[ms office - o365] Office 365 - A3

[sippo]

Please can someone clarify something for me?

 

We have recently purchased A3, and our supplier has told us we also need an OVS agreement to have Office installed locally to desktops.

 

Is this correct?

[snagrat]

A3 includes the desktop apps.

 

However you would need to license everyone with A3 who you wanted to use these apps.

[minimoo]

How have you licensed A3 / doing licensing

 

I've just spent an hour on the phone with Microsoft and their licensing team; On the basis of that chat, I'd be inclined to think the supplier is giving valid information here. I've pretty much reached the conclusion I can't see how a lot of schools could take out a CSP only agreement.

[Boredguy]

I'm sure there was a caveat previously that to use the Office365 installation via the A1 Plus For Students/Faulty on school devices you had to ensure you had a valid volume licence agreement which covered the Office deployment in the first place as it was not devices that just 1 user would be using as part of their "Device" activations (same way that Shared Computer Activations doesn't come out of the users installation count because it's assumed you have a suitable volume licence).

 

We've worked on that basis for a while and I've not seen anything to correct my thinking so far.

[Steve21]

Is this correct?

 

I mean I'd clarify the above posts a bit further personally, as feel the answer is "it depends":

 

A3 includes desktop installation "of 365 Offline" for all A3 licensed users, if you're still using an older office it's not supported/licensed. If users aren't licensed with A3 (for example, only staff not students), all student devices would still need licensing etc.

 

And even if A3 + 365 is used on desktops, remember this doesn't remove the need for things like CALs from the desktop pack

 

Steve

[minimoo]

"A3 includes desktop installation "of 365 Offline" for all A3 licensed users, if you're still using an older office it's not supported/licensed. "

 

... depending on what agreement it's licensed under and on where it is being used.

 

there's currently OVS-ES (schools) / EES ( that large trusts might be able to access) and CSP as the agreements that schools might look at. CSP would seem to be the more problematic agreement as the terms are different.

[Steve21]

"A3 includes desktop installation "of 365 Offline" for all A3 licensed users, if you're still using an older office it's not supported/licensed. "

 

... depending on what agreement it's licensed under and on where it is being used.

 

there's currently OVS-ES (schools) / EES ( that large trusts might be able to access) and CSP as the agreements that schools might look at. CSP would seem to be the more problematic agreement as the terms are different.

 

Not sure how you mean really... if it’s A3 license it’s A3 no matter how you licensed it

 

OVS or CSP etc is just the method of getting the license, not changing what you get from it

 

Unless I misunderstand what you mean?

 

Steve

[minimoo]

The product terms for OVS-ES/EES give 'lab and library use' rights:

 

2.4.2 Lab and Library Use in OVS-ES

Institutions with Microsoft 365 Apps for enterprise User SLs assigned to all faculty and staff, Education Qualified Users, or Knowledge Workers in OVS-ES may install Office Professional Plus software on any open access lab or library within the Institution’s Organization. Use of the software is otherwise subject to the License terms for Office Professional Plus.

 

 

The CSP agreement terms don't give those rights. There's actually quite a few differences between OVS/EES and CSP - to the extent that i'd probably expect that it would be very difficult for a number of UK schools to be in a position to move to a CSP agreement. If your on the edugeek discord, feel free to message me as i've been banging on about it for the last few weeks

[Steve21]

But that’s labs or library (Edit to clarify - Think of it like a 121 scheme, that then has shared areas for people to use i.e. not teaching rooms), still doesn’t cover things like teacher rooms, admin staff, servers etc which would need licensing separate to A3 etc if you’re still using old versions on

 

Steve

Edited August 3, 2020 by Steve21

[Ditto]

Is this thread the perfect demonstration of what's wrong with Microsoft licensing? (Rhetorical question!). Fortunately, I only had to deal with MS licensing for a short while and a simple question never had a simple answer. This and other similar stories abound and promises of simpler licensing have never been met. It all seems to be ever more complicated.

[foofighterjim]

I've just fallen foul of this.

 

Moved to M365 A3 last week and wondered where my Office keys had disappeared to in VLSC. We are now testing M365 apps for desktop deployment, using shared device activation and roaming tokens. Not ideal as I would have liked much more prep time and given staff a heads up, just hoping SIMS plays ball with the M365 version of Excel.

 

The biggest problem though, is that Windows 10 is now also licensed the same way i.e. per user! So I'm now trying to figure out how we actually activate Windows whenever we rebuild a computer. Still, my fault I suppose for not fully understanding that CSP would cause so many problems and not clarifying things that I didn't know would be an issue.

[free780]

With Windows 10 licensing I think you can continue using KMS or AD activation.

You just need the KMS key.

Students get an A3 Windows 10 licence and I think it's part of the Faculty A3.

