Which Network Management Software to go for...?

[Andie]

please note that the original questioner is a part-timer, like me, and would probably not have the time to suss out how to do it all on a vanilla, never mind the time to do it AND all the rest of the stuff in 12 hours a week.

And as for training - it just doesnt exist for a lot of us, especially those down at the primary/part-time level.

 

I am also Junior School, was 12 hours and now 15 hours (being a TA to all ICT classes included in these hours), sole tech support person. Minimal training, some at my own expense.

 

We were Viglen Classlink, but changed to vanilla with Learning Network Manager in the summer when we bought a new server and additional workstations. When we first put out to tender for the new stuff, training and some kind of network management software were specified as a requirement. It was amazing to read, despite all of them visiting us to discuss our requirements, the wide range of solutions provided. One company expected to cover all my training needs in an hour and didn't think any network management software was necessary, as I could do it all in AD. And the term network management software covers a whole host of options, as reading this thread would seem to indicate.

 

Would I go back to a setup like Viglen out of choice? No, because, as stated elsewhere, it is integral to the setup of the network, so you have to do everything their way and only with lots of time spent on their support line (that's putting it mildly ](*,) !). Is vanilla easy to use? No, but Edugeek is making it a bit more bearable. Learning Network Manager? Allows me to manage users easier, including adding users in bulk if I need it. Software is deployed with Ghost images. (It's a lot more than that I know, but that's the main bit I use). LNM sits on top of a vanilla setup and can be removed if I don't want it anymore. Like other software that is around.

 

Phan, hang on in there! The going is tough, but you are only doing your best under difficult circumstances. I am constantly feeling out of my depth at the moment. Choose something that will help YOU for YOUR needs, but try and avoid tying yourself down to something you can't get rid of if you need or want to. Be prepared to make mistakes and don't feel guilty when you do. Primary techies are somehow expected to be all things tech support rolled into one on part-time hours and lower pay.

 

And you won't be the first person in a school to spend money on a piece of software only to find out it doesn't do what it says on the tin!!

[phantomphan]

Thanks to all for your replies

 

Having read these and done further research, I am coming round to the idea of a Vanilla setup!!

 

I installed LanView 3 last week and love it. It has many of the features of expensive NMS but without the expense!

 

I am now looking into MSIs and remote (from the server that is) software deployment. This I understand is fairly easy with w2k3, but to be honest is baffling me :? Do I need to install something onto the workstations first - such as 'Support Tools'?

 

Also what is Microsoft Management Console and should I have it?

 

I need to look again at this 'Learning Network Manager'.

 

So many questions and not enough time 8O

 

And sorry if this should be a new thread!!

 

Phan

[amyr]

I'm currently working with a CC3 network and whilst I have my dislikes about it, most of the time i get on ok with it. Its easy to understand, easy to manage (so long as you are prepared to read the manual that comes with it) and just about anybody could manage network - it really is that easy.

You don't have to go with RM's look - you can remove RM Explorer 2, change the desktop backgrounds, change the logon picture; and pushing out packages is a doddle - the only problem is when you realise there's not enough space left on the hard disk for it to install as it partitions your hard disk in half (for managed mode/local mode).

I have previously worked with vanilla builds (in fact i set up about 6 different schools with vanilla builds) and to be honest, i find managing the rm one much easier as its easier to set restrictions/program sets/create new profiles etc etc.

The only thing i don't like about rm is that when you do get a problem it can be quite hard to fix and also when packaging software you have to have a clean build for it.

but all in all its much easier to manage. if you can wait til november they are bringing out cc4 which will support cross-platform xp/vista, and some of the management tools will be tweaked so that they are much more stable (or so i was told on wednesday by my account manager at rm).

hope this is of some help to you. amy

[Mr_T]

I use Ranger. It wouldnt be an issue for me to go vanilla but I think ranger is a great middle road between CC3 and vanilla it doesnt cost anywhere near as much as CC3. Ranger Tends to make many things that little bit quicker.

But to be honest I rarely touch Ranger anymore now its been configured other than creating user acounts and spying on kids.

