anyone thinking of ditching the LA for internet

[oxide54]

discuss .....

 

pros / cons

options for internet connection

suppliers

options for filtering / mail services

[localzuk]

We are looking at this as part of our Academy process.

 

Pros

You actually get the speed you have specced into your school. Eg. Many RBC connections are relatively contended - so you're sharing bandwidth to the net.

Flexibility - you're not tied to do what your LA/RBC decide is best for your connection.

 

Cons

Most commercial providers are not connected to the NEN

Potentially costs more

Responsibility for filtering falls on you.

 

Suppliers - Opal, Network Flow, BT, Zen, Virgin. There are loads of them.

 

Filtering - Smoothwall, Forefront TMG's built in filtering service. Again, loads of them. Personally, I am keen on a Smoothwall box.

Mail - Loads of options. Live@Edu, Google Apps for Education, running your own mail servers. We're looking at Google Apps for Education now, after lots of research.

 

I think, overall, if your school is going to become an academy, commercial providers appear to have the edge.

[oxide54]

i saw demo for bloxx the other day, anyone played with that?

 

they had an interesting approach to youtube , where you whitelist videos.

 

heard good things about smoothwall,

 

forefront?>>???? nightmare to implement/manage full filtering oob i would think, we use it for emergency filtering in front of the LA filtering

 

 

there several reasons we want to do our own thing.

 

filtering - more control ( although i agree, on the responsibility part, main reason I haven't really considered it up to now)

cost - if the cost increases significantly is it viable.

our admin and curriculum subnets are linked via their "router" its a layer 3 switch and we have no admin access to it,

-> 1 . I'd rather administer myself.

--> 2. Its very slow at times for some stuff like PXE booting and WDS

--> 3. Its difficult to troubleshoot slow WDS when you can't admin the "router"

 

sorry to be a div ? whats NEN

[PiqueABoo]

There are no universal rules for any of this. For instance on the LA network here you get the specified speeds, you can change the bandwidth (+/- a cost of course!) and subject to where you are, the commercial connections costs can be much more expensive.

 

Having made and managed everything re. private sector Internet connections beginning in the early 90s I'd be perfectly happy with d-i-y, but I'd be equally happy not doing that because I know first hand about some of the grief you can get.

 

::wonders:: How many folk will bend the pros/cons towards d-i-y because they want to play with something new for them?

::concludes:: Probably a serious percentage, given how many techs are hooked on this week's shiny new s/w, gadgets etc.

[Edu-IT]

i saw demo for bloxx the other day, anyone played with that?

 

they had an interesting approach to youtube , where you whitelist videos.

 

heard good things about smoothwall,

 

forefront?>>???? nightmare to implement/manage full filtering oob i would think, we use it for emergency filtering in front of the LA filtering

 

 

there several reasons we want to do our own thing.

 

filtering - more control ( although i agree, on the responsibility part, main reason I haven't really considered it up to now)

cost - if the cost increases significantly is it viable.

our admin and curriculum subnets are linked via their "router" its a layer 3 switch and we have no admin access to it,

-> 1 . I'd rather administer myself.

--> 2. Its very slow at times for some stuff like PXE booting and WDS

--> 3. Its difficult to troubleshoot slow WDS when you can't admin the "router"

 

sorry to be a div ? whats NEN

NEN is The National Education Network.

 

The National Education Network

[Dos_Box]

We shall hopefully have a company who is very, very good at school internet connectivity talking about this very subject at our conf in June. I won't name names yet until they're in the bag though

[Edu-IT]

We shall hopefully have a company who is very, very good at school internet connectivity talking about this very subject at our conf in June. I won't name names yet until they're in the bag though

Hmm, wondering who this is. Can you not name them 1) regardless of whether they're at the EduConf 2) For those people who are trying to get their act together now?

 

Failing that anyone else know who this could be?

[GrumbleDook]

Don't forget the following ...

