Installing old OS on new kit

[Guest theeldergeek]

Problem I have here, is that we have just got some new iMac's, shipped with 10.6 Snow Leopard. Our existing suites are full of 10.5 Leopard.

 

I can image the 10.6 machines with an image off of the 10.5 machines, but the machine insisted on booting in verbose mode no matter what I did. I'm not sure what else may or may not work further down the line, so I have gone with installing 10.6 on the machines (as per how they are shipped).

 

What puzzles me, is how there is no way I can boot a 10.6 machine off of a 10.5 installation disc to actually install an older operating system which is more favourable to the way things are set up here. Is there something in the firmware that prevents this?

 

In a PC environment (on the assumption the drivers are available) I could install Win95 on a brand new machine shipped with Win7 if I wanted (OK, that's a bit extreme) but you see what I mean. Why is this not possible out of the box on the iMac's?

 

Another thing that now concerns me, is will the managed preferences I have set up for all my 10.5 clients (Workgroup Manager) work properly on the 10.6 clients? So far I haven't seen any adverse effects of it not working, but I'm wondering if I am going to hit problems running 10.6 clients with a 10.5 xserve?

 

Advice, comments welcome.

Edited June 9, 2010 by theeldergeek

[ICT_GUY]

95 wont work on new PC's It has all sorts of issues with new hardware and drivers.

 

Its an apple product, you do as you are told and whoop for joy at the privileged of not having control of hardware that you paid for. But hey, it looks kind of pretty which is all that matters.

[NotVeryPC]

Unfortunately the rule of thumb is you can't install older OS on Macs that ship with a newer one. This is usually because the newer Macs include hardware that isn't supported by the older OS.

As for WGM setting, they "should" manage the 10.6 client.

[Guest theeldergeek]

95 wont work on new PC's It has all sorts of issues with new hardware and drivers.

 

Its an apple product, you do as you are told and whoop for joy at the privileged of not having control of hardware that you paid for. But hey, it looks kind of pretty which is all that matters.

 

I did say installing Win95 was a bit extreme but it was the principal that if I wanted to, I wouldn't be prevented from doing so in the same way as I am on the Macs.

 

Yes, Mac's are pretty, and yes it's quite infuriating that I can't do with the hardware what I want, but I have to say, I do like the Mac OS as it has grown on me over the last couple of years.

 

Still need to know if I am going to hit problems running 10.6 clients off of 10.5 managed preferences though...

[Guest theeldergeek]

Unfortunately the rule of thumb is you can't install older OS on Macs that ship with a newer one. This is usually because the newer Macs include hardware that isn't supported by the older OS.

As for WGM setting, they "should" manage the 10.6 client.

 

Can I install a newer OS on older hardware then, in this case, Intel iMac's a little over 2 years old? Appreciate that this is going to require some sort of licensing upgrade, but I presume it can be done?

[sted]

I did say installing Win95 was a bit extreme but it was the principal that if I wanted to, I wouldn't be prevented from doing so in the same way as I am on the Macs.

 

Yes, Mac's are pretty, and yes it's quite infuriating that I can't do with the hardware what I want, but I have to say, I do like the Mac OS as it has grown on me over the last couple of years.

 

Still need to know if I am going to hit problems running 10.6 clients off of 10.5 managed preferences though...

 

actually you may find if the cpu is above a certain speed win95 wont install it will just bomb out iirc was a problem for some later k6 chips and the fix could only be applied once in windows useful

[NotVeryPC]

Yep You can install Newer OS on older hardware as long as it meets the system requirements.

You'll need to purchase a retail (full) version of Snow Leopard. The system disks that come with Macs are machine specific now.

[Guest theeldergeek]

actually you may find if the cpu is above a certain speed win95 wont install it will just bomb out iirc was a problem for some later k6 chips and the fix could only be applied once in windows useful

 

I was only using Win95 as an example (if a poor one) of the situation I am in with Apple, it wasn't meant that I definitely could or would, nor am I about to get into a discussion about it. I've never tried installing Win95 on a new machine, it's hardly likely I ever will; end of conversation AFAIC, although this might go some way to demonstrating anything is possible - http://help.wugnet.com/windows2/Windows-95-Fast-CPUs-ftopict520695.html

 

Edited June 9, 2010 by theeldergeek

[crc-ict]

actually you may find if the cpu is above a certain speed win95 wont install it will just bomb out iirc was a problem for some later k6 chips and the fix could only be applied once in windows useful

 

That's right - anything over 300MHz won't work. I had the issue with a K6-2 500, fixed in the short term by jumpering the CPU down to 300MHz, and in the long term by AMD sending me a free full version of Windows 98!!