 

 

I have seen script logic used in Salford that looked a nice soloution too but they deploy it from the LEA. Its quite cheap too about 6pounds a licence but that was a few years ago.

[daveyboy]

We are about to buy LanSchool and heres why: -

 

Its simple to use. Why do we need all the fancy features (that confuse first time users - and take ages to learn) when our networks do most of these things already?

 

 

 

BTW - Can we move the school manager / support staff stuff to another thread?

[farmerste]

My school networks are set up like this

 

winsuite( great 'user add' to active directory program )

 

active directory for user policies ( its not that hard honestly)

 

fortresgrand central contol and cleanslate- stops machines from getting messed up

 

I use local default user profiles ( this is where the work is ) rather than network profiles/desktops.

 

the main work saving is to have lots of computers built to the same spec so that images deploy well, and to make sure all software is bought with a site licence so that it can be installed on all computers.

 

i believe that the shared computer toolkit from microsoft is almost as good as cleanslate, but i intend to do some testing soon.

 

i also am going to try and test the universal imaging utility software to see if this can overcome problems with image deployment across differing hardware on machines.

 

i dont use .msi files unless i cant avoid it, and i usually roll out 2 or 3 images (ghost) per year to desktops. I don't try and do something from a server if it can be done from a workstation, i get off my backside and get on with it.

 

sorry if i sound smug, but after working in various places, i think i have a solid network setup.

[Mr_T]

My school networks are set up like this

 

winsuite( great 'user add' to active directory program )

 

active directory for user policies ( its not that hard honestly)

 

fortresgrand central contol and cleanslate- stops machines from getting messed up

 

I use local default user profiles ( this is where the work is ) rather than network profiles/desktops.

 

the main work saving is to have lots of computers built to the same spec so that images deploy well, and to make sure all software is bought with a site licence so that it can be installed on all computers.

 

i believe that the shared computer toolkit from microsoft is almost as good as cleanslate, but i intend to do some testing soon.

 

i also am going to try and test the universal imaging utility software to see if this can overcome problems with image deployment across differing hardware on machines.

 

i dont use .msi files unless i cant avoid it, and i usually roll out 2 or 3 images (ghost) per year to desktops. I don't try and do something from a server if it can be done from a workstation, i get off my backside and get on with it.

 

sorry if i sound smug, but after working in various places, i think i have a solid network setup.

 

I use the same policy for deploying images and use local user profiles and its very stable and works a treat.

[srochford]

My school networks are set up like this

 

I use local default user profiles ( this is where the work is ) rather than network profiles/desktops.

Why not use a mandatory network profile? As you say, there's work involved in maintaining local user profiles - that's just not there if you put them on a central server. If you really don't want a mandatory profile then at least put the default profile in the netlogon share - that will then get used on each machine so if you need to make changes you make one change on the server and at next logon all users pick this up.

 

the main work saving is to have lots of computers built to the same spec so that images deploy well, and to make sure all software is bought with a site licence so that it can be installed on all computers.

 

i also am going to try and test the universal imaging utility software to see if this can overcome problems with image deployment across differing hardware on machines.

Are you using sysprep before you take the image? If you do then you ought to find that the same image will work on just about anything. We have a single image which has coped with a wide variety of motherboards over the past 4 years (earlier MBs were not properly ACPI if at all and needed a different HAL)

i dont use .msi files unless i cant avoid it, and i usually roll out 2 or 3 images (ghost) per year to desktops. I don't try and do something from a server if it can be done from a workstation, i get off my backside and get on with it.

Don't understand this at all! Why avoid MSI files? They're designed to make it easy to deploy software to as many machines as you need in a managed fashion. Not all software comes as MSIs and not all can be repackaged but I can't imagine trying to install machines without using MSIs! I'm also intrigued at the idea that you don't do the work from the server (unless you mean that you don't work at the server console but use a workstation). The idea of having to go to (say) 200 machines to do the same task is completely mad when all the machines are networked and can easily be managed through the network!

[Mr_T]

My school networks are set up like this

 

I use local default user profiles ( this is where the work is ) rather than network profiles/desktops.

