Loft water tanks... why?

[mavhc]

It's very easy to find your heat loss, heat the house until it's at a consistent temp, when there's a consistent temp outside, and then measure how much you have to burn to keep it at that temp

 

Then you have a number, kWh per degree of temp difference

 

No estimates required.

[robyholmes]

When heating, does it tend to dry the air, as air conditioners do? I live in a very well-insulated flat, the only heating we use is a 1KW fan heater for warming feet up in particularly cold weather. In colder weather we do need to run a dehumidifier to take the moisture out of the air. I wondering if we had a modern air-sourced heat pump / air conditioner it would both do a bit of heating and dry the air?

It does dry it, but we've not had to dehumidify yet. We have a whole house heat recovery system as well which removes moisture so you'd think the combination would cause it to be to dry, but not found it so far.

 

We do dry cloths inside if weather isn't sunny outside, so that might just add enough.

 

I wish more people would consider air to air. As a country we seem set on keeping radiators when most other countries in our climate have blown air systems.

[mavhc]

Only reason for air-water is there's not enough time/money/people to convert everything to air-air.

 

A2A is so cheap there's not even a grant for it

[Rob_D]

I wish more people would consider air to air. As a country we seem set on keeping radiators when most other countries in our climate have blown air systems.

 

Wouldn't Air-air/HVAC style system require a lot of ducting that I imagine would a pain to retrofit into a UK house. (I'm imagining a US style "central air" HVAC system)

[Koldov]

My current house was built c.1970 I think.

 

When I moved in (1998) there was no double glazing (single glazed/wooden frame) and no central heating (just a couple of storage heaters downstairs and a couple of electric convection-type heaters in the bedrooms).

 

What I did find in the kitchen, was a cupboard with a half-height metal door and inside what looked like (iirc) a very small engine. This was removed by the people that put the Gas Combi-boiler in (so I didn't pay it much attention) and underneath it I found a pipe going into the floor. I found the other end emerged in the garden and it had a metal plate screwed into the wall above it on which I could make out the word 'Mobil'.

 

During redecorating I found that large square holes in the walls throughout the house had been filled in over the years and surmised that these were originally vents. So, oil fired, but nonetheless a warm air system.

 

I guess the 70s was an interesting time in heating whilst they were building that estate as I previously lived in a maisonette just around the corner. That had electric elements in the ceiling (like underfloor heating in reverse I guess).

Edited September 26, 2024 by Koldov

[Andrew_C]

Done with "cassettes" nailed high up on your walls, microbore pipes between compressor and cassette, requiring lagging.. The aesthetic would be a hard sell in many households...

[mavhc]

Bungalows are fine, it's the downstairs of 2 storey houses that are annoying. Still, better than an entire wall being covered with a large ugly metal object so you can't even use the wall for anything, weird pipes that'll likely leak water at some point, and setting fire to things inside your house with a boiler

[robyholmes]

Wouldn't Air-air/HVAC style system require a lot of ducting that I imagine would a pain to retrofit into a UK house. (I'm imagining a US style "central air" HVAC system)

Yes a central system would be hard to retro fit unless in a bungalow.

 

We went wall units that aren't to 'Commercial' looking. We could have had fancier looking units, different colours, fabric fronts etc. But choose to go for a cheaper option for now. As more people fit them at home prices for these will come down.

 

What I always say to people is you don't complain about the far bigger white metal radiators on your walls, right where you want to put your sofa/cupboard. So why does a slight deeper but smaller unit unit on the wall high up matter.

 

People accept radiators as that's the norm, but it doesn't have to be.

 

Plus you get air con for summer! It can heat or cool the house in minutes rather than hours like an air to water system or you run it low and slow and it's just as efficient.

[jmak]

I'm really happy with our air to water system, but I wish I'd (been advised to) look at air to air. I've seen an install in an early 20th century solid walled house. Heat up was much quicker than our ASHP and drying the air a bit would be great - we have to manage condensation dampness. I reckon I could have worked out something acceptable for routing ducts.

 

I have a family member living in a central London flat and I'm definitely encouraging them to look at it. Probably outside unit is quieter and people won't immediately spot it's one of these new fangled heat pumps. More importantly, I can imagine city summers becoming oppressively hot and the cooling could be a massive benefit.