[K.C.Leblanc]

actually you may find if the cpu is above a certain speed win95 wont install it will just bomb out iirc was a problem for some later k6 chips and the fix could only be applied once in windows useful

 

You could apply it, you just extracted dll files from the installation file and then coppied them to the correct place using a dos boot disk. The only issue was some of the DLLs weren't included in a default install of windows. So I had to use another patched machine as a reference to find out where they went.

[HodgeHi]

You cannot install a version of OS X that precedes new machines. The drivers (usually Graphics) are not on the CD/DVD for the newer hardware. OS X requires these drivers to allow it to boot into the GUI required for install.

 

You can image a machine with an earlier version, but only if the image has been updated to the latest build. This usually has the newer drivers added (usually as part of a .x increment).

 

Since the airport hardware is the same there should be no issues with this. Not sure about the nvidia drivers for though. Although it shouldn't be an issue as that is what i have done here. I run the (alu edu) imacs using 10.5.8 connected and managed to the OD and AD.

[ICT_GUY]

That's right - anything over 300MHz won't work. I had the issue with a K6-2 500, fixed in the short term by jumpering the CPU down to 300MHz, and in the long term by AMD sending me a free full version of Windows 98!!

 

I had a k6-2 450, happy days, it went at 450Mhz! The clue was in the name don't you know. It was exactly 100Mhz faster than my old K6-2 350 which made it 28% faster. You knew all this information just by reading the model number! It was easy being a techie in those days. (besides you actually noticed the difference the faster processor made)

[Guest theeldergeek]

As for WGM setting, they "should" manage the 10.6 client.

 

They should, but they don't, well not completely.

 

For example, 10.6 has Quicktime Player 10 on it whereas 10.5 only has QP7. On my WGM 10.5, QT7 is an 'allowed' application, but on the 10.6 clients, QP10 will not run as it isn't recognised as an allowed application due the 10.6 clients being managed by a 10.5 WGM!

 

Similarly, you can't run server tools 10.5 on a 10.6 machine, so I can't add QT10 to the allowed applications. You can only run ST10.6 on a 10.6 machine. I have also been told, you can't run server tools 10.6 on a 10.5 machine, but I need to check this out.

 

What I have to do (according to our provider) is run Server Tools 10.6 on a 10.6 client and add the things that won't run to the WGM application preferences. This apparently writes back to a plist on the xserve which will be shared by Server Tools 10.5 (are you keeping up?).

 

They assure me that it won't have an adverse effect on my OD user accounts if I do this as I am still authenticating as 'diradmin' back to the xserve.

 

So I no longer have a centrally managed solution, I now have to manage some clients from one place and others from somewhere else... deep joy.

 

What I now need to find out, is if we upgrade our xserve to 10.6, and run Server Tools 10.6 on it, will this manage the 10.5 clients without any issues at all? I suspect not as I've been told that Server Tools 10.6 requires OS X 10.6 to run, so I couldn't run ST10.6 on any of the 10.5 clients to add applications that differ between OS's! Like I say, I need to check this out.

 

Whatever happens, I am still going to have to run WGM 10.6 from the 10.6 clients to be able to manage them.

 

Phew!!

Edited June 10, 2010 by theeldergeek

[HodgeHi]

You can run WGM from a 10.6 client and still manage the 10.5 clients from the same machine. You don't need 2 separate machines to do this. The only thing that would change is if there are any differences between the 2 clients. i.e. dir util being moved.

[Guest theeldergeek]

You can run WGM from a 10.6 client and still manage the 10.5 clients from the same machine. You don't need 2 separate machines to do this. The only thing that would change is if there are any differences between the 2 clients. i.e. dir util being moved.

 

You can't (at least, I can't) run WGM 10.5 from a 10.6 client, I've tried. It just bombs out.

 

Even if I run WGM 10.6 on a 10.6 client machine to manage 10.5 clients, then how am I going to add those applications that are different between Leopard and Snow Leopard, i.e. Quicktime Player, and also the preferences which are also laid out differently, i.e. mouse and keyboard?

 

The way I see it, I have to run the relevant WGM on each version of the OS to achieve this, and this is what Apple are telling me.