Why not use a mandatory network profile? As you say, there's work involved in maintaining local user profiles - that's just not there if you put them on a central server. If you really don't want a mandatory profile then at least put the default profile in the netlogon share - that will then get used on each machine so if you need to make changes you make one change on the server and at next logon all users pick this up.

 

the main work saving is to have lots of computers built to the same spec so that images deploy well, and to make sure all software is bought with a site licence so that it can be installed on all computers.

 

i also am going to try and test the universal imaging utility software to see if this can overcome problems with image deployment across differing hardware on machines.

Are you using sysprep before you take the image? If you do then you ought to find that the same image will work on just about anything. We have a single image which has coped with a wide variety of motherboards over the past 4 years (earlier MBs were not properly ACPI if at all and needed a different HAL)

i dont use .msi files unless i cant avoid it, and i usually roll out 2 or 3 images (ghost) per year to desktops. I don't try and do something from a server if it can be done from a workstation, i get off my backside and get on with it.

Don't understand this at all! Why avoid MSI files? They're designed to make it easy to deploy software to as many machines as you need in a managed fashion. Not all software comes as MSIs and not all can be repackaged but I can't imagine trying to install machines without using MSIs! I'm also intrigued at the idea that you don't do the work from the server (unless you mean that you don't work at the server console but use a workstation). The idea of having to go to (say) 200 machines to do the same task is completely mad when all the machines are networked and can easily be managed through the network!

 

Because you re-image your machines regularly you dont need to worry about the local profiles as they will be wiped frequently.

 

MSI files are great if someone needs something then and there. But I prefer to keep as much of the install in my image. which is what i think farmerste was aluding to.

[phantomphan]

Thanks for all your input on this topic.

 

I have today ordered the RM CC3 Network. I am glad to have finally made the choice and feel confident that it is the right choice for our school.

 

RM were very competetive on price, even coming in cheaper than one of the Ranger reseller quotes.

 

Thanks again,

 

Phant 8)

[rlculver]

Hi,

 

Glad to hear phantomphan has chosen his solution for his school. I now have until the beginning of september (building project got delayed!!!)

 

I have been around so many schools (doing some research in Kent) and the impression I am getting is that some say it works well and some say it does not.

 

I am also looking into doing a vanilla build. What do I need to know about, to be able to setup my own network. I know about Active Directory (basics), DNS Server etc, but not about RIS & deploying of GPO's and packages.

 

I setup a 2k network 4 years ago with basic user management (create users in AC), but no deployment or GPO's, but feel as the school gets bigger, I need a more secure central managed system. At the moment I have to go around each workstation to install new software!!!

 

I am going to setup a test server (Win 2003 R2) this weekend, but would like some advise on the stages I need to take. I still like the idea of developing my own system, even though I have gained a quote from RM etc.

 

Do you guys think a vanilla build is better than a RM system? Also any comments on the process I need to make to setup my server would be great

 

Thanks

 

Robert

[wesleyw]

Ahh now this will open up a can of worms you'll get my type who think Vanilla is the way to go and the Russdev posse who believe RM is. that is however personal preference.

 

i've removed RM in the last two schools I've worked for, This was their choice they hired me for that very purpose. 2.4 was a pain but cc3 isn't most of the time. Certain security problems i.e. locking down stations too much is annoying and in some cases MSIs on't work in CC3 there are ways round this. You could install CC3 on the servers but not the machines and create your own GPOs.

 

If you are set on vanillla though then a few words of caution. Firstly plan the entire system out first. Second get the system up and running and test it properly (preferably on a seperate/isolated network).

 

I used LNM Microsofts learning network management which uses web interfaces for a few of the Active Directory options and expands some functionality such as bulk creation of users et cetera. With Winodws 2k3 R2 you can set quotas for space but print quotas need something like Print manager Plus or PCredit. These aren't always accurate though as in some cases printing multiple copies of a document it doesn't count the pages for each copy.

