Looking into Virtual Desktops for small amount of PCs - £4-5k ? Possible

[burgemaster]

Hi all,

 

We have been awarded a sum of money that "HAS" to be spent in a certain area within the school. This being a small room with 10 computers.

We have been awarded 4-5k, so instead of replacing these 10 computers and having money left over that we cannot spend, i though about the possibility of stepping into virtualision of the OS`s.

 

We currently have many of our servers virtualised using Hyper-V on 3 x Dell hosts. But we DONT have a SAN and cant see us buying one in the near future . We have an MD3000 SAS for the storage.

 

My question is... Would it be possible to buy a new dell powerful rack server with lots of RAM for maybe 2-3k and use the remaining to buy 10 x monitor mounted thin clients or acer revo type computers.

 

Am I dreaming here or could this be possible withing a small budget?

Even though this is for such a small number of machines it would give us valuable experience and the possibility for expansion if it is a sucess?

 

I would aim/hope to spec the server to be able to host 30-120 machines if possible? Is a SAN a nessesitly?

[jamesfed]

Have a look at Kaviza from Citrix - dosn't use a SAN so it works a treat.

 

Hyper-V edition is currently in beta testing (we are accualy testing it here) however it works with Citrix XenServer (free edition) as well as VMWare (but the less said about that the better!).

It should certinly be a possible thing with your budget so if you want to be put in contact with the UK guy who looks after it just give me a PM.

[scifidale]

Why would it have to be powerful, with that budget you could buy a bog standard server, and use terminal services, buy a few wyse s10 thin clients and push settings out with ini file through a ftp site. guess it depends on what the computers will be doing though, but just for standard RDP traffic with officey apps 4-8gb, should be plenty man enough.

[burgemaster]

Thanks for the replies...

 

you could buy a bog standard server, and use terminal services

 

Terminal services we introduced years back for some of the admin team, the reason why I wanted a powerfull server as I would hope that it would be scalable and as we have 90 PCs that are reaching 5 years old and due for replacement, virtualised desktops with ultra thin clients could be a huge saving all round. Not to mention all the other benifits of virtualisation...

 

Have a look at Kaviza from Citrix - dosn't use a SAN so it works a treat.

Great thanks for this, will look into it tmrw. From their spec per 30x machines i would need a 8 core 32gig server. I would guess this is going to be around 3k

[andrew-virtusolve]

You may be surprised at how powerful Remote Desktop Services is these days under Windows 2008R2, a LOT of people that come to us looking for VDI end up going down that route as you can do much more these days with it. PLUS, if you are on a budget, you can then look at the Axel ZeroClients instead of Wyse to get the costs down!

[burgemaster]

Thanks Andrew. By "Axel ZeroClients", would you be meaning the Axel AX3000 thin clients?

These are very cheap now and would look neat on the back of a monitor.

 

Would the Axels and a new server with 2k8 r2 as a dedicated Terminal Server really compare to a physical workstation or a VDI solution?

 

Thanks for the help.

Edited September 5, 2011 by burgemaster

[plexer]

You could also look into windows multipoint server 2011

 

Ben

[burgemaster]

You could also look into windows multipoint server 2011

Ben

Hey Ben,

"Windows MultiPoint Server 2011 Premium Edition supports up to 20 simultaneously connected user stations"

Not as scalable as i thought it might be.

Thanks

[plexer]

No but it depends on how you deploy it from directly connected graphics to usb connected hubs with built in gfx or rdp clients it's the flexibility that I like.

 

Currently deployed an 8 seat machine into an ict suite using direct connected graphics and if it all goes to plan the other 25 pc's in the room will be replaced with more mps 2011 boxes.

 

This is reducing the cost for hardware and also deployment time for ICT suites whilst not being the same as a 100% virtual desktop implementation.

 

Ben

[andrew-virtusolve]

VDI has a very specific use case when it comes down to comparing with the other options and it in essence is this - if you need a performant and user configurable desktop that is ran from a central location or infrastructure and has requirements for either fast updating video or intensive applications (design, media video etc) then VDI is for you.

 

However, if you want to deploy a number of end user devices, maintain a standardised delivery of mainly office based applications and have no desire for intensive use or heavy use of flash or very good quality video then Remote Desktop Services or Thin-Client delivery from another vendor may be for you.

 

The majority of educational establishments we go into end up with either RDS or a Hybrid delivery of RDS and VDI, most people pushing full VDI have rarely fully understood the user requirements as (although not impossible), it is very rare that an organisation needs the full flexibility of VDI.

 

In the early days, many projects found this out to cost, you would provide the hardware and software after a long qualification period asking all the right questions only to be told - "we want one standard desktop image based on Windows XP" and then you see 300 kids doing nothing more than Facebook and Microsoft word on them!

 

Am not saying VDI is never the answer, it's just a case of establishing exactly what you are trying to achieve before you start, there is nothing stopping you trying a RDS rollout and a smaller VDI implementation and then ramping up to full VDI afterwards if RDS does not cut the mustard

[jamesfed]

Have a look at Kaviza from Citrix - dosn't use a SAN so it works a treat.

