Johan Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) We have 1800 students, 750 computers & 300 members of staff. We are blessed with Capita coming on site next month to help us move our SIMS databases onto a new server, with a fresh setup. Not wanting to waste this opportunity, I want to buy a new server to run it on, to ensure that SIMS runs as quickly as we can reasonably make it (the reality is it'll have to be an Ebay special). Capita have advised 2008 64bit enterprise for the OS, but am unsure how much server power will be needed. Are their any IT geeks from large schools who already have a good setup that runs well? Our current server spends most of the day at 90-100% CPU usage. Kind regards, John. Edited January 31, 2011 by ChrisH
glennda Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) If you have to go ebay you could get something like this HP ProLiant DL380 G5 2 x Quad-Core 8Gb 2U Rack Server on eBay (end time 04-Feb-11 12:11:03 GMT) But all depends on your budget - if you could give us more detail into what you have now would be great Mines Currently a VM but have 4 cpu's and 10gb of ram. Running Server 2k8 R2 64bit Edited January 31, 2011 by glennda
Johan Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 We have a 2 & dual core @ 2.992 Ghz, with 16 GB ram. RAID 6 HDD (the HDDs are slow and rubbish though). Realistically we can afford 2-3k, but could go beyond that if needed/justified. I really just want to get it right!
glennda Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 We have a 2 & dual core @ 2.992 Ghz, with 16 GB ram. RAID 6 HDD (the HDDs are slow and rubbish though). Realistically we can afford 2-3k, but could go beyond that if needed/justified. I really just want to get it right! What make/model - as if you are trying to do on the cheap you may be able to reuse the Ram and maybe replace in a year or two as that will save a fortune 1
Johan Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 Dell 1900, not sure on memory itself. It currently is running VMware ESXi (which makes it tricker to find details). Ideally, a Dell server with a remaining warranty. The thing that I am really unsure on is how much power will I need given the size of the school?
adhutton Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Someone from ITSS recently sent me this specifications sheet for SIMS (attached), it may help. Andrew sims_hardware_spec.pdf 1
Johan Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 That is extremely useful, thank you. Processing power is surprisingly high, will focus on this! Kind regards, John.
DMcCoy Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 If you spec two physical CPUs and lots of RAM you had better use the full version of SQL rather than express, otherwise quite a lot of hardware is going to be sat there doing nothing.
glennda Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 Dell 1900, not sure on memory itself. It currently is running VMware ESXi (which makes it tricker to find details). Ideally, a Dell server with a remaining warranty. The thing that I am really unsure on is how much power will I need given the size of the school? Ah okay - i'm guessing the VM doesn't have all the resources the physical box has? Also how big is the sims database - as i would try and give it alot more ram then the size of the database. So the Sql process can cache the entire database which will make it a lot faster. I don't have much experience with the Dell Hardware as I am an HP man but something with either Dual Quad Core and probably double the size of the sims database size in Ram - This means the entire database can sit in the Ram which makes the queries from the client alot faster rather then having to read from the disks. Plus as Dmcoy says you will need the full sql License - around £75 on a schools agreement plus cals
Johan Posted January 31, 2011 Author Posted January 31, 2011 Thank you. We already have full SQL, and suspect you are right about the RAM/CPU. The DB is 5GB, so suspect 8 x 3ghz core & 16gb RAM should do well! Kind regards, John.
vikpaw Posted January 31, 2011 Posted January 31, 2011 (edited) Thank you. We already have full SQL, and suspect you are right about the RAM/CPU. The DB is 5GB, so suspect 8 x 3ghz core & 16gb RAM should do well! Kind regards, John. Sounds good, though even with the old server and lower spec', i'm surprised you were constantly at 90%. That's some serious usage. Will you virtualise on this new server too? Makes sense to, and get a nice snapshot, once they've commissioned it, so that you can fall back. I'd go with Windows 2008 R2, since it's supported now, and saves you needing to update later on. Haven't spec'ed servers for a while, but can't you get something new for 3k, especially if you can up the budget a little. May as well get something decent up front, and if you're virtualising, you can maybe put another service on there too. BTW: 1500 students, 200+ staff, probably 500 PCs. IBM blade dual quad core, vmware sphere, giving 4 cpu, 10gb RAM. Win2k3, SQL 2k8 at the moment. It can sometimes be a bit laggy/slow, but resources are fine. Edited January 31, 2011 by vikpaw addition
Johan Posted February 1, 2011 Author Posted February 1, 2011 We use VMware ESXi (yes the free version) extensively. However, given the performance issues we have, I want to make use of all 8 cores for the one virtual server. I would love to keep it on a VM platform, but the enterprise plus version is seemingly £600 a physical CPU & from what I understand, is what I would need! Interestingly we did see an IBM blade, totalling about 20 CPUs and 40gb of RAM & inbuilt cisco switch. Whilst an amasing beast, I decided that they would probably be an extra level of complexity to learn & configure before Capita arrive next month.