For shared devices I just think the first user who logs on licences Windows. If you use the subscription based licensing via intune (can work on hybrid devices I think). It will be a pain to test if you have other methods already deployed. You almost need to test it on a home Internet connection.

Device Based Activation for Office was only put in a year ago which requires AAD device join.

The end game is 1:1 for staff and students.

[Steve21]

I'm pretty sure you can also request free device based licensing for Win10/A3 (edu only) as I read about it before when flicking through some reddit threads

 

Might be worth a shot asking your supplier

 

Steve

[foofighterjim]

Cool, I'll get on the phone! That will save a lot of work and can just concentrate on Office 365 then.

 

We have the added complication of our O365 tenancy being federated with RM Unify so using Azure Connect and SSO is out of the question for now. In our testing we seem to be able to activate Office fine as that redirects users to Unify for sign in, its an extra step but as long as it works reliably! Just starting to trouble shoot why the token roaming hasn't redirected as specified in our config.xml, fun times.

[minimoo]

@foofighterjim @Steve21 @free780 - I'm sorry to say I think you'll find it's a mess ;/

 

Steve21: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployoffice/device-based-licensing - For education customers, the license is Microsoft 365 Apps for Education (device) and is available only through Enrollment for Education Solutions (EES).

 

I believe you'll find that the device based licensing is only available through EES i.e. NOT ovs-es or CSP

 

When I managed to get to talk to Microsoft's education licensing team, who normally deal with partners about this, my verbal question of, "Presumably once you cease the OVS agreement, the right to leave the activation key in KMS ceases" - was met with a 'yes' I believe. I don't think think I got a reply to my follow up comment of "I'm guessing no customer would know this and probably carry on without realising"

 

The other thing to bear in mind:

 

In CSP Agreement: Windows 10 Home is not a qualifying OS for Windows 10 Enterprise A3/A5 upgrade USLs. Minimum requirement is Windows 10 Pro.

 

Have you ever bought a pc/laptop using Home as a qualifying product?

 

[i might be wrong but i'd given them a hard time against the information they've provided over the years (was a single opportunity) e.g. I'd asked whether http://download.microsoft.com/download/7/7/1/771d8923-9b5e-40ee-86d9-213e0f41b2e8/AcademicGrantLetter(StudentCAL-ParentGuardianAccess)(NA)(ENG)(Jul2006)CR.doc [which states is is future proof still applies]

[Steve21]

@foofighterjim @Steve21 @free780 - I'm sorry to say I think you'll find it's a mess ;/

 

Steve21: https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/deployoffice/device-based-licensing - For education customers, the license is Microsoft 365 Apps for Education (device) and is available only through Enrollment for Education Solutions (EES).

 

I believe you'll find that the device based licensing is only available through EES i.e. NOT ovs-es or CSP

 

I don't think it's a mess personally (no more than normal MS licenses), just think people are getting mixed up with what they want vs what's actually available to buy currently

 

If you're going down the MS A3 route (again not Office A3 as in OP) you have to use EES as it's never been available on OVS, so you can get your device based licenses free

 

If you're going down OVS, you don't have the option for MS A3 unless you're doing a hybrid, so you still have the KMS etc available for normal office and personal "plus" licenses on the normal 40:1 ratio

 

If you're going down the CSP route, you're normally going cloud without servers (At the start they didn't even have the option to offer Server licenses on-prem, so had to double up licensing again, unless that's changed recently?), so you'll need to use either the lab rights mentioned previously again on the 40:1 ratio, or user based

 

Basically it's pick a route, and that's what's available unless you're double licensing until it's changed anytime soon

 

As a side note, Remember shared device activation has never officially been in the UK, it's always been using US "tricks"

 

Steve

[minimoo]

Steve,

 

Microsoft have a technical issue (I think) that they can't offer an upgrade from education edition from home [windows 10] - So that means that school's must have Windows 10 Pro licensed on their PC's. Some schools might have done that - but since that, but since windows XP - "Home Edition" has been a qualifying product to use with a volume licensing agreement to "upgrade". So if a school has bought a device with a home license on it (to save money) then used their OVS agreement to upgrade it to Pro in school - that would not qualify for the CSP licensing [presumably the fix for that would be to buy a windows 10 pro license under some agreement first]. I don't think that the schools will necessarily understand/have that made clear - I suspect there will be some schools that don't realise as they've left their old OVS-ES KMS key in Active Directory.

 

That issue makes it more challenging for schools to ensure they've done the correct thing. There are perks available under OVS-ES e.g. Dev tools / MDOP etc that some schools might use - but equally under CSP and Microsoft A3 there's minecraft - but you lose the first perks.