[wesleyw]

Using LNM to setup your network really speeds up the process it also installs RIS so everything tends to be there MS don't support it though. However to be honest you'd use the normal tools and not LNM if it really started to behave badly. I've never experienced any problems after I finally read the installation instructions lol. Reverse DNS settings needed to be configured I think that was the only thing missing really but that doesn't take very long. If you need any help Edugeek is certainly the place to find it. PM me if you have any trouble with the setup but I'd certainly give LNM a go if you are just creating a practise server and you have some time.

 

Wes

[rlculver]

Hi,

 

Many thanks for the comments,

 

Where can I source the LNM?

 

Regards

 

Robert

[meastaugh1]

Here.

[rlculver]

Thanks

 

Downloading now.

 

So the LNM helps you in setting up a complete netowkrk for 'educational use'?

 

How many people have used this and found it very successfull?

 

Regards

 

Robert

 

P.S - Well worth playing around with though, even if it not what I am looking for

[meastaugh1]

I haven't played with it, just seen it at a demo, but it sounds as though it would be useful for a school that's setting up AD for the first time, which I guess is most likely to be primary schools. If you haven't already done so, I suggest you have a look at the LNM forum, this thread might be useful.

[GrumbleDook]

I was one of those that originally played with it and I put it to one side due to a few small issues.

 

There is a lack of documentation that means you have to makes some jumps in the dark. This is nothing new to most of us which is why I would say you should try it in a test network first.

 

Secondly, there are a few interesting feautures due to country settings. It did not like going for UK settings from scratch. If you set it up with En-US nd then add and change to En-UK then it is happier ... this is apparently happy now in the latest version.

 

Finally ... I still wanted to add my own settings to some things ... put the OUs into my own structure ...

 

For someone used to setting up domains on a regular basis it can save you considerable time, and the web interface tools it gives can make life easier for administration, but these are all tools that can be developed ayway ... in fact it has been built using the exact same methods that most admins would use to create their own tools.

 

Another benefit is that if you also look after more than one school it can help to set a standard across schools, making it easier for you and a few others to look after them.

 

The latest builds are hosted on codeplex ... register and add it as a project to your list.

[rlculver]

Cheers for the Codeplex link -Just registered and joining the project

[margesimpson]

Hi There

 

I am currently at an LA in the South and the provider for the remote backup service for schools solution has just launched a new product called centrastage. Although we are not running it at present, my colleagues in the south west are raving about it. I haven't experienced it yet for myself so I can only relay what my friend has said, however it appears that the software has been written specifically for authorities and schools - which is nice to know.

 

So far the support has been excellent, and they are piloting it now. Lets you do all sorts of things like role out software at the same time to loads of machines where ever they are, (or you are), get reports back on what's happening at schools (networks), get stats and monitoring facilities, remove software and reinstall new - like removing expensive anti virus and replacing it with AVG free in one go etc. but not needing to visit each school. It looks like Capita are endorsing it for this SIMS upgrade as no one told us how long it's going to take per school - and we still can't get a definitive answer!! We're waiting to see how it goes before taking the plunge but so far it looks to be a fab piece of technology. Sorry, I don't know anymore details or the website.

 

Marge. (Southampton)

[Skoggmeiger]

Hi There

 

I am currently at an LA in the South and the provider for the remote backup service for schools solution has just launched a new product called centrastage. Although we are not running it at present, my colleagues in the south west are raving about it. I haven't experienced it yet for myself so I can only relay what my friend has said, however it appears that the software has been written specifically for authorities and schools - which is nice to know.

 

So far the support has been excellent, and they are piloting it now. Lets you do all sorts of things like role out software at the same time to loads of machines where ever they are, (or you are), get reports back on what's happening at schools (networks), get stats and monitoring facilities, remove software and reinstall new - like removing expensive anti virus and replacing it with AVG free in one go etc. but not needing to visit each school. It looks like Capita are endorsing it for this SIMS upgrade as no one told us how long it's going to take per school - and we still can't get a definitive answer!! We're waiting to see how it goes before taking the plunge but so far it looks to be a fab piece of technology. Sorry, I don't know anymore details or the website.

 

Marge. (Southampton)

 

Could you tell us which LEA your colleagues in the south work for please?

 

On a side note, AVG Free should not be used in schools

 

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[javaDev]

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