Butuz Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Realistically all you need is 2 x Quad Core CPUs, 16GB of RAM (so you can fit your entire SIMS DB in RAM) and 4 x 10/15,000RPM SAS drives in RAID 10. Run Win2008 64 bit. That should be fine. Butuz
3s-gtech Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 I've never seen the SIMS server take up that much processing power really. We have an HP server with 4GB of RAM (32bit OS) and a quad core 2GHz Xeon, so well under their recommended now. We only have 75 or so concurrent users at most though. Running SQL Express 2008. CPU useage is never above 25%, and tends to stay less than 10%. I know Express doesn't make the most of the hardware, but the workstation performance is pretty good. I'm more tempted to put SSDs in it than upgrade outright, though it has another 4GB of RAM waiting for a 64bit OS upgrade.
vikpaw Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) We use VMware ESXi (yes the free version) extensively. However, given the performance issues we have, I want to make use of all 8 cores for the one virtual server. I would love to keep it on a VM platform, but the enterprise plus version is seemingly £600 a physical CPU & from what I understand, is what I would need! Interestingly we did see an IBM blade, totalling about 20 CPUs and 40gb of RAM & inbuilt cisco switch. Whilst an amasing beast, I decided that they would probably be an extra level of complexity to learn & configure before Capita arrive next month. Worth evaluating exactly what features you need, though. We have Advanced version and though we don't gain much because we've saturated our blades, we still get better performance, snapshotting (a god send) and a degree of failover. It's not particularly fault tolerant but could be in the future. It's worth looking in to VMWare Essentials which is very cheap, but does limit you somewhat, on procs, cores etc, but you don't need to have 8 virtual cores, trust me, lots of people run on much less than that. I spoke to a guy at BETT that is running very happily with Essentials. There is also Essentials Plus, which has extra features. Look into it. The biggest thing to bear in mind is that it's fixed to 3 servers only, as it's aimed at SMBs. If you need to expand more than that, you would have to buy a regular licence, and either keep the 3 Essential systems as they are stand alone in their own management group or relicence them under whichever package you choose. VMware Online Store - Buy VMware vSphere Essentials Bundle for Server Consolidation VMware Online Store - Buy VMware vSphere Essentials Bundle for Server Consolidation 1st link should be for Essentials, 2nd for Essentials Plus. Also, it's only 1 kit each, so you can't keep buying them. This is all based on talks with our rep' last April time. Edited February 1, 2011 by vikpaw clarity
GREED Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 On the same topic (and I dare say may come in for some criticism somewhere along the way), I am about to blog this for reference, but I came up with this list over time fot things to consider when upgrading SIMS server, not just the new hardware. It might jogs some memories or be of use, I hope it is here: - What is the current server technology (Server 2003 for example), and can this be upgraded during the process (Ensuring any version chosen is supported)? - What is the current server technology (SQL Server 2003 for example), and can this be upgraded during the process (Ensuring any version chosen is supported, and proper migration paths are taken)? - What hardware will the new server use (Memory, Processor, Architecture), can this be maximised cost effectively? - Will the organisation be implementing additional features that will need additional storage or network connectivity (SLG/VLE for example), and can additional hardware be implemented at this stage? - Can the setup be made more efficient by changing the location of the databases to a RAID 0 or 0+1 drive set (striped drives for faster read/write access), ensured redundancy (RAID 1 or 0+1) and ensured minimal other services run on the server? - Can the physical server network connections be made any more efficient, or can the bandwidth be increased (teaming network card, faster switches, dedicated switches). - How do I backup the database, perhaps using SSMS (SQL Server Management Studio) maintenance plans and backup up that backup? - Can I implement a redundant SIMS server to take over in case of failure (costly, but if you are backing up every night, and keeping the redundant server up to date, you only need to restore the database to the new drive - Where do the client PCs point currently (connect.ini) in terms of server; can a more robust solution be implemented during this transition (implementation of a redirect connect.ini file to point to a single, central connect.ini would also cater for switching between main and redundant SIMS servers if in place, by just changing the central connect.ini details)? - What other information points to the current server (sims.ini) that would need to change (Implementation of a standard sim.ini copied out across the network)? - What additional services NEED to run on the SIMS server, can any be moved away? - Remember to also move the SIMS Setups folder, Doc Storage folder, SNOVA folder and other folders to the shared network drive location, if being moved also. All of this is to reduce future upgrades where possible, if possible.
