DfE Switch Hardware Standards

[psynegy]

What are people buying switch wise these days, how much are you spending per switch? Are you meeting DfE standards with these purchases?

 

DfE standards:

The switches need to meet the following standards:

 

• Provide a minimum of 1Gbps connectivity to desktop user devices
  
• Provide a minimum of 2.5Gbps connection to each Wireless Access Point
  
• Be stacked appropriately, with 40Gbps connections between switches in a stack
  
• Connections linking switches or switch stacks in hub rooms must connect back to the core server room using a minimum of 2x10Gbps with links taking different routes where possible
  
• Switches providing POE should adhere to IEEE 802.3af.at or bt as required by the connecting device and have LLDP-Med enabled
  
• Have a minimum of 512MB of core memory, support a minimum of 16000 MAC addresses, support spanning tree protocols such as MST or RST and use non-blocking switch fabric
  
• Switches should comply with Energy Efficient Ethernet to a minimum of 802.3az (or equivalent)
  

[aac]

Unifi Enterprise or Pro Max all the way...

[psydii]

Just out of interest, does anybody see more than 1Gb/s the Ethernet side of APs while they have 20+ client devices? I know that you can get high throughput on a single client, but what about when you have 20/30+ clients - can APs these days get anywhere close to using more?

[Primus]

On this, has anyone seen any work funded by DfE recently where they meet their own spec fully - I'm particularly thinking of diverse fibre routes?

[psydii]

On this, has anyone seen any work funded by DfE recently where they meet their own spec fully - I'm particularly thinking of diverse fibre routes?

Not recently. But a DfE funded installation here, and we have two routes from each network switch room back to the network core.

 

Even then, it violated the standard because

1) ultimately all cables come together in a service shaft run of 30m, up and along the same route to get to the core. There was no other reasonable way to the core, even when we were remodelling the entire building.

 

2) cabling actually is not direct from switch room to core. Each hub room is physically linked Core ->Room1 ->Room2 ->Room3 ->Room4->Core. Each Switch room has a patched link (violating the current standard) round the building eventually getting back to the core, and another patched link going the other way round again to the core. There is also is a switch in each location that has a layer 2 link to the two rooms on either side of it. The top switch in the stack in each room has the 10Gb link to core, the bottom switch has the two 1gb backup links to neighbours and the second 10Gb to the core. Each link to core lands at the core on independent blades in the core so the infrastructure can survive *two* module or fibre failures at either end.

 

 

Subsequently to the initial implementation we stood up a new building, and to provide service to that building a new external route was created from the core direct to the new building, and also from the new building to another network switch room, thus providing a physically diverse route that would survive should there be an incident that damaged the cabling in the aforementioned 30m run.

 

 

At another school, with (again) a funding stream that is no longer available, when remodelling just the network (not the entire building) a couple of new links were put in to provide a similar level of resilience, but we were lucky because the cabling was so old there that it followed the route of the old old old thin ethernet/z-net single bus topology. A new fibre from either end to the core produced resilient/redundant topology cost effectively, if the existing fibres had been is a hub and spoke arrangement we would have needed many many more new runs to provide the resiliency described by the current standards.

l

[synaesthesia]

 

2) cabling actually is not direct from switch room to core. Each hub room is physically linked Core ->Room1 ->Room2 ->Room3 ->Room4->Core. Each Switch room has a patched link (violating the current standard) round the building eventually getting back to the core, and another patched link going the other way round again to the core.

 

 

This is making me twitch like a junkie going cold turkey...

[Olliedawg]

We're 1gbps throughout all of our edge switches, 10gbps back end between servers/core. I know thats the guidance but I haven't seen a need for us to upgrade yet. Other things we need to spend money on. Some of our switches are capable of 40gbps

 

Never had an issue with 1gbps at my school with 640 students. & 90 odd staff.

 

We dont do 1:1 devices here - it was briefly mentioned by a member of SLT a while back, however when i said we'd need to invest in a wifi overhaul & switches it was quickly put to bed..!

