[sims] Academies, 'new' SIMS licenses and the EU concept of 'Exhaustion rights'

[localzuk]

I'm pretty sure they are scrupulous enough to store them securely and encrypted {and not reversible!}...

 

You'd think that about lots of companies, but you never know... Sony comes to mind...

[Rebelgirl]

So, for those less "in touch" - The LA buys the Sims licences for schools in its area. School A becomes Academy A. As Academy A they have to buy their own licence. The LA now has a licence that isn't being used. Do they

 

a) throw it in the bin cause it was bought for School A that doesn't exist anymore

b) sell it back to Capita

c) re-use it when new School Z comes to them to for support.

 

If a) why can't they sell it on to Academy A. Sorry if that seems like a simplistic senario.

 

Answers on a postcard.

[featured_spectre]

When that happens they sell back to capita for the same rate they paid for it....

[matt40k]

Currently it sits around doing nothing until a new LA "school" is opened. No annual maintenance paid etc.

[BromcomPublicRelations]

I'm not sure about 12months or longer grace. Then whatever the costs were are being burdened by the supplier with no guarantee that the school will stay with them.

I just think they should be reasonable and fair, which they don't appear to be.

I don't think the duress is necessarily from the supplier, but the process as a whole on the senior management, board of governors, it dept. to just make a decision.

Does anyone know the costs being charged by other suppliers, didn't it say somewhere RM is not charging?

 

Vik,

 

Our suggestion was 6 to 12 month grace. In fact it can be as low as 6 months and coincide with DfE-Buying Solutions' forthcoming Framework OJEU Tender for MIS which should be running by end of 2011. Schools/academies can utilise this Framework to procure their new MIS Software whether staying same supplier or change.

 

I assume members have seen DfE's notice: Information Management and Learning Services framework - The Department for Education

 

More importantly, if the MIS in use is 'good value for money' then the schools will stay with incumbent supplier in 6 months time anyway. It cannot be fairer than this. A short delay of 6 month will not prejudice the supplier other than delay in cash. Suppliers with large user base has the least to complain on this account!

 

We are daily in contact with schools. The message we are getting is very consistent - they have 1001 things to do in changing to become an academy and MIS is one thing that they rather did not touch for the time being! However they are confronting with a licence fee MIS and at this juncture schools are finding this far from helpful. Hence our reference that schools are facing to make a decision on MIS under duress.

 

From TES article (see below) we assume DfE is alerted to the situation and will make a provision in the procurement framework for schools converting to academy.

 

The other information you sought, you will find in the recent two TES editions as follows:

 

DfE seeks to break firm's stranglehold on back-office IT - News - TES Connect

 

IT company accused of 'excessive' profits - News - TES Connect

Edited June 15, 2011 by BromcomPublicRelations

[matt40k]

@BromcomPublicRelations - Can you confirm what you meant by a MIS? Does this include the finance package? Does this include the VLE? Or any other additional modules?

[GeneralDreedle]

So all these schools have been through BSF in recent years and have managed service providers. These have BSF contracts for 5 or 10 years whereby the service provider supplies SIMS and SIMS support.

 

Then one of them becomes an academy. It now has to pay Capita 25k even though it is still paying for SIMS via the managed service contract, and in fact cannot take the upgrades/ support etc from Capita Direct which it gets for it's 25k because it is not allowed to touch the servers - they may not even be in the school...

 

How does that work then?

[matt40k]

Can BSF schools go Academy? Anyone know if any of them have done this?

 

If a school has license directly with Capita, not via the LA, it would be transferred (ie Capita would replace School with Academy) for 200 notes. I would image however the contract is void when they become an Academy, depends on the contract really. Be interesting

 

PS: Not seen any quotes for 25k... yet, are they buy the entire of Capita lunch or something? For that sort of money I would want @PhilNeal will come down and personally do it for that sort of money

[GeneralDreedle]

"Can BSF schools go Academy? Anyone know if any of them have done this?"

Oh yes.

Could we maybe have some dim sum as well? And obviously proper deserts like bannoffee pie and stuff.

[creese]

Can BSF schools go Academy? Anyone know if any of them have done this?

 

They can and have and also Academies can go to BSF.

[GeneralDreedle]

Creese, any idea how many or who? And what they did about the double SIMS bill?

[matt40k]

Well it wouldn't be a double bill would it? They would have to purchase a new license, if the exist license was purchased by the LA. The maintaince would either be carried over - ie no cost, or the maintaince would be refunded (for the used part) and then recharged (for the remainder... which was just refunded) - like is done with normal schools*. The question would be if they could escape any contracts, but again, depends how the contract has been written.

 

* Just to confirm, the school pays the LA (or such), the LA pays Capita, school becomes an Academy, mid Capita year, the LA gets refunded, pro-rata, the Academy gets charged, pro-rata, the LA would ideally, pass on the refund to the Academy.

Edited June 16, 2011 by matt40k

[GeneralDreedle]

"Just to confirm, the school pays the LA (or such), the LA pays Capita, school becomes an Academy, mid Capita year, the LA gets refunded, pro-rata, the Academy gets charged, pro-rata, the LA would ideally, pass on the refund to the Academy"

 

Ah, but the BSF contracts are written "You pay £Xmillion every year for 5 years or we shoot your dog" (Something like that, I don't know the financial details).