 

Firewall / security (don't just rely on the router)

Public IPs

Public DNS

Access to subscribed services (sometimes linked in with or authenticated via the RBC / LA such as Brittanica Online, EducationCity, etc)

Email Filtering (inbound, outbound and between users)

Access to VC if needed (JVCS or low-end VC for multiple users, but Skype multi-vid could be an option)

SIP Trunking for VoIP

 

Will you need to re-arrange your internal IP range? Are any VLANs used done via internal network hardware or does it go through your Router (often LA owned)?

 

Are you accredited to access certain secure local or central Govt services through your existing connection and what do you need to do if you move?

 

This is before you get into the support side of things ... how much support will you require? SLAs?

 

These are just some of the things starting to come up in the local user group looking at things in our LA.

[maniac]

We have briefly looked into moving away from our LEA for our broadband, but by the time we factored in all the added benefits we get like web filtering thrown in for free, e-mail SPAM filtering thrown in for free, router and firewall, support for it all as well, and the fact we can easily create network links between other schools we are associated with in order to share systems and resources should we want to, we decided (for now at least) we are better where we are. The Kent Public Service Network, which is what our broadband is part of, is generally very reliable, very fast and very flexible and I have few complaints. Edited March 11, 2011 by maniac

[edutech4schools]

I found RM have very good prices. 8k for fiber 4k for copper and 2k for ADSL+ and they come with firewall + proxy stuff. Filtering is about £150 py

[tom_newton]

Generally we've seen people able to make cost savings - even sometimes in areas which are traditionally hard to provide internet to. Also flexibility is key - often people i have met are getting shorter contracts, giving more options going forward. You do have to be dilligent - the main thing to ensure is do you have time to make all the procurements and do al the setup - so it is worth talking to suppliers, especially ISPs about lead-time very early on.

 

We Smoothwall folk have helped organise netman meetings to get people in the same area together to discuss these options (we can supply sandwiches, some organisation and a focal point for discussions!) - if anyone's interested in doing this where they are, PM/mail/phone.

[jcollings]

Well worth talking to Robin Williams at LUNS – Lancaster University Network Services

 

They used to have the CLEO contract and are excellent people to deal with and highly skilled. Whenever we had issues once we got passed the CLEO people and talked directly to LUNS it was always resolved.

 

I've just had a very good quote from them to supply us with an unfiltered 100Mb fibre service with some public IP space and it was excellent.

Edited March 12, 2011 by jcollings

[oxide54]

::wonders:: How many folk will bend the pros/cons towards d-i-y because they want to play with something new for them?

::concludes:: Probably a serious percentage, given how many techs are hooked on this week's shiny new s/w, gadgets etc.

 

not quite, i'd rather not have to wait for a CCR to be approved by the LA then filter through 2 subcontractors, weeks...... when i worked in industry we used to ring the ISP and they would do it while you were on the phone.

[localzuk]

Firewall/router, IP Addresses, Public DNS - all very easy to manage. I've not come across an ISP that doesn't offer a router, and if you do the filtering right, your filtering solution is often a firewall solution also. Public IPs aren't an issue either, as I've not come across a leased line provider who doesn't offer them.

 

Email filtering would be part of your email solution, so not necessarily linked to your internet connection.

[tom_newton]

Well worth talking to Robin Williams at LUNS – Lancaster University Network Services

 

They used to have the CLEO contract and are excellent people to deal with and highly skilled. Whenever we had issues once we got passed the CLEO people and talked directly to LUNS it was always resolved.

 

I've just had a very good quote from them to supply us with an unfiltered 100Mb fibre service with some public IP space and it was excellent.

 

Have met a couple of their chaps, and was generally impressed by their technical accumen at least Nice building they're in too. And decent coffee.

[localzuk]

Have met a couple of their chaps, and was generally impressed by their technical accumen at least Nice building they're in too. And decent coffee.

 

Agreed on all counts. There's a few of their number who appear on here from time to time too.