[AntonioRocco]

Hi

 

@theeldergeek

 

"I have also been told, you can't run server tools 10.6 on a 10.5 machine, but I need to check this out"

 

This is correct:

 

Mac OS X Server: Admin tools compatibility information

 

However you can VNC from a 10.5 Machine to a 10.6 Client or Server that has the Admin tools installed and use them that way. You don't necessarily need ARD as VNC Server and Client is built into 10.5 and 10.6 Server and Client OS. You can VNC from any browser by keying in the url field vnc://IPaddressofRemoteClientyou'reinterestedin. Alternatively you can use the "Connect to Server" option from the Go Menu. Again key in vnc://IPaddressofRemoteClientyou'reinterestedin. Finally you could navigate to /System/Library/CoreServices/Screen Sharing and drop the application's icon into the Dock. In 10.6 Server the Server Setup Assistant automatically does this for you when completing the initial configuration.

 

It's been some time but you should also be able to do the same from a 10.4 Machine that has ARD 3.x installed. Ideally WorkGroup Manager is best utilized when installed on a Client OS.

 

Antonio Rocco (ACSA)

[Guest theeldergeek]

You cannot install a version of OS X that precedes new machines. The drivers (usually Graphics) are not on the CD/DVD for the newer hardware. OS X requires these drivers to allow it to boot into the GUI required for install.

 

You can image a machine with an earlier version, but only if the image has been updated to the latest build. This usually has the newer drivers added (usually as part of a .x increment).

 

Since the airport hardware is the same there should be no issues with this. Not sure about the nvidia drivers for though. Although it shouldn't be an issue as that is what i have done here. I run the (alu edu) imacs using 10.5.8 connected and managed to the OD and AD.

 

I tried this, running a 10.5.8 image on a machine shipped with 10.6, but I got a 'weird' verbose boot sequence no matter what I did to reset NVRAM etc. At that point, it concerned me as to what else 'under the bonnet' was going to act a little strange. The OS loaded fine, and I couldn't see any problems, but that isn't to say there wasn't something hidden which was going to break at a critical moment in 6 months.

[Guest theeldergeek]

I note that I can download Quicktime 7.6.6 from here QuickTime Player 7.6.6 for Mac OS X v10.6.3 which might be enough for me to get by on this occasion. The machines are generally only for using Final Cut Express, of which QT plays quite a big part, so if I can get the same version of QT as my WGM can manage, then I'll be most of the way there.

[Guest theeldergeek]

 

However you can VNC from a 10.5 Machine to a 10.6 Client or Server that has the Admin tools installed and use them that way.

 

Yes, I frequently VNC in from my Windows box to our xserve, so familiar with this. I just like the 'central management' side of things, i.e. 1 x WGM looking after all my clients machines. The way I see it, and the way Apple have told me it must be done, is to run different versions of WGM on the respective clients. It's more of an inconvenience to me personally than anything, but I guess I'm just going to have to get on with it.

[DMcCoy]

If the application paths are an inconvenience due to slightly different locations when creating dock items, you can always create a symbolic link to the new location. I did this to get iwork 08 and 09 running from the same icons on the few 10.6 machines we have.

[Guest theeldergeek]

If the application paths are an inconvenience due to slightly different locations when creating dock items, you can always create a symbolic link to the new location. I did this to get iwork 08 and 09 running from the same icons on the few 10.6 machines we have.

 

Wish it was just locations, it's program/application versions that are different.

[HodgeHi]

Not sure if this would work, but maybe just create an item in the location required an just rename it to whatever.app This may be enough to add it to the WGM.

[Guest theeldergeek]

Not sure if this would work, but maybe just create an item in the location required an just rename it to whatever.app This may be enough to add it to the WGM.

 

I could give that a try, nice idea. I downloaded and installed WGM 10.6 yesterday and installed it on the 10.6 clients. Everything was fine and it didn't seem to have any adverse effects on the 10.5 clients.

[TomH]

I just use a USB stick with a copy of 10.5 and 10.6 WGM depending on the build i wish to manage, OD where managed preferences are concerned is essentially just a store for information (the plists) it doesn't care what that information is.

 

So you can manage 10.5 clients with a 10.6 server, and 10.6 clients with a 10.5 server without issue there are obviously newer MCX that only the 10.6 clients will understand but thats just progress. The 10.5 OD will store all the functionality as far as MCX is concerned of 10.6.

 

As always.. im not sure Apple will support this and you can never mix 10.5 and 10.6 servers in a OD master / replica situation.

 

Tom