[sims] Academies, 'new' SIMS licenses and the EU concept of 'Exhaustion rights'

[Oops_my_bad]

We went with corero for our finance system when we became an academy.

 

Seems ok so far and is totally SQL server based.

 

SIMS/FMS is also totally SQL server based We looked at corerro too, it was great for everyday finance/reporting (the e-procurement rocked my socks!) but we would still be doing a lot of faffing around between SIMS <-> FMS <-> Carero resource just to do personnel, and given 80%+ of our budget is on staffing costs, just didnt seem worth the move.

 

As a minimum given the sheer amount of money capita must be making from the academies sector right now, FMS should have a long overdue bomb up its backside. I hardly call making a few changes to VAT cost centre chargeback and few new reports as "significant changes"!

 

C'mon Capita, sort it out!

[localzuk]

SIMS/FMS is also totally SQL server based We looked at corerro too, it was great for everyday finance/reporting (the e-procurement rocked my socks!) but we would still be doing a lot of faffing around between SIMS <-> FMS <-> Carero resource just to do personnel, and given 80%+ of our budget is on staffing costs, just didnt seem worth the move.

 

As a minimum given the sheer amount of money capita must be making from the academies sector right now, FMS should have a long overdue bomb up its backside. I hardly call making a few changes to VAT cost centre chargeback and few new reports as "significant changes"!

 

C'mon Capita, sort it out!

 

Not sure why you're using both Corero and FMS? Why wouldn't you simply use Corero and SIMS, missing FMS out?

[Oops_my_bad]

Not sure why you're using both Corero and FMS? Why wouldn't you simply use Corero and SIMS, missing FMS out?

 

IIRC, we still needed the personnel link between P7 & FMS to generate salary reports... not sure why, some financy reason I guess :/

[zag]

Doesn't FMS still need all the database drivers for dbase or something like that? Or is that another part of Sims?

 

We did look at FMS but settled on corero in the end. Its worked flawlessly since its been installed so I'm pretty impressed so far.

[matt40k]

FMS still uses Crystal\Delphi\BDE, so yes, nightmare. It wouldn't be hard for Corero to integrate with SIMS for generate salaries.

[EdWhittaker]

Re having to re-licence when moving to academy status.

Consider this analogy: Many car parks now ban transferring of parking tickets and some require you to enter your reg number into the machine when getting your ticket expressly to stop this. Now if I pay for three hours parking, what difference does it make if my car occupies the space or someone else's car is in there? Say a space is booked and paid for for three hours. If I only need it for, say, one hour, why not let another car use the space for the remaining two hours? Answer: because they want to squeeze more money out of you, that's why.

 

I can't help feeling that there is a large element of this in the requirement to re-licence MIS systems. For our part, many of our customers have changed to academy status and we don't require them to re-licence. Several have moved to new builds and this requires us to modify our system significantly to fit with their new circumstances. But we don't charge extra for this, we do it for the sake of good customer relations. I think part of the difference is that we don't have lots of greedy shareholders demanding ever increasing dividends on their investments... oh, sorry just accidentally jumped on my soap box there. I'll get off now.

Edited March 29, 2011 by EdWhittaker
re-wording

[featured_spectre]

Perhaps we are looking at the wrong angle. Remember what happened to MS when they shipped everything with Internet Explorer, but then got done for anti-competitiveness. Perhaps that's what's happening here? Maybe because Capita is the market leader, they have to do this to prevent the other companies suing over anti-competitiveness? Just throwing that one out there as we are all quick to bash them for extortion (myself included) but there could well be this angle? Correct me if I am wrong please PhilNeal/Capita

[matt40k]

I think it's a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario. On the one had you've got Bromcom saying Capita over charges (http://www.bromcom.com/press/pdf/071209_Press.pdf) but you know if Capita went, hey schools £250 for each module per year, they would be part of the many MIS suppliers moan about the charging too little and putting them out of business.

 

Not actually sure why Bromcom published that document, are they hoping schools would spend the money on WebFolder?

 

Personally re-licensing is stupid, Microsoft doesn't do it, hundreds of others don't. It's my money and other tax payers money that's being wasted paying for something AGAIN for no real reason. I've yet to see any actual Academy only new features appear, we're getting the end of year 1 for some Academies who have used SIMS and FMS "out-of-the-box", so they've paid ££££££ for what, that good feeling that they are legal? Maybe they'll get something nice off Capita soon.

 

Phil if your reading this how about a nice card celebrating the opening of the new Academy for each one, ideally with a nice cheque, failing that a few free modules?

[vikpaw]

I think it's a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario.

 

Well if damned either way, i'm sure many would rather they "don't", and were damned by other companies - it's not like it doesn't happen now anyway.

[matt40k]

Problem is if they do say, hey you can transfer, the LA got to agree and more importantly, are they going to refund the existing (new style) Academies? I feel trying to extract money from Capita is like blood from a stone lol

[Lipjam]

In relation to this issue of Capita's demand for Academies to re-licence. This is not just a matter of abstract money. This relicensing cost, which Capita is forcing on schools, has a direct effect on classroom provision. I read from the Capita spokesman on this thread that the Government has provided £25k for relicensing. It seems a bit of a coincidence that the cost of relicensing SIMS/FMS is £25k (now reduced with so called discounts). This is a cynical attempt to cash in the so called Academy gravy train. Capita probably saw the millions been wasted through BSF on architects, contractors and consultants and thought to themselves: Where's our slice of the pie?