[PiqueABoo]

not quite, i'd rather not have to wait for a CCR to be approved by the LA then filter through 2 subcontractors, weeks...... when i worked in industry we used to ring the ISP and they would do it while you were on the phone.

 

"Not quite" in your limited view, my limited view is different and I see "absolutely, definitely", but again there are no universal rules for any of this. For instance, when I worked in the real-world I didn't have to ring the ISP very often because they didn't do anything for me besides provide raw connectivity.. was just calls to complain about outages, transit problems to corner of the world etc., none of which anyone with a phone answering support job would fix in 5 mins.

 

---

 

 

With my tax-payers hat on and very little inbuilt socialist, the simplistic manner in which this topic keeps getting raised is irksome. In a perfect world the Gov[tm] would ensure all schools get connectivity (+preferably flexible web-filtering) same way they get electricity i.e. at pretty much the same unit price everywhere. In the imperfect real world I have no problem whatsoever with some schools effectively subsidising connections for others that would never be able to afford the real cost for a 1/2 decent rural connection. If enough Secondary, up-their-backsides Academies et al abandon their LA/RBCs/Whatever then I guess we'll see some smaller schools (Primaries etc. which might be feeders for a Secondary that went their own independent way) drop off the net, at least for usable teaching/learning purposes.

 

Don't know what it's like anywhere else, but I guess the main difficulty is that some LAs/RBCs/Whatever might be genuinely terrible, nothing at all like that 100% perfect service you provide your users, or have several features you might not want at all bundled into an all-or-nothing deal? So what's wrong with sorting that out collectively instead of this fragmented every-school-for-themselves idiocy?

 

Basically if this kind of issue does apply to your corner of the world (seems to me it could apply to lots) and no one is thinking about this specific aspect very hard, then you are not providing the 'value' I expect for my meagre share of the money paid for a public service.

 

 

PS:

 

We shall hopefully have a company who is very, very good at school internet connectivity talking about this very subject

 

Is Edugeek pretty much resigned to endorsing and being an explicit marketing tool for such companies (who will happily help bring about the above scenarios) then?

 

Edited March 12, 2011 by PiqueABoo

[irsprint84]

I think its all about choice and choice should have happened many years ago. I ll do the opersite and sound capitalist, all parties came with a price and I chose the best price and connection for the school. I will come of harsh but I do the best for my school not others the government and not the council should look at the problems with primary schools and hard to reach schools thats not my job.

[tom_newton]

 

 

With my tax-payers hat on and very little inbuilt socialist, the simplistic manner in which this topic keeps getting raised is irksome. In a perfect world the Gov[tm] would ensure all schools get connectivity (+preferably flexible web-filtering) same way they get electricity i.e. at pretty much the same unit price everywhere. In the imperfect real world I have no problem whatsoever with some schools effectively subsidising connections for others that would never be able to afford the real cost for a 1/2 decent rural connection.

 

First off - apologies for selective quoting. Just wanted to explore the "city schools subsidise their rural counterparts" and "if everyone went their own way, some schools would have unusable internet connectivity" points (I hope these are an adequate precis of your rant).

 

Anyhow... I am thinking that, at least in many areas, these may be a bit mythical now. I know it was largely true 5 years ago, but perhaps not now.

 

What I see is that "large scale" roll-outs across LAs means one provider, which rarely does "fit all". In this case, schools which are already in reach of that provider end up paying more so that schools out of that providers' reach can receive connectivity from the same company. In many of these cases if 3 providers who all "naturally" cover the entire area could be used, the total cost would be less. I don't think there really are "economies of scale" in this sort of provision.

 

I do accept that some schools will get a worse deal - perhaps rural outliers in predominantly urban areas will be worst hit overall. On the other hand, this will encourage new modes of delivery - the company mentioned as possibly coming to the conference, for example can deliver wireless at a good pricepoint to a very limited number of schools. This would never fly if they had to do it on a much larger area, but i'd hazard that those schools who are now freed to take this up will benefit. Similarly FTTC, a largely consumer focused tech will allow other schools to take up connectivity where appropriate.

