BSF and Birmingham schools

[Friez]

No, that would be unfair dismissal. What they do is transfer NM's and technicians to the new employer under TUPE regulations. The new employer is then able to issue redundancies.

 

What's more worrying is if they do the 'classic' method of issuing redundancy through legal loopholes.

 

If they make you redundant obviously they must issue you compensation for being made redundant. Many companies however, offer you a job you simply cannot take up. For example deploying you to a school on an iceberg in the middle of the arctic, of course if you refuse you've effectively resigned so they don't have to pay you a penny of redundancy.

 

It's constructive dismissal in effect, and I'm very concerned that this nasty trick is going to be pulled on a great deal of people.

 

Also, I'm not entirely sure of this, but if you've "resigned" are you able to claim JSA once you're out of a job?

 

How safe is your job after the TUPE? Unknown quantity, but I suspect not very safe at all.

 

Hmmmm...

[Friez]

This is probably a stupid question, but is this happening to primary schools too ?

 

As far as I know, it only directly affects secondary schools, but I guess primaries get hit indirectly especially if they have ties with secondaries for their IT provision...

[jamin100]

As far as I know, it only directly affects secondary schools, but I guess primaries get hit indirectly especially if they have ties with secondaries for their IT provision...

 

Well i have no ties with any secondary schools and I a NM in a primary so hopefully i'll be out of it all when BSF does hit primarys eventually!

[david_1152]

well, from what I've read your job or your contract is far from safe under tupe, again to quote from paper work :-

 

"Your new employer cannot dismiss you upon transfer, unless the main cause of the dismissal is a carefully defined economic, technical or organisational reason, which requires changes to the workforce and that they are acting reasonably in treating that reason as sufficient to justify a dismissal."

 

 

well, here's what I think, no way is RM or Redstone going to pay Network Managers wages for us to change paper and tonner. Yes some of us will get work in help centres (manned 24 hours a day), again some of us might get work at the server farm, but at the end of the day the rest of us are just dead weight, doesnt take a lot to work out what 'economic' reasons might mean.

 

Also, guys remember this. It might be that your school says it will keep you on, so no need to be tuped. Nice of them, for sure. BUT, you wont be able to touch the ICT system, well basic staff access, sure, but you wont be able to do your job..

[Grommit]

Birmingham is down to the last two. Redstone & RM. RM is pitching citrix and Redstone terminal services with share point.

 

 

Oh and the 5 year thing - that is spot on. Here the BIG thing for your heads to remember.

 

 

 

Well there is a plan by these parasite companies to force the Managed Services after 5 years... they are creating Server Farms so you'll have no Server Hardware on site and then when you want to jump ship you can't as there will be MASSIVE costs in getting new servers on site ..

 

So basically you're in it for life.. as you can really never go to another Managed Service Compay because all your data is on the Parasite company servers and how will you get that moved ?...

[Grommit]

Beeswax is right. They'll take away your servers and deduct some money off your costs.

 

Im gutted myself really because we already run a citrix base. We already offer to our pupils everything (mostly) that RM or Redstone will give us. so I just cant see the point.

 

all that pain for no real improvement for the staff or pupils.

 

Okay so I dont do a 24 hours a day 7 days a week telephone help line like them, well not yet anyway, I guess they'll soon have me doing that just as soon as I'm tuped.

 

Not if your servers are over 3 years old then they are written off..

 

And you can do a 24/7 365 help desk... just get an answering machine :-)

[Grommit]

And is / has this happened with schools currently under BSF ?

 

 

Yes RM in Hackney is going to reduce the workforce

[Grommit]

well, from what I've read your job or your contract is far from safe under tupe, again to quote from paper work :-

 

"Your new employer cannot dismiss you upon transfer, unless the main cause of the dismissal is a carefully defined economic, technical or organisational reason, which requires changes to the workforce and that they are acting reasonably in treating that reason as sufficient to justify a dismissal."

 

 

well, here's what I think, no way is RM or Redstone going to pay Network Managers wages for us to change paper and tonner. Yes some of us will get work in help centres (manned 24 hours a day), again some of us might get work at the server farm, but at the end of the day the rest of us are just dead weight, doesnt take a lot to work out what 'economic' reasons might mean.

 

Also, guys remember this. It might be that your school says it will keep you on, so no need to be tuped. Nice of them, for sure. BUT, you wont be able to touch the ICT system, well basic staff access, sure, but you wont be able to do your job..

