Proposed New Network

[rlculver]

Hi,

 

It is so nice having a website which solely deals with the education sector of ICT.

 

I am in the middle of proposing a new network for my school (curriculum).

 

I am currently running a windows 2000 server with mapped network drives for staff home areas etc. I have windows 98, 2000 & xp clients.

 

As the school get bigger (we are being redeveloped), there is a greater need for me to have a more centrally managed system. Currently I have to go around each computer to install a new software package, whereby I am looking at putting in system whereby all applications are distributed from the server.

 

I have been looking at CC3, but have heard good / bad comments. I have also considered doing it myself through windows 2003 server, but is this advisable?

 

Any comments would be great!

 

Robert

[sidewinder]

Very much advisable to do it yourself!

You will of course have to learn a lot more yourself, as there wont be so much done for you out of the box, but if you can put the time in it would be more rewarding.

Its always good if you've designed the network from the ground up and know all the in's and outs of it, easier to troubleshoot

Plus you'll save the school a lot of money

 

I assume you are running a domain at the minute? If so you've obviously got some experiance with Active Directory etc so its not like you would be totally jumping in at the deep end

[rlculver]

Hi Sidewinder,

 

Thanks for the comments.

 

I do have a basic knowledge, but do not understand about RIS and Package deployment. I have purchased a book for learning windows 2003 server, but is their any other resources where I can get a more overview / step by step process for getting a basic system running for rem,ote installation of windows xp to desktops and pakcage deployment.

 

Thanks for the fast reponse. I need to get a building networked using the new system ready for September 2007!

[kingswood]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Profiles-IntelliMirror-Windows-Administrator-Library/dp/0782144470/ref=pd_ka_1/026-4353476-3567656?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1174339613&sr=8-1

 

Get it. It's bloody good.

 

:-)

 

Forgot to mention why!

 

..errmm..it covers RIS, GPSI (Group Policy Software Installation) and things like profile types, registry settings, redirected folders and a lot of the stuff you will need to know quickly. I use mine all the time. I'm not too proud to say that it's saved my bacon a few times!

[GrumbleDook]

Welcome Robert ... Pop over to here and introduce yourself.

 

I you can put where you are located too that can help pinpoint someone who is local to you that can help you.

 

As for RIS ... there is a thread here which goes through some of the ins and outs of it ...

 

For books ... I would recommend that Minasi series for seriously getting to grips with Server 2003 R2 and I would also recommend having a look through the Microsoft Webcasts pages for more information and help.

[sidewinder]

Cant argue with Kingswood's recommendation there. That book is one of the most useful Ive ever purchased, never found anything else that goes into group policy in such detail

[rlculver]

Hi,

 

Many thanks for all the comments. I will visit the other links to introduce myself etc.

 

The books looks great - i might well order this

 

Do you think I am pushing it a bit to get this ready for September or do you think once I get the main config done, everything else will be able to be carried out quickly?

 

Stay clear of RM then? - Manual route will give me more job satisfaction

[webman]

I wouldn't say stay clear of RM full stop.. we're now in our 5th year of a smooth-running CC3 network. The time you save not having to start a vanilla network from scratch and then mess about with GPOs, RIS, manual package deployment etc., you can put into developing new and other ideas to expand the network further. I could go on all day about the benefits to us of an RM network, much to the annoyment of the vanilla clan

[maniac]

One option you might want to considor is a self built network running a package such as ranger over the top (that's what we do)

 

Packages such as ranger give you facilities such as bulk importing of users, easy user management, easy to manage desktops and start menus, extensions to active directory for additional security lock downs on workstations, user logging and package deployment and there's addons available such as ranger remote control that teachers can use in ICT suites to control and view users workstations etc. It's not cheap thou.

 

There are other solutions and packages available, but we use ranger so that's what I'm familure with. Saying that, a lot of what ranger does can be achieved with active directory if you know what you're doing, ranger just makes it a lot easier.

 

Having rebuilt our network from the ground up over the last summer holidays, I can tell you from experience it's no easy task. Preparation is the key, and alowing plenty of time for testing at the end of the project is vitally important too.

 

There are also lots of other coniderations, not just the building of the network domain, but the migrating of the user accounts and data, exchange mailboxes if you have them and your MIS system not to mention every single workstation in your school would need to be re-imaged and tested. This is the one big advantage of using a company such as RM, as they will often carry out most of this work for you, and also crucially provide support when things go wrong.

 

As a footnote, if you are the only technician in your school, I would urge you to go for a solution from one of the big companies, as carrying out a project like this on your own with little or no support is probably not a good idea. If things go wrong and your school is anything like mine then SLT will look to point the finger at someone, and if you constructed the network then that will end up being you. If you buy the network in, then you can pass the blame.