 

Having said that, we (Smoothwall) are working with one LA who are predominantly rural - and unsurprisingly they seem to be heading for a fairly cohesive strategy, perhaps because each school percieves individual connectivity to be harder than the norm to provide, but also in large part because the LA in question is taking pains to adapt to the other bits the schools do and don't want.

 

This does show that in some cases where a "group buying" situation can prove its worth, it will succeed. Unfortunately there WILL be some losers, in terms of the (ans im thinking relatively few) schools whos connectivity really was subsidised (as opposed to subsidising a connection that you wouldnt have bought in an open market), but with time, this will work itself out. Meanwhile I hope larger/luckier schools ISPs, and those on the periphery like ourselves will do our best to help anyone who does end up losing out.

 

This isn't an "anti-LA/RBC" rant (indeed its more of a ramble ) rather trying to put a different slant on the situation.

[featured_spectre]

Tom, have smoothwall thought about being an ISP themselves so they can tie in all equipment together???

[plexer]

I do know from the discussions that I've been part of with Norfolk that I've heard figures of £500,000 to connect a rural primary by fibre as it was well beyond the range of copper adsl.

 

Ben

[featured_spectre]

wow....seriously??

[plexer]

Yup so it didn't get done.

 

However there is government funding coming and Norfolk County Council is working with them and businesses to eventually provide high speed internet access.

 

Ben

[GrumbleDook]

@Tom: In counties which have a hard density of urban settlements but also have areas of rural deprivation then you will still find it costs a bundle for some schools and dirt cheap for others. This is the same whether you buy into the RBC/LA or other suppliers. This is why BDUK is working with councils, communities, etc to try and get something done. The installation costs of fibre in Norfolk is not surprising ... having seen costs for rural areas in Derbyshire, Lincolnshire and Northamptonshire ... even if the Govt is not interested in supporting RBCs / NEN then I wish that they would at least pay for all schools to have decent lines to give a consistent chance of having a decent connection (and other services) from *any* supplier.

 

It is likely to create a two-teir system of those that are in easy to provide areas and those who aren't and have to pay for improvements to be made (unless it can be funded by someone else). Even if it does create new models of deliver then that is good.

 

One of the problems is that contracts and agreements with more than one supplier (whether it is 2 or 3 for broadband, others for filtering, email, webhosting, etc) can be expensive to manage so it can be cheaper for schools to do their own thing in this case, but it still leaves some out on their own. No solution is going to fit everyone perfectly ... and I just hope that in the years to come when people wonder why we have schools struggling for money and having to make a choice between including filtering with their connection or not, when they are on a bare-bones connection with poor speeds (in comparison with same size schools 5 miles away) and it is affecting what the school can do ...

 

I'm trying not to have an anti-anti-LA rant ... but LAs will not be able to do things collectively for schools in the future across a number of areas and so schools *have* to work together ... not leave each other to fend for themselves purely for the betterment of themselves. If you can work in clusters then brilliant, in groups of clusters or areas then all the better ... if you can do it across a whole LA / County then wonderful.

[localzuk]

The problem is, as an individual school - it is not our responsibility to provide services to other schools. It is not our place to worry about the funding of other schools. If we did that, we'd never get anything done, as we'd spend half our budget subsidising other schools. At a school level, it is our responsibility to get best value for our pupils, for our community.

 

What happens when you realise that many of these primaries that are miles out in the middle of nowhere actually only have 12 pupils, yet get 5 times the funding per pupil as your school. Is that fair?

 

Collective thinking is only as good as the lowest common denominator - why should those who can get good deals be forced to lower the quality of their service?

 

However, schools thinking independently doesn't mean they won't help other schools. In our town, for example, I don't see why our school couldn't have leased lines installed to the first schools with us becoming their ISP. It all depends how our LEA goes though, and how many wish to become academies.