 

Exactly..... In Hackney they are allowing all the Network Managers apply for the Pool Jobs...

[GrumbleDook]

Once again ... a quick dip into the waters to clarify things.

 

All BSF contracts have exit strategies for the various services. It is a crucial part of the bidding process. This includes transfer of ownership of assets to the LA or to the new company (if the managed contracts are taken up by another company). This also includes transfer of staffing (again, under TUPE) and numerous legal and financial constraints.

 

The paperwork is in legalese. Most of these large contracts are and you are at the mercy of the LA legal team to decipher it all. IMportant things for your school to ask about include:

Ownership of IT Equipment - even with the kit in the central server farm it has to be paid for. If the hardware is paid for by the contract then the LA / school own the hardware no matter where it is. Some companies will have the contract worded so they sell the service on the hardware, eg Citrix. There is a difference.

Transfer of ownership - THe contract is usually for 5 years ... this is 5 years before you can get out of it. This means that in 3 years the LA should be deciding whether to continue or replace the service provider. This can take some time but sufficient time needs to be allowed to go through an EU procurement process for a replacement. As part of the exit strategy the transfer of ownership of hardware needs to be carefully defined, including whether the new contractor will take ownership of the assets or whether they will use their own equipment and pay a decommissioning fee to the outgoing contractor.

Transfer of data - the contract will also include the management of certain types of data. Should the contract be stopped and IT picked up by the school or another contractor there needs to be clear and concise rules about the migration of existing data (user details, emails, configuration settings for hardware / software, files) to the new service. There may be costs involved in this so once a service provider is dropped you may find the school or LA being charged to get their data back. Usually this is rolled into the cost to the new service provider but YMMV. A clear outline of costs and methodology of this is needed in the initial contract.

 

Exit strategies are the bane of LA contracts. Because these contracts are for several years the rules about exit strategies can change so what you think should have been learnt from previous contracts is not actually relevant.

 

As a school you should ensure that there is sufficient representation when looking at the fine print of the contracts and that people are asking the right questions about it all.

 

Right ... Look into my eyes, look into my eyes, the eyes, the eyes, not around the eyes, don't look around my eyes, look into my eyes, you're under. I have not been back here and I am a figment of your imagination. Three, two, one ... you're back in the room!

[CyberNerd]

All BSF contracts have exit strategies for the various services. It is a crucial part of the bidding process.

 

This is likely to end up the same as the VLE contracts. Our budgets are being top sliced for something we don't want/need because we already have a superior product. For our LA to withdraw from their contract with the VLE provider - 50% of the schools need to be dissatisfied. Given that the chosen solution is fine for primaries (smaller primaries make up a significant portion of schools) there is absolutely no chance the LA will be able to back out. This will be the same for BSF. BSF will make good schools worse.

 

As with VLE's, BSF is negotiated at the LA level. We were consulted prior to VLE provision, we told the LA what we required and we didn't get it because the majority of smaller or failing schools were happy. As Broc mentioned, schools will have little input to BSF.

[Grommit]

 

The paperwork is in legalese. Most of these large contracts are and you are at the mercy of the LA legal team to decipher it all. IMportant things for your school to ask about include:

Ownership of IT Equipment - even with the kit in the central server farm it has to be paid for. If the hardware is paid for by the contract then the LA / school own the hardware no matter where it is. Some companies will have the contract worded so they sell the service on the hardware, eg Citrix.

 

Exactly the LA owns the kit and not the individual School... so any school that is sick of the ICT service has to pay a small fortune to get ICT back in-house after 5 years

 

I know of a LA where school governors are desperately trying to get ICT back in-house when not even a year has passed under the Managed Service Contract.... Yet all their servers were stripped out and they have nothing to fall back on..

 

and it's the same old story about the managed service contract... Loss of control, Loss of freedom, massive costs, cost's involved when it was free before, stupid helpdesks and timescale of simple repairs.. etc etc

[projector1]

any body going to the

Learning Platforms Strategy Group (Martineau, 16th Dec)?

 

anouncement being made about bidder for BSF

Edited December 15, 2008 by projector1

[Face-Man]

looks like the decision has been delayed until 12th january

 

pppFocus.com

 

http://www.birminghampost.net/news/west-midlands-education-news/2008/12/16/council-delays-naming-contractor-for-1-2bn-schools-programme-65233-22483004/