[gszech]

Unifi Enterprise or Pro Max all the way...

 

+1 Unifi Enterprise

[Tefters]

Yes

No

No

No

Yes

Yes

Yes

 

Unifi.

 

We use to have a diverse fibre network that I had installed about 10 years ago on OM3, we have since made this our core network as we moved to 10gb backbone and the old fibre network was OM2 multiple 1gb links.

 

Would cost us a fortune to re-run / replace so moved over to the diverse network.

 

Due to the way out switching and Comms areas have panned out now we have had to branch off diverse links so some areas only have 1 fibre available.

 

As for the rest of those DofE guidelines, lol...

That's all best blue sky world, if only!

Edited October 21, 2024 by Tefters

[CrootUK]

Meraki MS125 and 225 on edge here all at dual 10Gbps spread across two core switches (where possible more in secondary rather than primary schools), was a mix Cisco Nexus/Catalyst, Aruba and Unifi at our schools, Meraki has made it way easier for all our techs to get involved/action network changes. Hiring skilled people in edu space is hard, Meraki took some pressure off of us (IT) so was worth the money ontop of the other benefits.

 

Don’t get me wrong UniFi is great, certainly gets the job done and now they have aggregation switches and proper warranty they certainly tick more boxes. When stacking comes they’ll be a real competitor for large networks (again N2H tho) still achievable without by chaining using DACs etc gotta get that STP Priority right tho [emoji6]

Edited October 21, 2024 by CrootUK

[Aprice]

Aruba 2930F or 2930M if doing propper stacking. 5400r where modular is needed.

 

I have used the 2930F with VSF before, where budgets are tighter I'd do that. Smaller sites we've used the Ms as cores.

 

We had a new build site 3 years ago, fibres were sort of diverse where possible, but did end up meeting in places along the way. I believe the duct to the sports hall was shared with both of them then they went opposite ways around the changing rooms maybe 5m apart.

Edited October 21, 2024 by Aprice

[DrCheese]

Yes, have been buying DFE specifications for our edgeswitch cabs - I can't afford to do them all at once but we're getting there.

Aruba - We have been buying the 6300 series which has dual 10Gbps SPF+ links back to our dual 5412 ZL2 core switches.

 

The cheaper 6200 series can do 2.5gbps, but can't stack at the speed the DFE ask for (40Gbps) - Not without losing some of your uplinks. Still an option for us in single switch cabs however.

 

We've only been putting in a single 2.5Gbps switch per stack (for APs), though, and stacking the cheaper 1Gbps-only versions for endpoints.

We have a few Unifi WiFi 7 points with 2.5Gbps links already on the new stacks and the speed difference is night/day, even with the same APs on 1Gbps links.

 

We couldn't go Unifi for edge, even tho we have Unifi wifi due to the lack of stacking (I don't want to have to faff about with aggregation switches or STP priorities) & as much as I love the wifi, there are so many horror stories about their Edge switches on Reddit I just didn't want to risk it (I'm aware others are ok with this...)

The lack of a Unifi roadmap & support lifecycle bugs me also.

[Steve21]

We have been buying the 6300 series which has dual 10Gbps SPF+ links back to our dual 5412 ZL2 core switches.

 

The cheaper 6200 series can do 2.5gbps, but can't stack at the speed the DFE ask for (40Gbps) - Not without losing some of your uplinks. Still an option for us in single switch cabs however.

 

Out of curiosity which specific models you going for re the stacked output? A full 2.5g and then 1gs or one of the weird "4/6" 2.5gs?

 

Steve

[DrCheese]

Out of curiosity which specific models you going for re the stacked output? A full 2.5g and then 1gs or one of the weird "4/6" 2.5gs?

 

Steve

 

Hello

 

JL659A - Aruba 6300M 48SR5 CL6 4SFP56 Switch - This is the "SmartRate" version which can go up to 5GBps (All sockets)

 

JL661A - Aruba 6300M 48 CL4 PoE 4SFP56 Switch - This is the 1Gbps version (All sockets)

 

Around £800 or so between them. If you're just doing a few it's probably affordable to do all with SmartRate but with the amount we had it would have pushed the project above budget.

