Why do fatailties on the railway cause such problems?

[nicholab]

On Friday when traveling home on a train that passes through Balham I was told that there were no trains running to Clapham junction. This was due to fatality at Balham. I am very cross that a poor level of information was provided they did not even know when service would resume!! Also it always takes forever to pick the bit up why?? Balham has only two lines I could jump on!! So why could they not use the other 3 I don't know!! There should be a special BTP team that can clear every thing up quickly wilsed getting all the evidence. Some woman look at me funny when I was complain on the phone well it is irritating getting continue delays on your line even if it was suicide.

 

Then when I got to Waterloo via London Bridge I was told southern ticks were not being accepted as of 16.30 it was now 16.40.

[tech_guy]

I got some funny looks in the pub when I suggested the police should have used a marksman to take that guy out on the bridge over the M5 - some people were stuck in non-moving traffic for over five hours. Suicide or not, some people are bloody selfish and inconsiderate.

[Theblacksheep]

ahhhh, someone that didnt consider the moany whinging commuters before they stepped out infront of a train and made you half hour late, you poor poor thing.

 

You should be proud people take the time to clear up other people bodies, even inconsiderate ones, maybe it'll be someone you know oneday. Maybe it wont be suicide either and everyone will be moaning about how inconsiderate they are for making them a little bit late.

[localzuk]

How b****y selfish are you people?! Someone died! Oh no, you got held up for a few hours, its not the end of the freaking world. Get some perspective!

 

I've been held up for 5 hours due to people committing suicide on the line. I didn't whinge, I didn't moan. I just sat down and waited, calling the people I was due to meet with.

 

Think about the poor driver of the train also - the distress he's going to be in. Think about the people who are now going to have to pick up all the pieces (there will be a lot of them). The people who have to clean up. The family of that person who died. The friends. The police officers who will have to do the job of telling them.

 

I don't find it annoying, I find it sad. And I find anyone who complains about it to be worthy of disdain by anyone who wants to put it there way.

[laserblazer]

I believe that if there's a fatality on the road then it is considered a crime scene which means a lot of investigation. This is why the road is closed for so long. I guess the same holds for accidents on the railway.

[nicholab]

5 hours that awful they should have found a way to get you round the incident. I wonder if a suicide delay has caused any one to commit suicide? It the attitude of the railway staff no trains does not matter does it!! They did not have a clue how long it would take! I would like to know if they closed the Brighton of Gatwick express line which also goes through Balham I just have this feeling we were treated differently to these lines!!

 

I do feel for the drive he was just getting on with his job ready for the bank holiday and smash in front of his train.

 

I think stations with fast trains should have doors on the platform. Surbiton station has so mamy it is a joke.

[tech_guy]

Some people who commit suicide are selfish. Imagine the trauma of the train driver / lorry driver whose path they step out in to?

 

When I was at school, the father of a classmate was a train driver who had someone jump off the platform under his train. He was off work for nearly a year and suffered ptsd for many years afterwards. He never went back to driving trains.

 

When I was a teenager I found a body in the local river of someone who had drowned themself, and I had a good few nightmares for several years afterwards. A sister-in-law had a similar experience as a child when she came across someone in a wood who had tried to kill themself by taking a drug overdose.

 

It's different for trained emergency service personnel 'who have to pick up the pieces' but in many many cases it's members of the public who witness the act or are first on the scene.

 

We had a suicide on our local bypass last year where a chap stepped out from a layby in to the path of an oncoming lorry travelling at 70mph. I passed the scene as ambulance staff 'were picking up the pieces' - one of them was vomiting in the bushes, along with several members of the public. I saw the lorry driver and he was totally distraught. A week later the same thing happened on the same bypass.

[localzuk]

Some people who commit suicide are selfish. Imagine the trauma of the train driver / lorry driver whose path they step out in to?

 

This has been discussed on here before - people who would commit suicide aren't of sound mind enough to think of the consequences to others. All they think about is how they want to end it. That is not selfish, it is simply how the human mind handles despair.

 

When I was at school, the father of a classmate was a train driver who had someone jump off the platform under his train. He was off work for nearly a year and suffered ptsd for many years afterwards. He never went back to driving trains.

 

When I was a teenager I found a body in the local river of someone who had drowned themself, and I had a good few nightmares for several years afterwards. A sister-in-law had a similar experience as a child when she came across someone in a wood who had tried to kill themself by taking a drug overdose.

 

It's different for trained emergency service personnel 'who have to pick up the pieces' but in many many cases it's members of the public who witness the act or are first on the scene.

 

We had a suicide on our local bypass last year where a chap stepped out from a layby in to the path of an oncoming lorry travelling at 70mph. I passed the scene as ambulance staff 'were picking up the pieces' - one of them was vomiting in the bushes, along with several members of the public. I saw the lorry driver and he was totally distraught. A week later the same thing happened on the same bypass.

 

Do you not think about what drove the person to do that? It isn't a conscious decision to annoy others...