Great thanks for this, will look into it tmrw. From their spec per 30x machines i would need a 8 core 32gig server. I would guess this is going to be around 3k

 

We run 20 desktops off a AMD 8 core with 44Gb RAM and 4x15k drives and that cost us £3,500 so you could probably do 10 desktops for less

[plexer]

I can do 24 direct connected devices with 3 multipoint servers for £3k

 

Ben

[glennda]

i would buy a decent server - install TS on it then install windows thin pc on the old fat clients and then set them up to auto login and replace the registry key that calls explorer.exe with mstsc.exe with a few command line switches to read a .rdp connection file. you can then setup a script on the old fat clients which querys if the mstsc process is running if not start it.

[scifidale]

Terminal services works great for us and I dare say is more cost effective than VDI at the moment as all our user only need standard officey apps, so yes VDI is better for higher end apps, but at the mo we dont need it. My original post was assuming that you would stay at 10 endpoints and not be looking at expanding up to 90, still I think I stand by my original point as we can quite happily manage around 50 RDP connections to modest hardware which saves us a bucket load on licencing.

[burgemaster]

i would buy a decent server - install TS on it then install windows thin pc on the old fat clients and then set them up to auto login and replace the registry key that calls explorer.exe with mstsc.exe with a few command line switches to read a .rdp connection file. you can then setup a script on the old fat clients which querys if the mstsc process is running if not start it.

 

Hi,

The room would be later inspected by the trust that awarded this money. If they saw no change I dont think i could understand virtualisation to 8x 50-80year olds! lol

Also the computers are popping PSUs and motherboards each week, they really are on there way out!!

Thanks

[creese]

If they saw no change I dont think i could understand virtualisation to 8x 50-80year olds! lol

 

I'm a few weeks from my 55th... try me..

[Axel]

We are about to introduce a specific Ethernet based dedicated Multipoint terminal, developed in conjunction with Microsoft France. (Axel is a French company).

 

This device is based on the M80 hardware, but is optimised for a single session, supports all the specific Multipoint teacher monitoring/remote control/shadowing functions (Do USB WMS connections support these - I understand some do and

some don't...?).

 

It also has much improved graphics performance. (For those that are interested we have implemented the Microsoft NScodec {google it!} , and an "off screen video buffer", so video is buffered frame by frame before being displayed. Currently we

update the screen as soon as we receive new data, which is fast, but not particularly easy on the eyes !. The new buffer makes a massive difference, in that there is a nice smooth transition from frame to frame

 

The video enhancements are available as (free) f/w upgrades to existing M80 terminals - though is still beta - so not on our website yet. Email me if you would like a copy of the new f/w to trial

 

[email protected]

 

... as Multipoint server is heavily based on W2008r2 I am not sure the user limit above is applicable for ethernet/RDP connections...?

[burgemaster]

I'm a few weeks from my 55th... try me..

 

Sorry, didnt mean to offend. But these gentlemen are mainly from the Church and I don't think they would be able to comprehend it.

[creese]

Sorry, didnt mean to offend. But these gentlemen are mainly from the Church and I don't think they would be able to comprehend it.

 

Not offended at all.

[plexer]

Windows MultiPoint Server 2011 - Common Questions and Answers Part 2 (from TechEd) - Windows MultiPoint Server Team Blog - Site Home - TechNet Blogs

 

20 stations is the limit.

 

I would be very interested in pricing for these units can you PM me inidicative pricing please?

 

Ben

[burgemaster]

Gone for:

Dual Quad Core dell server with 32gig ram - £2600

8 x Axel Zero clients @157 - £1256

8 x 22" LG LCD Monitors @ 69.99 - £559.91

8 x TS cal @ £12 - £96

Total: £4511.91

 

It will currently run these 8 machines with Terminal Services, but next year posibly expand to 60 machines with an upgrade to 64gig RAM.

All depending on how it goes....

 

Wish me luck.

[gshaw]

To me the numbers don't stack up for 8 machines... even at £400 per desktop you'd still be coming in less. Granted if you get 60 machines out of it the numbers become a lot nicer.

 

If you did go up to 60 would you put a second server in? That's a lot of eggs (users) in one basket (server) if something goes wobbly...

[jamesfed]

Uve got to remember there is a lot of value added in VDI/Thin Clients as well - think of the power savings of a thin client compared to a fat client (65-90W vs 6-12W).

Then the wonderful world of ture central management - no chance for a PC to 'go off on its own'.

Lets remember these systems scale very nicely as well so even if you do make a small loss at just 8 clients you can expand in the future.

 

Are you anywhere near Abingdon (Oxfordshire) as we will be doing a demo to any intrested schools in June.

[gshaw]

If that's the Kaviza demo have replied in your other thread

 

Interesting point of note on power saving; I remember a presentation about server virtualisation stating that if you actually calculate the cost of the power it would take 10yrs+ to get back what you pay out on the system initially... of course it's good to be going green but sometimes the monetary savings aren't as quick to pay back as you'd hope on their own.

 

The thin client \ VDI method definitely has benefits but on the other hand you do lose certain features as well and the way our budgets work I still need to see savings on the initial purchase cost as well as longer-term. Hence Kaviza being of interest as you only pay for the server not silly money going on storage systems

 

The other reason I'm interested in your Kaviza day is to see what the optimum number of machines you can fit onto each server i.e. do you just take say 2GB \ 1 core per VM and multiply up or is it more \ less efficient than that...

Edited April 12, 2012 by gshaw