[FN-GM]

[emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]][emoji6[emoji640][emoji637]][emoji639][emoji[emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]][emoji640][emoji639]][emoji637][emoji6[emoji640][emoji638]]]Unifi Enterprise or Pro Max all the way...

 

They don’t comply with point [emoji639].

[Primus]

They don’t comply with point [emoji639].

 

Depends on how you interpret it - we have no need of stacking therefore it's appropriate that they're not.

[Koldov]

What are people buying switch wise these days, how much are you spending per switch? Are you meeting DfE standards with these purchases?

 

As for the rest of those DofE guidelines, lol...

 

Depends on how you interpret it - we have no need of stacking therefore it's appropriate that they're not.

 

I would like to interpret it as IMHO I don't need to meet any of those specifications, therefore it's appropriate that I don't...

[msi_school]

I love these guidelines it gives me some ammunition when looking at infrastructure, whilst not tying my hands with unnecessary requirements that are not applicable to my use case.

[DrCheese]

I love these guidelines it gives me some ammunition when looking at infrastructure, whilst not tying my hands with unnecessary requirements that are not applicable to my use case.

 

Same. I can point to them and go "Well the DFE say we should be buying X" - Equally I'm wary if I don't buy DFE spec then I'd have to justify why I'm not (To people who likely aren't IT savvy)

[PotNoodleTech]

I think it's up to the school to evaluate their requirements and decide if they are posibly going to over spend to meet the requirements.

 

The one size fits all approach never works - or at least if it does work (everyones at 40 gig) then there is too much wasted taxpayers money in the project. But this minimum spec is quite high and really you could argue is overkill in many areas for primary and smaller secondaries (40 gig trunks, 10 gig building links when the building only has 2 clasrooms, etc).

 

Sadly theres no easy way to do this the risk for them is they leave it to each school and then each school heavily penny pinches, does not get what is neccasary which is historically what has happened over the last 20 years.

 

I would advise you try and meet all the requirements but be balanced, theres no point in overspending so hard on infratructure so that you can not afford any new PCs or chromebooks to actually run on your infrastructure. Arguabley the end user devices are the most important as no matter how fast your switches are - without an end user decvices - there is no ICT.

[DrCheese]

Yes, I haven't held to it 100% in certain areas.

Eg, we have a coms cab that serves just 3 devices so it has a smaller 6100 unit in instead. It doesn't have 2.5GBps but.. meh - Likewise our server iDracs & OOBM aren't connected at anything higher than 1Gbps or will never need to be.

 

Reading between the lines tho the DFE are seeing a 1:1 future so they are attempting to force schools to get their networks up to scratch for it.

I have to say having tested a WiFi 7 point on a 1GBps connection vs a 2.5Gbps connection the difference is night and day.

[dmj]

Reading between the lines tho the DFE are seeing a 1:1 future so they are attempting to force schools to get their networks up to scratch for it.

I have to say having tested a WiFi 7 point on a 1GBps connection vs a 2.5Gbps connection the difference is night and day.

 

Even without 1:1, the DfE know it's not going to be replaced for 7->10 yrs and by that time all devices will be running WIFI 7/8/9 and those 1Gb/s uplinks are going to become a serious bottleneck.

I'm surprised they don't recommend dual connections to AP's TBH.

[psydii]

Even without 1:1, the DfE know it's not going to be replaced for 7->10 yrs and by that time all devices will be running WIFI 7/8/9 and those 1Gb/s uplinks are going to become a serious bottleneck.

I'm surprised they don't recommend dual connections to AP's TBH.

I thought they do, but then I haven't read the spec in the last six months.

 

On 2.5G to APs Can we just be clear - in an environment with 20+ devices on a single AP all active syncing cloud documents/printing etc you see greater than 1GB/s over wireless through a single AP? I've taken the lack of whitepapers boasting *real-world* throughput since early .11ac era as indicative that throughput still collapses under load, but perhaps to a higher value than it used to?