[tech_guy]

Do you not think about what drove the person to do that? It isn't a conscious decision to annoy others...

 

Yes, but their not considering the potential traumatic effects of their actions on others can surely be interpreted as an inherently selfish action in itself?

Edited August 30, 2009 by tech_guy

[Little-Miss]

There was a thread very similar to this a few months ago....i shall not comment further...

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/behind-red-door/28654-people-jumping-front-trains.html

Edited August 30, 2009 by Little-Miss

[tech_guy]

There was a thread very similar to this a few months ago....i shall not comment further...

 

http://www.edugeek.net/forums/behind-red-door/28654-people-jumping-front-trains.html

 

I wondered where the feeling of deja vu had come from.....

[powdarrmonkey]

To answer the original question: because trains don't work like cars, they are extremely serial.

 

Once the train in question is halted, you have to:

• get emergency crews to the scene
  
• establish what happened and secure evidence in case of foul play
  
• ensure the line is safe for other trains to continue
  
• get the driver out and another one in, who could be coming from miles and miles away, because you can hardly expect them to carry on as if nothing's happened after an experience like that
  

 

This takes time, and meanwhile the rest of the system has also halted because there's no such thing as a quick diversion. The entire system, especially during rush hour, is timed to an amazing amount of precision and tiny things can upset it, because trains can't just overtake each other.

 

Meanwhile, in emotion-land: many, many drivers involved in one-unders don't ever get back in a train again, even as a passenger. Stop and think of them for a moment, can't you? You were late, deal with it. If it was a bomb in your carriage, you probably wouldn't have arrived at all.

 

(heh, look at that rep go...)

[tech_guy]

And can I add that I have and still do suffer from depression and have been treated for it in the past? Thank you.

[nicholab]

The real question is how can the is a mess/crime scenic on the track be dealt with to get all the evidence and every thing back to normal!! What to do with all the passengers stranded at other stations I know we are on the unimportant line. The roads don't often close all lanes and they seem to aim at getting traffic flowing again. Taking a long time over it is still not going to bring them back to life. I do think at high risk location more precautions should be taken.

[powdarrmonkey]

you think rail staff deliberately take as much time as they can so that trains don't get running again? eesh.

 

Trust me, they are doing their damndest to get the system running again because of the impact it has on the entire region.

 

It's true that information is sometimes hard to come by, I'll give you that. It's a combination of simply not knowing, and having other priorities to deal with. It's nice to get a reassuring 'yes, things are still broken' from time to time I suppose.

[contink]

Just as a suggestion...

 

If you want to try and deal with the "annoyance" of being held up by someone taking their own life or whatever it is, I find the following to be particularly helpful.

 

It wasn't me... I'm still alive... Time to recount my blessings

 

... and if that still doesn't do it for you... Try a near death experience (mine was an apartment block fire one Christmas Eve) to wake you out of any "my life sucks" pit and then try the quote above again.

 

It's not guaranteed but it certainly helps.

[Haptic]

Just as a suggestion...

 

If you want to try and deal with the "annoyance" of being held up by someone taking their own life or whatever it is, I find the following to be particularly helpful.

 

 

 

... and if that still doesn't do it for you... Try a near death experience (mine was an apartment block fire one Christmas Eve) to wake you out of any "my life sucks" pit and then try the quote above again.

 

It's not guaranteed but it certainly helps.

 

I'm with you on that fella after a very nasty car accident;)

[localzuk]

Yes, but their not considering the potential traumatic effects of their actions on others can surely be interpreted as an inherently selfish action in itself?

 

No, selfishness is not something that applies to depression and suicide.

Just as a suggestion...

 

If you want to try and deal with the "annoyance" of being held up by someone taking their own life or whatever it is, I find the following to be particularly helpful.

 

 

 

... and if that still doesn't do it for you... Try a near death experience (mine was an apartment block fire one Christmas Eve) to wake you out of any "my life sucks" pit and then try the quote above again.

 

It's not guaranteed but it certainly helps.

 

Agreed! Everyone should be happy they are alive - ignore the annoyances in life, they are meaningless in the bigger scheme of things.

[tech_guy]

No, selfishness is not something that applies to depression and suicide.

 

I disagree.

[localzuk]

I disagree.

 

Selfishness, to me is a conscious decision to not think of others - taking various forms (narcissism, simple selfishness, etc...) etc.... Committing suicide is being overwhelmed with dispair. Where your brain is simply not functioning. ie. it is a mental illness, not just a normal function of the brain leading to selfish behaviour.

[GrumbleDook]

The real question is how can the is a mess/crime scenic on the track be dealt with to get all the evidence and every thing back to normal!! What to do with all the passengers stranded at other stations I know we are on the unimportant line. The roads don't often close all lanes and they seem to aim at getting traffic flowing again. Taking a long time over it is still not going to bring them back to life. I do think at high risk location more precautions should be taken.