Sivadam Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) Now you need to reserve space for Discover and CHQ (whatever that is)! OH! Maybe InTouch as well!? Edited February 1, 2011 by Sivadam
GREED Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Now you need to reserve space for Discover and CHQ (whatever that is)! OH! Maybe InTouch as well!? Thanks, I'll add it to the polished list. These were things I found out over time, noted down but never did anything with. Sorts of things to get the SIMS (or any MIS!) up to peak performance without having to do too much intrusive work!
Butuz Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) We have an HP server with 4GB of RAM (32bit OS) and a quad core 2GHz Xeon, so well under their recommended now. We only have 75 or so concurrent users at most though. Running SQL Express 2008. CPU useage is never above 25%, and tends to stay less than 10%.. Hi 3s-gtech The reason your CPU use is never above 25% is because SQL Express edition only uses one CPU core - thus SIMS will never be able to use more than 25% cpu usage in task manager, and in fact 25% usage means SIMS is flat out and gagging for more CPUs. It also has a 1GB RAM limit so upgrading your ram from 4 to 8GB will make no difference. The best upgrade you could make would be to move from SQL Express to the Standard version thus quadrupling the amount of CPU power and memory available for SIMS to use. That should give SIMS performance a good kick up the bum even though you are already happy. Butuz Edited February 1, 2011 by Butuz 1
Nigel_Phillips Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 We are currently looking at Upgrading our SIMs server as running at 100% most of day,although we are over recommended min spec. We have sourced HP suitable server but RM have quoted for same specs at £1000 less. Does anyone have feedback on RM servers and support reliability? Nigel
3s-gtech Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 (edited) ^^Cheers, yeah that makes sense. Definitely not a good time to be investing in SQL Server here, and our SIMS support is through the LEA, but it would be nice. It doesn't hold at 25% to be fair, infrequent spikes up to that. I thought the 1GB limit was the database though, as the SQL Server instance is currently using 1.5GB. Edited February 1, 2011 by 3s-gtech
glennda Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 ^^Cheers, yeah that makes sense. Definitely not a good time to be investing in SQL Server here, and our SIMS support is through the LEA, but it would be nice. It doesn't hold at 25% to be fair, infrequent spikes up to that. I thought the 1GB limit was the database though, as the SQL Server instance is currently using 1.5GB. if you have a schools aggreement then sql is around £75 per year. Also @Nigel_phillips and other people looking at sims servers running near 100% cpu most of the day. If you have sims profiles which have the graphs on try disabling the Sims Attendance graph From what i have seen this has drasticly reduced the SQL processing as if you look at a sql process explorer you notice that every (can't remember how often it is) that the graph refreshes it causes 100% of a single CPU therefore if you have multiple cores and lots of users this slows down drastically. It is what i disabled as i moved to the VM with lots of ram but it seems to have completely stopped now using full sql. Only time its got above 75% usage was last week when they created the new academic year.
matt40k Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 if you have a schools aggreement then sql is around £75 per year. Is that a processor license? Otherwise you'll need CALs.
glennda Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Is that a processor license? Otherwise you'll need CALs. sorry i meant to go back and add that afterwards but forgot - we get a client access pack or something like that which has all the cals you need bundled in.
superfletch Posted February 1, 2011 Posted February 1, 2011 Short post this. Multi core CPU's coupled with full SQL. Go for SSD's and as much memory as you can. Personally I think SSD's and memory will make the most difference.
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