 

One last thing, if you are looking to achieve this for september this year, then you can't hang around much longer. Companies such as RM, Viglen etc. will start getting booked up for installations over the summer from around now as schools find out how much money they've got to play with. Realisticly, in my opinion, you need to make the decision in the next couple of weeks.

 

Just a ramble from me, hope it's helpful.

 

Mike.

[Guest monkeyx]

:oops:

[maniac]

If RM networks and Ranger were so good why is virtually no one using it outside of education.

 

Quite frankly if setting up GPO and RIS seems like messing about, then I think you a working in the wrong sector! I have worked on some very secure accounts where vanilla Windows/Linux builds worked just fine!

 

What made are builds slightly less vanilla is that we had a good understanding of AD, GPO, RIS etc etc so that it did what we wanted we very little day to day management.

 

Sorry if my post seems blunt but I strongly believe that school networks are not unique and that standard OS tools work just fine and help staff develop industry wide skills, rather than a telly tubbies guide(RM and Ranger et all) to managing networks! All my technicians are happy to be learning skills that are going to transferable to any IT sector!

 

Both ranger and RM exclusively aim their products at the schools sector, I'm not sure if they would even sell to a business. The tools they provide are supposed to make networks easier to manage than a normal active directory network, and are set up in a way that virtually anyone could manage the basics of the network. Most of that idea stems from the time where ICT teachers were quite often the network admins as well. They also offer certain useful features that are very specific to schools.

 

Underneath an RM, viglen or ranger network is a normal active directory windows 2003 based network. The ranger, RM or viglen tools simply bolt onto active directory to make certain administration and management tasks easier, but do also add an extra layer of functionality. With ranger for instance I can bring up a screen showing prcisesly where each and every user is logged on, what programs their running, how long they've been logged on, retrieve a screen dump of what they're looking at, force a log off or shut down of the workstation etc. Some of these tasks can be achieved with a vanilla network, some can't, but having the ranger toolbar on my desktop means all of these tasks are just a click away. It's more of a convenience than a neccessity, but it's a convenience factor than many schools consider is worth the extra expense these systems cost.

 

Insidently when I started here, I was very sceptical about ranger, and we had a very long discussion about whether to load ranger back onto the system or not when we rebuilt our network. The eventual answer was yes, as there are a few features in ranger that are either impossible or very difficult to achieve with active directory.

 

Mike.

[SimpleSi]

@rlculver

 

Hi - I run several school setups that sound similiar to yours and I've started using WPKG to deploy software to my mixed bunch of workstations.

 

You basically define groups of computers and groups of packages and use a profile file to determine which computers get which packages.

 

All each client machine has to do is run a startup script (that I just stick in my All Users Startup group)

 

I don't try and be clever and get packages to install silently and I just use AutoIt to automate the installs.

 

It has the advantage of working on any (well Win98/2000/XP anyway) Windows OS Client and the "server" can be any machine capable of hosting Windows shares (so you can use a Linux machine running Samba if you like)

 

I'm running it at 4 schools 2 with W2k3 servers, 2 with just a Win98 acting as a "server".

 

Although the proper way to do things is to learn AD/GPO/RIS etc like the big boys and girls do around here - this method is a reasonable subsitute and doesn't rely on any knowledge only obtainable from large books or long courses [EDIT @kingswood but I've ordered that book you've recommend anyway ]

 

 

regards

 

Simon

 

PS A useful and simple way to get started is to make up a .bat file thats sets the time of workstation to time of server and deploy that to a workstation.

[Guest monkeyx]

:oops:

[webman]

If RM networks and Ranger were so good why is virtually no one using it outside of education.

 

Probably because their products are designed for education ....

 

Using those products limits your ability to learn standard OS features and ask for advice on how to manage your OS outside of the education sector

 

Only if you stick rigid to them. We manage other non-RM servers as well, including Windows 2000/2003, Linux and BSD.

 

For us, CC3 just makes life a little bit easier for our two-man team.

[wesleyw]

Let's not go down the route of RM versus Vanilla it's horses for courses after all CC3 can make your life easier also it can cause lots of problems only RM can help you with such is the nature of running a large system intregrated with MS Windows. I have moved two schools away from RM 2.4 and CC3 the networks can be longer to get up and running I did mine whilst the old network was still running and just turned it on in the summer rebuilt all the computers and attached them to the domain 6 weeks of making sure things were setup right then two weeks of the summer break used to move everything. We've had a much more stable system in my opinion however CC3 maybe for you I would look at the work involved and compare it to the cost of RM and RM support. It's not difficult to setup a windows network RIS takes some time to get used to but you could spend a little more and use Ghost or Net-Runna you can add utilities to the vanilla system to make things better and it will cost less than ranger or cc3 it depends on how customizable you want to make it and you could use LNM to setup your network then customize this until it matches what you want I've used it before and found it worked very well.