 

Oh my .. Oh my oh my! I didn;t realise that you were a SOCO expert and could adequately give advice on how a possible crime resulting in a fatality should be dealt with? Ok, said a little tongue in cheek but in reality it can take a long time to assess the scene, identify all evidence (it can help the officers dealing if they de-sensitise themselves by calling body parts 'evidence'), ensure that all possible victims are dealt with appropriately ... and quite often this is before H&S are allowed to then assess damage to the train and the track.

 

Most of this activity requires the line to be 'dead' (no traffic running except for trains / engines / vehicles need to get things going again, for emergency services, for security or a few very specific functions ... even the Royal Train or the PM stops for it usually!) to safeguard those working on the situation.

 

There are too many such suicides each year, but this actually gives BTP and other agencies enough practice so that they know the procedures, they work as fast as they can and things are running smoothly again. They know how frustrating it is ... but I am sure you would not want a fatal shooting or a bomb to be quickly swept up just so you could get on with your life ... especially if it affects you directly (eg loved one)?

[grumpy_git]

There are big differences between road and rail. A car can divert easily - our rail system is so tightly scheduled (as someone else said) that this is very difficult for trains. (The reason behind this is because in the 1960s a lot of secondary lines were shut, thus leaving no easy diversion in most cases - and since then there has been huge growth in passenger numbers). Whilst, perhaps, police etc can work around a car accident scene with cones around, the same doesn't hold on the railways - the whole line has to be shut.

 

I know a fair few rail staff, and quite a few drivers who never return to the industry again. As for lack of information, yes it can be frustrating - however, the staff are unlikely to know when the service will resume, so don't want to give duff information. For example, if you had a teacher asking you when you would fix a projector and you were waiting on a part you had no idea when it'd arrive, would you give her an estimate or would you explain that you weren't sure?

 

On another note, the jumper often isn't killed instantly - when the paramedics arrive they may still be alive, and indeed in many cases the person can be saved.

 

Until the police, ambulance etc have finished, the line must remain closed - the simple reason being that only rail staff are permitted to be on the track on a live railway, for obvious reasons. Then, to re-open, there are set procedures - not to mention repairs of things which may have been damaged in the incident.

 

And, once the line is re-opened, the signalman is left with a huge mess to contend with. Trains in the wrong place, drivers in the wrong place. Drivers need breaks at defined intervals, which must be adhered to if at all possible.

Edited August 30, 2009 by grumpy_git

[TechMonkey]

I got some funny looks in the pub when I suggested the police should have used a marksman to take that guy out on the bridge over the M5 - some people were stuck in non-moving traffic for over five hours. Suicide or not, some people are bloody selfish and inconsiderate.

 

As always, [ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBs0gq67ERA]YouTube - Chinese Bridge jumper. jumping suicider get a "push" from pedestrian. FULL VERSION[/ame]

[Andrew_C]

My, what a load of tangential thoughts...

 

1) There doesn't have to be a crime involved or even suspected. Any death outside a few medical situations will require a coroners inquest. This will require evidence to be collected.

 

2) This has to be done safely, hence road/rail closures.

 

3) It can take a lot of time to re-open lines, roads etc as others have said.

 

4) HOWEVER, there are inherent risks with road closures; people are often involved in accidents primarily because the traffic is congested. I would expect better plans to be in place to divert traffic, and clear the bottled traffic if it looks like a 5 hour hold up is on the cards. Failing to do so is IMHO negligent of the DoT or their agents.

 

5) More information to those delayed must be a priority. Also some way to communicate from trapped/stopped trains (mobiles may not be usable) to request assistance for anyone needing it. On a hot day, dehydration could be a significant risk, likewise cold could result in further casualties.

 

6) I know the underground are investing heavily in better station announcements; I know someone who got the contracts for some stations.

 

7) More stuff that will come to mind.

[torledo]

My, what a load of tangential thoughts...

 

1) There doesn't have to be a crime involved or even suspected. Any death outside a few medical situations will require a coroners inquest. This will require evidence to be collected.

 

2) This has to be done safely, hence road/rail closures.

 

3) It can take a lot of time to re-open lines, roads etc as others have said.

 

4) HOWEVER, there are inherent risks with road closures; people are often involved in accidents primarily because the traffic is congested. I would expect better plans to be in place to divert traffic, and clear the bottled traffic if it looks like a 5 hour hold up is on the cards. Failing to do so is IMHO negligent of the DoT or their agents.

 

5) More information to those delayed must be a priority. Also some way to communicate from trapped/stopped trains (mobiles may not be usable) to request assistance for anyone needing it. On a hot day, dehydration could be a significant risk, likewise cold could result in further casualties.

 

6) I know the underground are investing heavily in better station announcements; I know someone who got the contracts for some stations.

 

7) More stuff that will come to mind.

 

contracts for what exactly ? station annoucement systems ? what are the components of such systems that work between/across stations. genuinely curious, so long as you don't mind me taking the thread onto another tangent.