Stage Lighting Upgrade

[G00G00MUCK]

Hi, we are looking to replace our old tungsten stage lighting with LED units. I was just wondering if anyone here has updated their wiring and dimmer packs for this purpose. And if they can give me a rough idea of the cost, and any unforseen problems that may have arrisen? I don't need prices for fixtures, we will be looking at that later. I just need to know how much a rewire is likely to hit us for? Thanks in advance.

[dgsmith]

We're going through the same consultation right now too, although finding the money when there are various other priorities is currently our issue. The whole system was condemned and removed, so we currently have nothing.

 

I'm fairly sure you wouldn't use dimmer boards with LED though, as each fitting would have a direct power connection (or daisy chained, as most LED fittings have power in/out), as well as being on the DMX circuit to control the brightness, colour (where applicable) and movement (where supported). This is all then controlled via the desk. I don't know a great deal about LED fittings, beyond my own research and various preliminary meetings, but we'd have to have mains power directed up to each bar and the DMX circuit completely rewired too to loop through each fitting. We need a "from-scratch" solution though, including the bars themselves as everything on the old system is gone/has to go.

[PotNoodleTech]

Same issue here. The lighting wiring etc is 30+ years old. Total replacement is gonna cost a lot.

 

We've rented a system for this years show.

[PotNoodleTech]

We're going through the same consultation right now too, although finding the money when there are various other priorities is currently our issue. The whole system was condemned and removed, so we currently have nothing.

 

Out of interest why condemned? Electrically condemned or physically condemned?

 

It sounds far fetched to condemn even the actual physical bars bolted to the ceiling as all a new company is gonna do is charge a fortune to fix exactly the same thing back up??!

[BennyG]

We recently upgraded our dimmers to Vari-lite/Zero 88 Betapack 4. These provide both 'hot power' for LEDs and dimmable power using the existing cabling/lanterns - assuming the cabling is all good/depending on what's been condemned? This also included DMX to each bar via a DMX splitter/buffer. For control we went with a Chamsys QuickQ 20. This has given us a hybrid mix of older (but still in good condition tungsten) and LEDs.

[G00G00MUCK]

I'm fairly sure you wouldn't use dimmer boards with LED though, as each fitting would have a direct power connection (or daisy chained, as most LED fittings have power in/out), as well as being on the DMX circuit to control the brightness, colour (where applicable) and movement (where supported).

 

That is why we are looking to rewire the system, replace the dimmers etc.

We currently use a mixture of tungsten fixed to the rigging and cheap LED units on stands. The LEDs have demonstrated their versatility, but are just not good enough. They were very cheap, and the technology has moved on so quickly in the last few years.

[G00G00MUCK]

We recently upgraded our dimmers to Vari-lite/Zero 88 Betapack 4. These provide both 'hot power' for LEDs and dimmable power using the existing cabling/lanterns - assuming the cabling is all good/depending on what's been condemned? This also included DMX to each bar via a DMX splitter/buffer. For control we went with a Chamsys QuickQ 20. This has given us a hybrid mix of older (but still in good condition tungsten) and LEDs.

 

That sounds like an interesting option. We currently have a hybrid of fixed tungsten lighting and mobile LEDs. We use an ADJ USB adapter and a laptop, or an old Strand deck to control them. But that depends on the ability of the lighting tech, usually a student.

[BennyG]

That sounds like an interesting option. We currently have a hybrid of fixed tungsten lighting and mobile LEDs. We use an ADJ USB adapter and a laptop, or an old Strand deck to control them. But that depends on the ability of the lighting tech, usually a student.

 

We moved from an old Strand desk as well. Generally happy with the QuickQ 20 - relatively easy to set up, decent touch screen as well as conventional faders and regular firmware updates. There's a iPad app for wireless control of the desk and PC app for offline show set up/testing etc. They also have a setup and training videos online.

[PotNoodleTech]

We moved from an old Strand desk as well. Generally happy with the QuickQ 20 - relatively easy to set up, decent touch screen as well as conventional faders and regular firmware updates. There's a iPad app for wireless control of the desk and PC app for offline show set up/testing etc. They also have a setup and training videos online.

 

Wow that sounds good!!

[SamanthaD]

If you're going full LED you will not need any dimmers, dimming is done on the unit, so only hot power is required. Chances are you can re-purpose your wiring to get power up to the bar, just make sure you have the relevant protection in place for the circuits (breakers etc).

You will have to get DMX up to the bar as well for control, please go wired for this as wireless may test ok during rehearsals etc but when you fill your hall with parents etc with all their devices it's almost guaranteed to fail. Wires work every time!

For control the Quick-Q series is pretty good and being Chamsys there's lots of online videos. I use the MagicQ software myself almost exclusively (unless I'm forced to use Avolites) and love it for the simplicity and versatility. Glad to hear other users here are seeing the same thing!