 

So how is "passing on" the saving ever going to happen? Not just for part of a year, but possibly for a decade?

[matt40k]

Again, depends on the contract, if it's written well, you're locked in. Even if your school changes it's name or school type. If it isn't, it's your get of jail free card. I would image it'll get transferred across, plus I doubt it's something you really want to be worrying about, well not unless you get to review your contracts say 6months down the line.

[GeneralDreedle]

I doubt it's something you really want to be worrying about

I'm a bit vague on this. What level of public money being squandered is worth worrying about?

 

50K? 100K?

[creese]

I'm a bit vague on this. What level of public money being squandered is worth worrying about?

 

50K? 100K?

 

Good question.

 

Should a Headteacher be given free reign to spend a pot of money? I have just heard of one, a new academy, who has gone out and bought a finance package. This program needs exclusive use of a dual core server to run it. Oh, it's a primary.

[matt40k]

I'm a bit vague on this. What level of public money being squandered is worth worrying about?

 

50K? 100K?

 

You don't want to be worrying about changing everything all at once, like Bromcom said, you'll be busy with 1001 things and all these new legal requirements to be make a good decision about IT contracts. Thus the idea of a cooling off period otherwise your going to be forced to make a rash decision.

 

Personally, they would have been selected because they were the best and I would image not many suppliers would want to waste more money reapply for a contract that was previous ended early. At least they won't be offered as good a deal as previously.... IMHO anyway.

[localzuk]

Good question.

 

Should a Headteacher be given free reign to spend a pot of money? I have just heard of one, a new academy, who has gone out and bought a finance package. This program needs exclusive use of a dual core server to run it. Oh, it's a primary.

 

I can't see a big issue with that. If it improves finance systems in the school, it seems like a good purchase. Personally, I think we should've bought into Corero at our school, but its licence is huge and we weren't willing to drop such a large change on our finance officer so suddenly. Instead, we're sticking with FMS until we know more in the future.

 

From one point of view, £10k could be seen as a small amount, when compared with the problems changing so suddenly can cause.

 

A 6 - 12 month 'cooling off' period would've been idea I think!

[creese]

I can't see a big issue with that. If it improves finance systems in the school, it seems like a good purchase. Personally, I think we should've bought into Corero at our school, but its licence is huge and we weren't willing to drop such a large change on our finance officer so suddenly. Instead, we're sticking with FMS until we know more in the future.

 

From one point of view, £10k could be seen as a small amount, when compared with the problems changing so suddenly can cause.

 

A 6 - 12 month 'cooling off' period would've been idea I think!

 

Really!!, giving lots of money to someone, to pass on to someone else who knocks on their door, sells them something which they later discover forces them to buy expensive equipment to be able to use it?

 

What's your address, I have some nice shiny stuff for sale.

 

Next thing, they'll be out buying a Lamborghini as a school bus.

Edited June 16, 2011 by creese

[GeneralDreedle]

You don't want to be worrying about changing everything all at once, like Bromcom said, you'll be busy with 1001 things and all these new legal requirements to be make a good decision about IT contracts. Thus the idea of a cooling off period otherwise your going to be forced to make a rash decision.

 

It's not about a decision, there's no decision allowed. It's about two conflicting contracts that don't make any sense.

1) The school has a BSF support contract for 10 years whereby a supplier (the managed service provider) is bound to supply SIMS and SIMS support, and the school is bound to pay a quarter of a million pounds of public money every year for this service.

2) The school is then told that as an Academy it must pay Capita £25K directly for SIMS and SIMS support, software and support which it cannot use because it cannot touch the servers and already has support from people who can touch the servers (the managed service provider).

[creese]

BBC News - Mistakes 'mean some academies overpaid or underpaid'

[localzuk]

Really!!, giving lots of money to someone, to pass on to someone else who knocks on their door, sells them something which they later discover forces them to buy expensive equipment to be able to use it?

 

What's your address, I have some nice shiny stuff for sale.

 

Next thing, they'll be out buying a Lamborghini as a school bus.

 

If they said what it needed up front or the school didn't bother to find out, then that's not the supplier's fault. If someone talks about buying a system here, we make sure that we know everything we'd need!

[creese]

If they said what it needed up front or the school didn't bother to find out, then that's not the supplier's fault. If someone talks about buying a system here, we make sure that we know everything we'd need!

 

You've grasped the big issue then. Of course it's the Head's fault. My point being, should people like this be entrusted with this sort of money.

 

I'm not sure where the supplier comes into it, he/she is doing what they are paid for.

[localzuk]

You've grasped the big issue then. Of course it's the Head's fault. My point being, should people like this be entrusted with this sort of money.

 

I'm not sure where the supplier comes into it, he/she is doing what they are paid for.

 

No individual in a school should be authorised to spend money alone - there are rules regarding auditing and proper financial procedures. If that school is allowing the head to just buy things without someone else overseeing it, then someone needs to bring this up with the governors. For example here, most expenditure goes via 4 people - the budget holder who wants to buy stuff, then the head authorises the purchase, then the order is placed, and finally the supplier is paid and 2 people sign the cheque sent to them - and those 2 people aren't the head/budget holder.

[creese]

I'm glad we agree.