[PaddyNewman]

I moved into a rural place, again oil burner, header tanks and now, a power shower (by that, install a pump) ... best thing you can do

I had an additional water tank added, got 2 large ones up there, worth getting hands on and checking them and popping a lid with a bit of weight on there. Few mice have entered and not left in the 2 years I've been here!

 

Oil burns fairly fast if you keep it on for long, I've got a pretty decent flow and am half way through my 1200l tank since January this year and it does my hot water for 4 hours a day, my heating (now its cold enough apparently, she says) is on for 3 hours at night and I imagine we won't need a refill till Feb/March

Edited September 26, 2024 by PaddyNewman

[nicholab]

You don’t need to large hot water tanks if you can recharge it quick enough. If you look at heat geeks unvented cylinders it will do the trick from a small size https://newarkcylinders.co.uk/heatgeekministore/. Never get rid of your hot water cylinder today in an any heating renovation they will be important when more houses move to heat pumps.

[Rob_D]

You don’t need to large hot water tanks if you can recharge it quick enough.

Depends how hot you like your shower, and how long you spend in it. I wouldn't expect recharge to be able to keep up with a power shower, so ideally you'd want the tank to be big enough for whatever a normal shower is for you.

[PotNoodleTech]

Depends how hot you like your shower, and how long you spend in it. I wouldn't expect recharge to be able to keep up with a power shower, so ideally you'd want the tank to be big enough for whatever a normal shower is for you.

 

You can get around somewhat this by heating up your tank more turning the temp down on your shower and letting it mix more cold water in - makes the hotter water go further. I cant see any normal person wanting any less than a 160l tank though TBH if you want a decent shower or bath.

[PaddyNewman]

Yeah we have a huge bath also and it was purging fast. Before adding the pump it was OK, but I would rather have a powerful shower than something just past dribbling

[nicholab]

There a video of a shower happening and demand keeping up.

[Koldov]

I moved into a rural place, again oil burner, header tanks and now, a power shower (by that, install a pump) ... best thing you can do

I had an additional water tank added, got 2 large ones up there, worth getting hands on and checking them and popping a lid with a bit of weight on there. Few mice have entered and not left in the 2 years I've been here!

 

Oil burns fairly fast if you keep it on for long, I've got a pretty decent flow and am half way through my 1200l tank since January this year and it does my hot water for 4 hours a day, my heating (now its cold enough apparently, she says) is on for 3 hours at night and I imagine we won't need a refill till Feb/March

 

I'm OK with lukewarm 5 minute showers though...

 

So do you have an oil boiler for central heating/header tanks/immersion heater set-up?

 

If so, any reason you stuck with that and didn't look at something like a combi?

 

Is it cost for burning oil to heat hot water (I'm guessing it would absolutely guzzle it), or cost of replacing the system?

 

I think we are going to actually go for an external replacement boiler for now, like a 'Grant' (good reviews) and look again at options in 10-15 years or so, something like this:

 

https://www.screwfix.com/p/grant-vortex-pro-21-outdoor-oil-combi-boiler/478KP

 

I mean not that one exactly, would have to see what the installer recommends. I do get the device is a 'single point of failure' (and the fuel source) for the heating and hot water and I am concerned about fuel management, but it seems the simplest option...

[jmak]

Moving on from my recommendation for an ASHP [emoji16]

 

I would recommend a system boiler rather than a combi. You'll have more options and be able to get better hot water flow as per previous answers. It also gives you an emergency backup option as you can fit an electric immersion heater in the hot water tank - if you end up with a cheap overnight electricity rate it can even be relatively inexpensive water heating and if you run out of oil(!), you'll at least be able to have a warm shower.

 

I'd also get rid of those storage tanks in the loft. You'll at least want to replace them - even if they have a secure lid on now, you've no idea what might have crawled in and died in the past. I also don't like the idea of drinking (brushing teeth counts for me) water that's been stored for an unknown period of time. If you want more than mains pressure for your shower, let your plumber know - it's a different design.

 

Check the state of your oil tank - ours was leaking when we moved in and we had to replace it. Before you do that, check the rules on where you're allowed to put it - restrictions on minimum distance from house, boundary, windows, plants, fence...

 

Install a remote monitoring tool for your tank so that you don't run out. Learn to bleed the oil line so that when you've ignored the warning you about your oil running low you don't need to call someone out to help.

