS in the UK.

 

4) Can Apple be clear about what work they are doing with suppliers of educational resources and tools to help them provide stuff that will work across the range of Apple devices? If you can get Flash to work it would be a start!

 

5) When will Apple start giving information to people in schools instead of just saying "Go ask an ASE" ... who are wonderful, but people in schools also want to learn and deploy things themselves (or have to, depending on the budgets).

(Sorry if it seems that I want to do ASEs out of some business ...)

 

Reserve questions (in case anyone else asks one of the above or if there is a clear demonstration of it at the event)

 

6) Any chance of knocking another 20% off the price for schools?

7) When are you coming back to BETT instead of just being done by ASEs? (who are wonderful people ... yada, yada, yada)

8) When can we stick OSX on kit other than Apple kit? We'll pay! Honest!

 

Anything else? Any re-wording needed?

[featured_spectre]

Question 8 is the biggest IMO. If I could install Lion OSX legitimately on my laptop I would be very very happy as it would give me a base to play around with the functionality more than just using VMs!

[Arthur]

8) When can we stick OS X on kit other than Apple kit? We'll pay! Honest!

I don't think this question is even worth asking. Apple will never allow OS X to be installed on non-Apple hardware or in a VM on non-Apple hardware. Why would they want to sell you a copy of Lion for £20.99, when they can sell you a MacBook Air for £849.99-£1,652.00? Steve would be turning in his grave if this happened.

 

Other people suggest that Apple should allow OS X to be virtualized on any brand of hardware, even suggesting that Apple should sell a special license for this case. But this is a bad idea. Just selling the OS separately to run as a VM... what's the point of that? So people can run it without buying Apple hardware? What's in it for Apple? Then you'd have all these people who can't afford "real" hardware clogging up the Apple support ecosystem because their piece-of-*** machine doesn't paint the graphics as well as a MacBook.

 

Other folks have suggested that Apple should sell these virtual hardware licenses so Mac OS X can run in a datacenter on real datacenter (e.g. "non-Apple") hardware which could be used to drive massive OS X-based VDI deployments. Again, this would be a colossally bad thing to do. The reasons people use VDI and the reasons they use Macs are not the same reasons. (In fact, they're almost the opposite.) And all of the beautiful graphics that Apple has can't be remoted except with the fastest LANs, so if you're only going to use an OS X-based VDI environment with a fast LAN... really.. what's the point? (Source)

 

1) What are the plans for making integration of OS X.7 and AD actually happen and stay as something reliable?

The 10.7.2 update released yesterday mentions the following...

 

Improve Active Directory and LDAP integration.

 

It might be fine now.

[HodgeHi]

You could ask why did they discontinue the Xserve and replace it with non-enterprise solutions with no power redundancy and in the case of the mac mini no way of using more than one Ethernet port?

 

Also why the hell did they release lion server as they have done. Will they look to release a more fully fledged version with the service management tools put back in server admin?

[Chris_Cook]

I don't think this question is even worth asking. Apple will never allow OS X to be installed on non-Apple hardware or in a VM on non-Apple hardware. Why would they want to sell you a copy of Lion for £20.99, when they can sell you a MacBook Air for £849.99-£1,652.00? Steve would be turning in his grave if this happened.

 

If you don't ask, you don't get. If they did a separate vm licence for esx or xen, they could charge more and have keep the same amount of profit. OSX server used to cost quite a lot on its own.

 

Having looked at the mac "server" mini, its rubbish - having a redundant hd doesn't make it server grade. It doesn't have much in the way of ventilation, and generally seems low quality to me, especially given the price. Also VDI and server virtualisation arn't quite the same thing. You can have other benefits with virtualisation like reduced electricity bills, hardware redundancy etc. Like you say, you don't really want to do video editing etc with VDI. The cost of a mac server is quite high if I just want to use MCX and workgroup manager, it really doesn't warrant its own physical box.

 

 

The 10.7.2 update released yesterday mentions the following...

 

Improve Active Directory and LDAP integration.

 

It might be fine now.

 

Given the utter failure I had with it last week, I probably won't bother trying it anytime soon. I'd quite like to know if they even tested the ad integration before they released it first time round.

 

Anyway, I think this might be OT now.

[GrumbleDook]

I have to agree with those of you wanting to virtualise your servers to allow for some redundancy. The idea of running multiple Mac Minis to try to do this is missing the point. Although that last question is tongue in cheek it was based on a real request from a member.

 

Thanks for the feedback ... keep it coming. I know a few ASEs are reading this thread too ... so nothing should come as too much of a surprise to those at the event.

[Arthur]

If you don't ask, you don't get.

I am expecting a "no comment" for this question.

 

Q. I want to receive more information about future Apple products and technology initiatives. How can I get this information from Apple?

A. It is Apple's policy not to comment on unannounced products or products under development, whether or not they actually exist. It is also against our policy to discuss release dates. (Source)

 

You only have to look at Apple's three year court case with Psystar in the U.S. and Steve Jobs killing off the Mac clones when he returned to Apple in 1997 to see that installing/virtualizing OS X on non-Apple hardware is never going to happen. Apple has zero incentive to change the status quo, especially with sales of Mac hardware increasing.

 

 

OS X server used to cost quite a lot on its own.

Selling software directly to consumers via the Mac App Store has resulted in lower prices across the board for all of Apple's applications (particularly Lion and Final Cut Pro X). The new lower price for Lion Server also makes it more appealing to home users with multiple iDevices.

 

Having looked at the Mac "server" mini, it's rubbish - having a redundant HD doesn't make it server grade.