 

One other thing:

 

the 40:1 ratio - it's not always 40:1 - depending on what you license it can be 15:1

 

Desktop bundle "Microsft 365 apps + windows 10 education upgrade" - is 40:1

Office A3 / Office A5 is 40:1

however if you license "Office Professional Plus" or "Microsoft 365 Apps for Enterprise" seperately, the ratio is 15:1

[Steve21]

Mini you’re trying to make this a lot more complex than it needs to be, If the school is choosing to drop their OVS/KMS you need to make sure you’re picking something that replaces it, the options are as I mentioned above with the caveats

 

You can argue round and round that one plan has an item another doesn’t but I’ll refer you back to my first line on that last post (wants vs availability) and leave it there as this will go on forever otherwise

 

Steve

[minimoo]

Jim joined the o365 thread talking about his move to M365 A3 on CSP, so I'll be interested to find out if the supplier confirms to foofighterjim what Microsoft said verbally and didn't put into an email that the KMS key isn't available

 

I'll copy/paste what Microsoft clarified about OVS-ES vs CSP:

 

Under OVS-ES you will have the ability to reach the M365 A3 value by adding the certain products individually. But once again you will not have Minecraft Education Edition under this type of Agreement. Windows 10 Home licenses are qualifying underlying OS for Windows 10 Education upgrade. And here, below is the Lab and Library use right you gain with OVS-ES;

 

 

In CSP Agreement: Windows 10 Home is not a qualifying OS for Windows 10 Enterprise A3/A5 upgrade USLs. Minimum requirement is Windows 10 Pro.

 

You do not have installation rights for Office Professional Plus instead of Office 365 ProPlus.

 

If you license the EQU count with Microsoft 365 A3/A5, the faculty and staff (Except Students) will gain the Special User Rights listed below;

 

 

There is no SA coverage in CSP, hence MDOP will not be available.

 

Azure DevTools for Teaching would require a separate subscription since this is not a Volume Licensing Agreement.

 

Here is an article for Windows 10 Subscription Activation https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/deployment/windows-10-subscription-activation

 

In terms of the 40:1 ratio and 15:1 ratio, "A qualifying product license enables an institution to order either 15 or 40 student use benefit licenses, dependent on the qualifying product. If a qualifying product is purchased via a suite/bundle, the supported faculty:student ratio is up to 1:40. If the qualifying product is purchased standalone, the supported faculty:student ratio is up to 1:15."

 

 

Unfortunately the conversation about the removing a OVS-ES KMS key from active directory when you cease the OVS-ES VL agreement was only verbal.

Edited August 12, 2020 by minimoo

[foofighterjim]

My supplier has replied saying that there is no KMS option at all regarding Windows 10 on CSP, it is user activation only.

 

 

Basically it's pick a route, and that's what's available unless you're double licensing until it's changed anytime soon

 

Indeed, when I spoke to our supplier I basically just made sure that everything that was in our OVS was being covered by the M365 A3 license. Everything was checked over, Office and Windows 10 were included, little did I know the nuance of this being per user activation, so we also have an OVS for our Server licensing now. The aforementioned was cheaper than sticking with the OVS and adding all the optional extras such as Azure P1 & Intune (to name two). In the end this will be the right thing for us but I've just got to get around the short term issues of making us legal.

 

 

Microsoft have a technical issue (I think) that they can't offer an upgrade from education edition from home [windows 10] - So that means that school's must have Windows 10 Pro licensed on their PC's. Some schools might have done that - but since that, but since windows XP - "Home Edition" has been a qualifying product to use with a volume licensing agreement to "upgrade". So if a school has bought a device with a home license on it (to save money) then used their OVS agreement to upgrade it to Pro in school - that would not qualify for the CSP licensing [presumably the fix for that would be to buy a windows 10 pro license under some agreement first]. I don't think that the schools will necessarily understand/have that made clear - I suspect there will be some schools that don't realise as they've left their old OVS-ES KMS key in Active Directory.

 

Basically this ^^^, this was brought to my attention yesterday afternoon. The problem being that the majority of our computers don't have any indication of licensed OS version as the keys were embedded, we of course took these computers and immediately rebuilt them with MDT using our KMS key, so I'm now going through years of invoices and quotes to try and find what licenses we actually have for these devices.

 

 

In CSP Agreement: Windows 10 Home is not a qualifying OS for Windows 10 Enterprise A3/A5 upgrade USLs. Minimum requirement is Windows 10 Pro.

 

Correct.

 

 

Unfortunately the conversation about the removing a OVS-ES KMS key from active directory when you cease the OVS-ES VL agreement was only verbal.

 

I haven't had communication to this effect but it stands to reason, we no longer have the license agreement that the KMS key was generated against so must be removed.

Edited August 13, 2020 by foofighterjim