[mavhc]

I'd also get rid of those storage tanks in the loft. You'll at least want to replace them - even if they have a secure lid on now, you've no idea what might have crawled in and died in the past. I also don't like the idea of drinking (brushing teeth counts for me) water that's been stored for an unknown period of time. If you want more than mains pressure for your shower, let your plumber know - it's a different design.

 

Depending if the storage tanks feed the cold water taps, and which taps. Test with your thumb

[PaddyNewman]

I'm OK with lukewarm 5 minute showers though...

So do you have an oil boiler for central heating/header tanks/immersion heater set-up?

If so, any reason you stuck with that and didn't look at something like a combi?

Is it cost for burning oil to heat hot water (I'm guessing it would absolutely guzzle it), or cost of replacing the system?

I think we are going to actually go for an external replacement boiler for now, like a 'Grant' (good reviews) and look again at options in 10-15 years or so, something like this:

https://www.screwfix.com/p/grant-vortex-pro-21-outdoor-oil-combi-boiler/478KP

I mean not that one exactly, would have to see what the installer recommends. I do get the device is a 'single point of failure' (and the fuel source) for the heating and hot water and I am concerned about fuel management, but it seems the simplest option...

 

We have 2 loft tanks > immersion tank with the element isolated so we only power on via mains juice when we have boiler work done but the timed heating and hot water is done via the oil/kerosene/red diesel burner.

 

Reason I haven't gone combi - I just can't be bothered if I am being honest, we are remote enough that you can't find our house with a postcode and a huge sign, having builders attempt to come out is pain. Spent 3 months finding a bathroom fitter that was happy to travel and install/scope.

When we get round to sorting the garden and extending, it will come up as we do need to smash the wall down where the boiler is against so.... potentially. We currently have a Warmflow boiler which works great and was about a year old when we moved in and sits at a 65 degree setting all year round, seems the best heat for £. Usage is measured by a flow meter (technoton dfm S7) which helpfully feeds telematics into a Pi which then displays on my home graphing to let me know flow rate/hr and then our bodged in thermostat lets me know when its on/off and how much the flow was for the last hour and I feed it £per Litre and it works out how much it cost. I like the DIY tech route

and as above, our tanks solely hold the hot water side and refill via the mains. Our cold taps are all pure mains feed and we have absolutely crazy pressure, if your cold is gravity fed, you'd overcome that with a thumb, we most certainly cannot and have been drinking this water fine for over 2 years. We also happen to have a 2nd spur off the mains water pipe for our outhouse which is helpful when we are having water turned off in the house, we can still maintain a sensible life, such as when our bathroom was ripped out, I could still wash happily without having to trek 30 miles to a friends.

But everything works... basically aint broke don't fix is how we are running this house:D ... don't get me started on internet provisions...

Edited September 27, 2024 by PaddyNewman

[jmak]

Yes a central system would be hard to retro fit unless in a bungalow.

 

We went wall units that aren't to 'Commercial' looking. We could have had fancier looking units, different colours, fabric fronts etc. But choose to go for a cheaper option for now. As more people fit them at home prices for these will come down.

 

What I always say to people is you don't complain about the far bigger white metal radiators on your walls, right where you want to put your sofa/cupboard. So why does a slight deeper but smaller unit unit on the wall high up matter.

 

People accept radiators as that's the norm, but it doesn't have to be.

 

Plus you get air con for summer! It can heat or cool the house in minutes rather than hours like an air to water system or you run it low and slow and it's just as efficient.

Just worked it out [emoji2357]

 

My house and pretty much every house built into the early 20th century originally had a fireplace in every habitable room.

 

Mostly the chimneys are still in place, even when the fireplace is looking gone. Perfect for repurposing to bring heated/cooled air in to the rooms from a distribution point in the loft.

[Koldov]

We have 2 loft tanks > immersion tank with the element isolated so we only power on via mains juice when we have boiler work done but the timed heating and hot water is done via the oil/kerosene/red diesel burner.

 

Ah, so like the diagram, your hot water tank is fed from the boiler as well as having an immersion heating element? Well done on buying a house with a nearly new boiler... we are estimating ours to be at least 25 years old... but no idea until we get in there how it's all actually plumbed in!

 

But everything works... basically aint broke don't fix is how we are running this house:D ...