I agree that it could be better, but there is always the Mac Pro if you need something more reliable from a hardware perspective and expandable. I don't think the lack of redundant PSUs or LOM are show-stoppers for most schools.

 

The addition of Thunderbolt on every new Mac also makes internal storage less of an issue because you can easily add it externally (see the RAID enclosures from Promise, Sonnet and LaCie), connect to a SAN using a Thunderbolt to Fibre Channel adapter or use a PCIe expansion chassis (Sonnet RackMac mini Xserver, Magma ExpressBox 3T) along with a suitable RAID card and HDDs/SSDs.

 

It doesn't have much in the way of ventilation, and generally seems low quality to me, especially given the price.

The new Mac mini's do get a bit hotter due to the jump from using 25w processors (Core 2 Duo P8600/P8800) in the 2010 models to 35-45w processors (Core i5-2415M/i5-2520M/i7-2635QM) in the 2011 models while keeping the same case from the previous-generation Mac mini Server. The latest models are apparently quite noisy under load, but I expect this will change next year when Apple release Mac's based on Intel's lower power "Ivy Bridge" processors.

 

The cost of a mac server is quite high if I just want to use MCX and workgroup manager, it really doesn't warrant its own physical box.

You don't necessarily have to buy a Mac server if you store preferences in Active Directory...

 

tookitaway.co.uk/2011/09/managing-osx-10-6-preferences-for-macs-connected-to-an-active-directory-domain/

blog.michael.kuron-germany.de/2011/02/active-directory-mac-os-x-mcx/

 

Updates can be handled with Reposado and software deployment with Munki.

[GrumbleDook]

@arthur

 

Thanks for the information about some alternatives to WGM, etc ... one problem I am coming across though is with some schools (primary and secondary) with limited staff and time, with limited expertise, are the people hitting problems. I know we have solutions like RM CCx in schools ... and it is there for a reason. At the moment there is nothing like that with Apple (ever since they caused problems for HiResolution which resulted in MacAdministrator going!) and the idea is to have as simple a solution as possible ... and one that consistently works. That is why, even though Apple have 'fixed things' in there last update (10.7.2) there is a very valid history of them breaking things again ... and some folk are forced to use a new OS / build that doesn't always work, because that is what comes on the hardware and they can't downgrade the OS version.

[drewp]

How can we use iPads in education when proxy servers are used and apps don't support authentication/identification?

[GrumbleDook]

Hi @drewp

 

Thanks for the nudge, I had updated my Questions list but not on here.

 

1) What are the plans for making integration of OSX.7 and AD actually happen and stay as something reliable?

 

2) Can Apple give examples, case studies and instructions about how to employ iOS Devices in a multi-device, multi-user environment ... taking into consideration accessing and saving files, security, patch management, application deployment and configurations settings for accessing the network infrastructure? This includes working with educational networks where there are specific filters, proxies, firewalls, etc.

 

3) Can Apple be clear about how Apps are now to be licensed on iOS and LionOS devices, taking into account that this is for devices that are multi-user and users who will access multiple devices, especially in the light of recent changes to the iTunes ToS in the UK.

 

4) Can Apple be clear about what work they are doing with suppliers of educational resources and tools to help them provide stuff that will work across the range of Apple devices? If you can get Flash to work it would be a start!

 

5) When will Apple start giving information to people in schools instead of just saying "Go ask an ASE" ... who are wonderful, but people in schools also want to learn and deploy things themselves (or have to, depending on the budgets).

(Sorry if it seems that I want to do ASEs out of some business ...)

 

Reserve questions (in case anyone else asks one of the above or if there is a clear demonstration of it at the event)

 

6) Any chance of knocking another 20% off the price for schools?

7) When are you coming back to BETT instead of just being done by ASEs? (who are wonderful people ... yada, yada, yada)

8) When can we stick OSX on kit other than Apple kit? We'll pay! Honest!

 

I think it fits within the context of Question 2 in the same way we would have to consider similar if putting any other software / system within a school.

[Robbocop]

If i have a site license of iworks and have it on disk, how do i go about installing it on ipads?

 

Now everything is geared towards to app store, as a school, we are finding it diffcult to go about buying apps, and using apple id/id's to roll out apps to multiple hardware ipad/macbook/imac.

 

Questions on licensing, of apps, maybe a volume feature, so one apple id can buy and get discount on large numbers of apps.

 

I can think of some more, but for me, the most urgent now, is the whole software issue, and purcashing from the app store, because we can only buy via PO, it means getting itunes vouchers every time we want something.

 

stevenwba, someone might have already said this, but just in case: iWork for Mac is a different licence to the Pages/Numbers/Keynote apps for iPad. An iWork site licence is not valid for the iPad versions.

 

Apple have allowed some resellers to sell 20+ volume licences of Mac apps now. We at Jigsaw are one of them, but it's fairly widespread I think. So if you need 20 or more Apertures, Final Cuts, Lions etc you can approach your favourite reseller. Sadly there still isn't a reseller scheme for one-off purchases like a single Lion Server licence or Apple Remote desktop.

 

Hope that's useful.

[GrumbleDook]

Well, it was a good event I did tweet a heck of a lot (I wasn't trying to compete with @TheScarfedOne and @EduTech who were at the Microsoft IT Academy event in Reading ... honest) and I am going through my notes to put together a fuller report.

 

I managed to get most of the questions asked during the sessions in one form or another ... and I am very thankful for some Apple staff who stayed behind to have a longer discussion.

 

I'll stick a link to the report in this thread once it is finished.

 

Once again, many thanks to all who put forward suggestions.