 

Wes

[maniac]

Both ranger and RM exclusively aim their products at the schools sector, I'm not sure if they would even sell to a business.

 

What makes you think a school is not a business like any other? I have now removed Ranger from two schools and noticed an immediate improvement in network performance and management! Don't even get me started on Ranger Solo!!!!

 

The best feature of Ranger for me was license control, but not worth the asking price for that one feature.

 

The fact the RM and Ranger get away with selling their products to schools proves that there is a skills shortage in the education sector. Quoting the fact that teachers use to manage networks is an old school anology as under work force reform that should no longer happen now?

 

Using those products limits your ability to learn standard OS features and ask for advice on how to manage your OS outside of the education sector

 

I really like the Edugeek site, but if I was looking for help on AD it would not be my first port of call, there are sites dedicated to just AD support that are applicable to what ever business you work for.

 

What I meant by business was any other business not associated with education.

 

I know ranger does sap network resources, but there are several things the package does which are bloody useful. If I could find other programs that would let me do that same, then I would probably use them, but as of yet, nothing else has come to light.

 

Yes there is a skills shortage in schools, mainly because most are reluctant to pay a decent salery, and even more reluctant to train their support staff fearing as soon as they're trained, they'lll bugger off somewhere else. Quoting the fact that teachers used to manage network was me trying to get across my opinion as to WHY we now have these companies offering these sorts of packages exclusively to schools. Now teachers aren't involved in the management of the network, I suspect the market place for such packages is falling rapidly.

 

Agree, using these products could limit your ability to learn standard OS features while carrying out your job, but if like me you are interested in doing this, you would take the time and trouble to learn these skills regardless. It depends whether you look on your role in the school as a job or a career. e.g One friend of mine is network manager at a school, but is not interested in a career in ICT, therefore has no interest in learning all the technicalities involved behind the scenes. These sorts of tools suit him fine because they allow his to do him job effectively and easily without having to learn everything that's actually happening.

 

It's basically a matter of what you prefer, vanilla network designed by yourself, or a package designed, provided and supported by an external company. Just because one school chooses one route, and another chooses a diffferent one doesn't make it right or wrong.

 

Mike

[Guest monkeyx]

error

[Guest monkeyx]

:oops:

[maniac]

No problem,

 

just read my reply back, came across a bit wrong, sorry! It's just a classic illusration of the fact that there never has been and never will be a single solution that suits everyone!

 

Mike.

[phantomphan]

I have been looking at CC3, but have heard good / bad comments. I have also considered doing it myself through windows 2003 server, but is this advisable?

 

Hi Robert

 

I am in a similar situation to you, my primary school is looking at moving the ICT Suite to a larger room, we are also getting a new server and expanding the network.

 

I have worked with Vanilla w2k3 for the past 3 years and although our network is very stable, I have not been able to use many of the features of w2k3 because I have no formal training on it, nor the time to teach myself enough - I only work 12 hours a week, support over 50 PCs, 12 Interactive Whiteboards plus projectors and teacher laptops etc.

 

I am insisting that a Network Management System is included in our network upgrade and have had two companies in to demonstrate and quote - RM and Ergo. I have someone coming from Ranger tomorrow and then I will make the decision. At the moment RM are favourite.

 

Reasons to pay for a Network Management System - in my view:

1. Speed of installation - they reckon they can have the whole network up and running in 3 days. I will then need to install the software I assume, and that will involve having to create some software packages (I believe this is fairly straightforward, but this might be wishful thinking).

2. Complete solution - network up and running, support at the end of a phone, easy to manage Server, remote software installation, easy group policies etc.

3. Cost - this is where RM fall down, but having added up cost of Ranger plus Server and setup of w2k3 (which I don't feel confident to do within a sensible time period with no hiccups) and RM is not that much more in the grand scheme of things - about £3000 more. This will save the school much time and money in training someone to manage vanilla w2k3 (I have not attended any training on it in 3 yrs) or employing someone who can.

 

Basically, to cut a long story short, it is all very well sticking to vanilla and all its wonderful features but if you don't know what you are doing, get something that will help.

 

If job satisfaction for you is figuring out complex problems and solving them, plus learning everything you can about w2k3 and being able to configure servers with you eyes shut - maybe you should go down that route.

 

However if job satisfaction is running a network with the minimum of fuss, which does everything you want it to do, enabling you to get on with the hundred other things that you are expected to do, then look at some sort of management solution.