 

Well, I think we are definitely going to have to live that mantra for a while... it appears as even though our solicitors were telling us that they were 'pushing' for 'end of September' to complete... as of last week the house we are going to buy hasn't been emptied (and the vendors are 'away on business')...

 

Also this appears to be the first time our buyer has heard of this and is only just now thinking about what days they would like to move! I have no idea where the confidence of our solicitor came from... but our buyer is casually offering a moving date near the end of October!

 

The worst thing is we've been ready and waiting (loft/garage/shed cleared and living out of boxes) for over a month now, thinking we were almost good to go!

 

So, minus a few degrees C to the temperature and add a few CM more to the rainfall... sounds like fun, right?! I hope the boiler works and we can get a decent price on an 'emergency' oil delivery, because the OH doesn't fancy doing any days without heating that time of year.

 

Just worked it out [emoji2357]

 

My house and pretty much every house built into the early 20th century originally had a fireplace in every habitable room.

 

Mostly the chimneys are still in place, even when the fireplace is looking gone. Perfect for repurposing to bring heated/cooled air in to the rooms from a distribution point in the loft.

 

Unless like most of those house where they've been remodelled to remove the fireplace and breast in the rooms, it means the stack has been removed right up into the loft. Usually with a metal plate to plug the hole and gallows brackets resin bolted in to the wall (not on ours of course, oh no.. it appears the previous owners just had some mortar jammed in there and some bricks 'thrown' at it until they stuck - see photo in OP). Of course these days (now we have to rectify it) we've found articles online that suggest most building control have started recommending an RSJ to be fitted instead! This due to the complicated nature of the forces affecting chimney stacks and the walls they're attached to... who knew?

[PaddyNewman]

FWIW I compare heating oil (as do most I feel) when it comes up for fill up time, "boilerjuice" tends to be OK if you are in a bind but not the cheapest.

 

Lincolnshire has very specific companies that handle it, but "YourNRG" has been the cheapest routinely for me - unsure if they have a place near you but whilst there is only maybe 1-2ppl difference, that adds up when you buy 1000l, and most want a minimum 500l fill up, understandably. With my last top up, 750l was 52.57ppl, right now it showing as 55.32ppl ~ £435 which would last us from now till probably start of next cold season if I switch to immersion for showers over summer.

 

If your house is as old, we have a void under the living room with an aging wooden floor, which is no longer sealed. When it gets breezy and cold, you basically have aircon coming through the floor. I need to get the floor done but for this year, I will settle for a temporary carpet!

[Koldov]

Yeah and I presume it only gets more expensive the nearer we get to Winter?!

 

The floors as far as we can tell are all laminated, I had thought they were on concrete being all on the ground level, but we noticed a slight spring in the step (I thought just cheap laminate - which it probably is anyway) and then noticed the low level air bricks, so yeah probably floorboards under the laminate... no idea what state they're in, but hopefully it makes it a little more airtight though.

 

My parent live in rural Cornwall and have an oil setup, they say their village has a little club that purchases bulk. Might actually have to interact with the locals and see if that's a thing...

[jmak]

There's no such thing as a good price for an emergency fill up.

 

The two options I found were:

 

1) Buy regularly from a local firm - they'll usually fit you in if you forget to order and need some in a hurry at whatever their going rate is. Anyone else will charge a premium for quick delivery.

 

2) Plan ahead and buy via Boilerjuice. They have buyer weekend where the more people in a locality order, the lower the price gets, or order weeks in advance and then one of the suppliers will just fit you in next time they're in your area and will therefore charge a lower price.

 

Current prices on Boilerjuice for 1000l for my address:

Delivery in two weeks: £600

Delivery on Wednesday: £850

 

My local company would probably be between 5% and 10% more than the lowest price, but I'd have a good chance of delivery tomorrow at the same price.

 

Other hints:

Always fill the tank in July or August - top up the minimum you need ay any other time. I regularly needed more in February and bought enough to see me through to spring and then tired up again to get through to summer when I did the annual fill up.

Never buy just before Christmas - there's always a mad panic and a price peak.

Keep an eye out for political unrest in oil producing regions - if you wake up and someone's invaded Iran, order some oil before the markets wake up.

[sigma]

Our oil tank is 2,500l but we dont use that much in a year. We do always fill up in July/Aug though. Same with the woodshed though we should have enough 3 year old logs from our own trees for this winter.