[Jawloms]

The other thing to keep in mind with full LED is because they flicker (but obviously quicker than we can see) it does mean you can get photos with a red/blue/green wash depending on where they are in their cycle.

[dgsmith]

Out of interest why condemned? Electrically condemned or physically condemned?

 

It sounds far fetched to condemn even the actual physical bars bolted to the ceiling as all a new company is gonna do is charge a fortune to fix exactly the same thing back up??!

 

Our lighting bars are (were) all like a c-shape type (essentially a circular bar with a quarter of the diameter cut out) so that wires can just be pushed in, rather than needing to be pushed through. Consequence of this is that the structural integrity is compromised as the bar doesn't go all the way around. It's lasted ok for decades with heavy tungsten fittings but it isn't a "thing" these days and so could not pass. To be fair, we'd probably want to change them anyway if we have to change everything else. The rest of the electrics were written off in entirety.

 

The only things not to fail were the fittings themselves, but we have no means of using them now.

[dhicks]

Hi, we are looking to replace our old tungsten stage lighting with LED units. I was just wondering if anyone here has updated their wiring and dimmer packs for this purpose.

 

As mentioned above, a lot of LED lights these days have both IEC power cable inputs and outputs, meaning you can daisy-chain them together. Check the power consumption of each fixture, but our (probably somewhat under-powered) whole setup doesn't total 13A. For the newer setup in the church hall we use, we have three lighting bars above the stage with a 16A Commando socket at the end of each bar, each socket being on a seperate circuit running from the consumer unit, so we can daisy-chain the fixtures on each bar together for power.

[Andrew_C]

Another "gotcha" is switching. If you try to switch an entire rig of LEDs or movers on at once, is that the inrush currents can erroneously trip breakers. High leakage currents can cause issues with RCDs.

 

Split the rig into zones. Have some sot of switching so you can turn off individual circuits if a lantern start misbehaving.

[G00G00MUCK]

The other thing to keep in mind with full LED is because they flicker (but obviously quicker than we can see) it does mean you can get photos with a red/blue/green wash depending on where they are in their cycle.

This hasn't been a problem in the past because our lighting has been poor so shutterspeeds have been low. For example, I shoot at 120th for video and the LED projector we use sometimes is fine. If I up the shutter speed to 250th then I get the colours you mentioned. I think any decent LED light will be 400mhz+ so this shouldn't be an issue. But your right, it is deffinitely a consideration.

[SamanthaD]

As mentioned above, a lot of LED lights these days have both IEC power cable inputs and outputs, meaning you can daisy-chain them together. Check the power consumption of each fixture, but our (probably somewhat under-powered) whole setup doesn't total 13A. For the newer setup in the church hall we use, we have three lighting bars above the stage with a 16A Commando socket at the end of each bar, each socket being on a seperate circuit running from the consumer unit, so we can daisy-chain the fixtures on each bar together for power.

 

For IEC units keep the total load under 10A - that is the maximum load a C13 / C14 IEC connector is rated for. Also look at the cable size - a lot of IEC ready made cables are only made using 0.75mm CSA cable with a maximum load of 6A. For 10A you need 1mm minimum.

 

Some use Powercon connections (blue and grey connections that look like speaker plugs) - these are rated at 20A (with appropriate cable) but the older (more popular) versions are not rated to connected / disconnected under load so, by rights, the circuit should be dead before you plug / unplug them. Pain as it means doing the wiring first then powering it all up to be addressed afterwards, rather than wire it, power it, address it and off to the next fixture!

 

Pedantic stuff and it may seem pointless, but I was always taught if you're going to break the rules at least know which ones you're breaking and why you're breaking them.

[AndrewPowell]

We've recently been going down this route too, but are lucky enough to have recently new tech installed anyway. We had some hot power & DMX in our rig, so we could install LED's without any infra changes.

 

You've had some really great advice already. One thing I don't think i've seen asked though is - Do you have any Hot power or DMX currently in the rigging? And what dimmers do you have? As mentioned, some dimmers can be set to 'hot power' so that they provide a stable power supply, instead of being dimmable. If your dimmers are new enough and good enough, then this is going to be the best bet.

 

Otherwise, it really depends on what fixtures you are looking at. Depending on how much power they draw, you can likely link a few of them together, and only need a couple of circuits actually putting in. It shouldn't cost a fortune to run some 16a circuits up there.

 

If you need any advice on fixtures, i know you said you'd look at it further down the line, but its worth thinking about now. Let us know the size of your space, what you currently have and what you ideally want, and i can recommend some stuff.

 

I am an event technician professionally and run our school theatre too. I'm pretty experienced, but admittedly, usually on much bigger professional rigs, but happy to help

[TheHyperTechie]

Same issue here. The lighting wiring etc is 30+ years old. Total replacement is gonna cost a lot.

 

We've rented a system for this years show.

 

Our system is very old, and is starting to show signs of 'giving up' also. Do you mind sharing how much it costs to rent a system as you mentioned?