 

Schools get nothing for their outlay! This is purely money for old rope. Capita are holding schools to ransom, obtaining money with menace. Capita SERCO, G4S are sewing up the public sector contracts and it is not for the benefit of this country (Dispatches - Britain's Secret Fat Cats - Channel 4).

 

The reality is that Capita is charging because it thinks it will get away with it. It is depending on schools' apathy and fear at the thought of changing systems. This nonsense about anti-competitiveness (and it is total nonsense) is a smokescreen. I would urge school to liaise with each other and their LEAs and make a concerted to resist this. We have already done and have already secured discounts but that is not good enough. Now capita have said they will provide training in an effort to justify the charges. I would also urge those thinking of the Academy route to contact the Academies Trust and let them know what is happening. If schools make a big enough stink about this then maybe something will happen but it won't if you don't!

 

Our society is changing and so is our education system. We have to make a stand and let it be known who is driving this change. Is it the educationalists or is it the private sector? If it is the latter then our children will suffer. We have a responsibility to do something about it. I'll finish with the Edmund Burke quote: "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

If you think I am exaggerating have a look at this:

[matt40k]

the cost of relicensing SIMS/FMS is £25k

 

Only problem I have with your statement.

[vikpaw]

So what you're saying is, that Capita isn't the biggest fattest cat? If not, i'm moving to Serco, i wont be outdone!

[featured_spectre]

was going to say, relicensing is around £14k for establishments with 2000 pupils +, so unless they are mega sites for whole cities, its unlikely they will have more than that!

[Lipjam]

Original quote from Capita that came to our school (Based on 11-12K approx. pupils on roll... I do not want to give the exact size):

SUBTOTAL £24,062.00

VAT@ 20.0% £4,812.40

ORDER TOTAL £28,874.40

 

Then with all these so called discounts it is now about £11k with 2 days training. Excuse me being cynical but if someone is going to screw you it does help to think you're getting a bargain screw!!

[CAM]

Would it be legal to rent your old licence from the LA? Say you have an LA licence, school goes academy then says to the LA "Hey, we want your SIMS Support and thus your licence" and pay just as much as previous years. LA still owns the licence but you use it because you are getting support for SIMS from the LA and paying them the same sub as before. Ransom dodged, business as usual?

[HarryMonkey]

Original quote from Capita that came to our school (Based on 11-12K approx. pupils on roll... I do not want to give the exact size)

 

Jeez, 12,000 students ... that's one helluva school!

[localzuk]

Original quote from Capita that came to our school (Based on 11-12K approx. pupils on roll... I do not want to give the exact size):

SUBTOTAL £24,062.00

VAT@ 20.0% £4,812.40

ORDER TOTAL £28,874.40

 

Then with all these so called discounts it is now about £11k with 2 days training. Excuse me being cynical but if someone is going to screw you it does help to think you're getting a bargain screw!!

 

11k pupils?! What type of school are you!?

[featured_spectre]

11K pupils = 5-15 modern high schools. That is so ridiculous it is ridonculous (made up word we use on Xbox Live)!

[Lipjam]

Sorry it's 1.1K-1.2K should have just put 1200 approx.

[Ecclesbury]

I think it's a dammed if you do and dammed if you don't scenario.

 

Or alternatively a "win, win" scenario for the more cynically minded!

[Banjo]

 

There are a number of reasons why we require an academy to purchase SIMS in its own right:

[*]We have had to make extensive changes to the software both in finance and originally the statutory returns. These changes have to be funded by the academy sector.

 

This bit intrigues me!

 

If the school doesn’t use FMS and uses Sage, there are very little changes to SIMS.

 

The school changes the DfE code and that’s pretty much it for new Academies.

 

Primary to Academy Quote below:

 

Total £21,990.00

 

On a slightly different note: Somebody (My guess a MIS/LP supplier) is collecting some interesting information from organisations.

 

Anyone had one of these recently?

 

I wish to make a request under the Freedom of Information act for the following information.

 

1. Who is the office in charge with commercial responsibility for your Management Information System (MIS) in use at your schools? By School MIS I mean products such as Capita SIMS, Serco CMIS, RM Integris, Pearson E1, Bromcom and Walton Samuel. Please provide his or her name, position, mailing address, email address and telephone number.

 

2. Who is the office in charge with commercial responsibility for your Pupil Management Information System used in the authority? By Authority MIS I mean products such as Capita One and Tribal Synergy. Please provide his or her name, position, mailing address, email address and telephone number.

 

3. Who is the office in charge with commercial responsibility for your Learning Platform (LP) in use at your schools? By School LP I mean products such as Moodle, Frog, and Fronter. Please provide his or her name, position, mailing address, email address and telephone number.

 

Will someone finally challenge the Capita LA annual maintenance contract as a being a new contract that should have gone through a full procurement and try to get it set aside?

[vikpaw]

That's crazy, someone who knows a little is pushing a lot.

Does listing who is responsible for your MIS fall under freedom of information act? including email / phone number?

That's badly written too, or was there a typo?

It's pretty forthright, I've seen better from data harvesters and call centres.

[Banjo]

That's crazy, someone who knows a little is pushing a lot.

Does listing who is responsible for your MIS fall under freedom of information act? including email / phone number?

That's badly written too, or was there a typo?

It's pretty forthright, I've seen better from data harvesters and call centres.

 

Apparently it all falls under FOI

[Butters]

Commercial responsibility for a learning platform? That doesn't fall under FOI as far as I'm aware.