 

I recommend you get people in to demonstrate and then decide - you can still go vanilla if that is what you want. You can always get someone in to configure the server and maybe give you some instruction to get you started.

 

This all assumes the school has the money for a NMS - our quote for RM is around 10k for new server and 100 machine network 8O

 

hope this is of some help. Good luck in your project. I have spent many hours awake at night thinking about all the options, worrying about making the wrong and very costly decision

 

Sorry for essay.

 

Phant

[ctbjs]

My thoughts here are why go down the route of buying into a service like RM in particular in view of the BSF plans to integrate everone into a managed service where your network will effectively be controlled from outside of the school in a server farm or data centre.

 

I've worked in an RM school in the past and ended up removing it due to the poor quality service response times, poor quality equipment and slow update of such. This does not mean that their service has improved in recent years. In particular I like their RM One workstations which are robust but I would always think twice again before bringing in a managed service.

 

Alas I believe this choice is being taken away from us again with BSF through P4S (Partnerships for Schools) who are tasked with guiding LAs into this managed service environment. I'm worried that we will end up with the same scenario as we did with RM but hope for the sake of the schools and our customers the staff and students, that it does not go this way.

 

I would make some enquires about BSF before spending the fortune of RM or any other service.

[valerium]

As someone who has been involved in IT for over 20 years, I am going to come down on the side of RM here. While many people advocate that a school is a business, its not, its a school. Resources are limited as we all know. A business I consult for employing 350 people has 15 IT support staff and a dedicated support line. It has a custom built server room and recently invested over £400,000 in new equipment. A school I work at part time has 350 users and can only dream of resources like that. There is me and my part time assistant to manage the entire network. When I first went there from the commercial sector, I wondered what this RM thing was doing sitting in front of my active directory and locking down GPO's. The reason its there is because probably 90% of schools cannot aafford to emply an IT professional on 50k per annum and have several assistants to back them up. Its not a skills shortage but a monetary one. While IT is critical in schools, they simply cannot afford the competaive rates to employ IT professionals from the private sector. RM put a nice simple interface in front of an other wise scary environment to allow the technicians etc to effectively run a network with backup from a huge company with excellent support. A vanilla network in a school requires resources that the school cannot afford. I note with interest that bigger schools are setting up vanilla networks and offering the resources out to smaller schools. I think this is a terrible idea but one that many smaller schools will consider as it will certainly be far more cost effective than employing people like me, but of course a lot less flexible as well. RM do a good job and CC4 has many improvements that will make it even better. Sure there are challenges. Show me a network that does not.

[daveyboy]

I note with interest that bigger schools are setting up vanilla networks and offering the resources out to smaller schools. I think this is a terrible idea but one that many smaller schools will consider as it will certainly be far more cost effective than employing people like me, but of course a lot less flexible as well

 

Why is it a terrible idea?

And why will they be less flexible?

[ctbjs]

A school I work at part time has 350 users and can only dream of resources like that. There is me and my part time assistant to manage the entire network

 

Dreaming of resources like that? My vanilla network is less expensive than RM and is not only robust but flexible and up to date. I have 2000 users on a 3 to 1 ratio students to computers (soon to become 2 to 1) and have only recently employed a technician to work alongside me. If the network is built on solid footings then there should not be a need to emphasise "entire" network as if it is some scary monstrosity. RM is not a bad company but unfortunately in years gone by its reputation was not good. Support was poor and call out fees were astronomical ( I was quoted £750 for a guy to come out from Scotland!!) I know they have improved somewhat since then but I fail to see why it is wrong to have vanilla networks in schools and also that it would be a terrible idea to share out resources to feeder or primary schools, and why do they need to employ people like you when there are many professionals out there that would commit full time to the role and provide a very good service.

 

The reason its there is because probably 90% of schools cannot aafford to emply an IT professional on 50k per annum and have several assistants to back them up

 

Why does a school have to spend so much money on a greedy IT professional wanting to take £50000. I don't earn that much and many of my colleagues with vast amounts of experience, qualifications and commitment to duty do not either. It is only because you have worked in the corporate game for so long that you earn so much. Yes we could probably also earn high figure salaries should we wish to be on call and strapped to a coroprate belt buckle all hours but some of like to work hard for the time we are here and provide a very good and often immediate service when and where its needed at no extra cost and no call out fees.

 

It's not that difficult to build a network, if its done right, and its not that difficult to maintain it if you are conscientious and committed. I put a lot of emphasis on service to my staff and pupils and they like that, they are, after all our customers!!

[rlculver]

Hi,

 

Thanks for all the comments!

 

I have just setup a windows 2003 server at home and are plodding though a book I purchased, as recommended on this website.

 

Overall, do you think I should go for CC3 or do my own vanilla install?

 

Robert