BLUESKY:So, if you were setting up your school from scratch, what MIS would you buy?

[matt40k]

Unfree your data by sending it into the cloud, where you can't access the raw database any more, and are relying on a company to keep their servers running. No longer can you write custom applications to read the database.

 

Key is to make sure you have an API or something that you can use before you purchase.

[TechMonkey]

Unfree your data by sending it into the cloud, where you can't access the raw database any more, and are relying on a company to keep their servers running. No longer can you write custom applications to read the database.

 

TIL the only thing more annoying than a 2 column pdf is a 3 column pdf.

 

Or choose a provider that allows you access. We are using a hosted service and have SQL Manager connected to check the underlying database, can connect PowerBI and can create our own SRSS reports. We also have API access. If a provider does not allow you to do this, don't go with them.

 

As for relying on a company keeping their servers running, if they can't they will either have a bad rep (MLS anyone) or will fail. I have worked with databases for going on 10 years off and on and I would still trust a company with actual SQL developers and database experts then what I can cobble together.

[PotNoodleTech]

Lots of interesting posts going on here!

 

I wouldn't be averse to looking at a cloud solution. The problem with moving everything into the cloud is you are relying totally 100% on your fat pipe and if anything goes wrong with that then the whole school is screwed.

 

Also regarding costs - you'd have to upgrade your broadband line to go full cloud, and given that the difference between a 100mb and a 1000mb line is circa £6k / year for a single line, you won't actually save any money as you're spending the 6k/year saved on servers, on broadband, and that's not even with a redundant connection.

 

I'd have to think long and hard about it - having had our main fibre line cut through by an over-enthusiastic gardener with a chainsaw, I know all to well that things can happen with your broadband line that are totally beyond your control!

 

The server room on the other hand, is totally within my control.

[Michael]

I've worked on numerous projects looking into this, but ultimately Schools, Academies and MATs should be tendering out such requirements to a short list of suppliers -

 

- There are undoubtedly cost savings on licensing, support, as well as your physical/virtual servers. Licensing should also factor in the likes of SQL Server, CALs and Windows Server, not just the MIS license.

- The cost of replacing a server every 3-5 years can be very costly, especially if a third party is required.

- What's the level of support like, how responsive are they?

- What does the development roadmap look like - more features could arguably be interpreted as better value for money over time.

- What does the MIS offer out the box, be it standard or optional modules? How does this compare to the existing MIS provision?

- Can the new provision offer the likes of SSO, or other integrated options (API) or natively included modules?

[Ditto]

We've run purely cloud based from the start (3.5 years) and we are nowhere near 1000mb - even 100mb is pushing it. We have some built in redundancy on the internet connection, but I can run core functions on a 3G phone. Ultimately each of us has to do the costs versus benefits versus functionality. For us, non-cloud would mean, space for the hardware (not so much I guess), cabling, power, an administrator, backup strategies, upgrade cycles, disaster recovery processes and more. With the current solution (on Amazon) for about a 1/6th of what you quote for the line, I avoid all that infrastructure expense.

[mavhc]

Probably helpful if people mention the size of school they're talking about, can you run everything on one server, plus the old one as a spare? How expensive is your server? What MIS did you move from/to?

[TechMonkey]

Lots of interesting posts going on here!

 

I wouldn't be averse to looking at a cloud solution. The problem with moving everything into the cloud is you are relying totally 100% on your fat pipe and if anything goes wrong with that then the whole school is screwed.

 

Also regarding costs - you'd have to upgrade your broadband line to go full cloud, and given that the difference between a 100mb and a 1000mb line is circa £6k / year for a single line, you won't actually save any money as you're spending the 6k/year saved on servers, on broadband, and that's not even with a redundant connection.

 

I'd have to think long and hard about it - having had our main fibre line cut through by an over-enthusiastic gardener with a chainsaw, I know all to well that things can happen with your broadband line that are totally beyond your control!

 

The server room on the other hand, is totally within my control.

 

We weighed it up and decided the benefit of going of site out weighed the disadvantages. So if a digger goes through the cable we set up a hotspot temporarily, or get someone to work off site using their own internet connection. Our connection has been unavailable once in the 5 years I have been here (ignoring things like power outages or system down time when nothing is available). We have looked at a redundant Internet connection but currently it is just too expensive, weighed against the number of outages we have had in the past, the length of downtime we would suffer and the workarounds we can put in place. We are out in the sticks though, in a town I'm sure it would be a lot easier.

 

The other thing is to reverse the scenario, what if your site is down (power/fire/major outage) what would you do? With off site we do the same as if the internet is down, hotspot or people work from home. With MIS on-site there isn't that option.

 

As for bandwidth, I wouldn't say our usage has gone up massively because we have gone to a hosted MIS. Over the past 30 days we have had a spike up to 60Mbit/s but average (eyeballed, not mathematically correct) is around 15-20Mbit/s. Also take into account we have started using O365 at the same time, but not across the whole of the school, so that will have raised it a bit.

 

I would say it is just a different mindset, it took me a bit to get my head round it. Yes we control the server room but we don't have total control, the server room is still at the mercy of the whims of fate, nature and gremlins. So put part of the issue on someone who has better scales of economy to hire dedicated professionals, have better redundancy and scale of kit and have someone that we can yell at off the bat if things go wrong, rather than stabbing in the dark myself.

Edited February 12, 2018 by TechMonkey

[CloudGeek]

 

As for bandwidth, I wouldn't say our usage has gone up massively because we have gone to a hosted MIS. Over the past 30 days we have had a spike up to 60Mbit/s but average (eyeballed, not mathematically correct) is around 15-20Mbit/s.

 

If you simply relocated Windows App based thick client MIS - yes, you are right!

 

Try true Cloud web App based MIS. You only need a fraction of this -10Mbits/s for a secondary is sufficient. A primary need less, 2Mbits/s.

[TechMonkey]

If you simply relocated Windows App based thick client MIS - yes, you are right!

 

Try true Cloud web App based MIS. You only need a fraction of this -10Mbits/s for a secondary is sufficient. A primary need less, 2Mbits/s.

Yep, that reflects our findings. We have probably over provisioned our pipe due to concerns over bandwidth and it is nice to not need it.

[mavhc]

Main reason to let the supplier host it is they can deal with their terrible software. Of course they'll still blame you when it's not working, "must be the proxy/filter/browser/extensions"

 

Peak usage is the main issue, if your 60 teachers are all trying to load a complex web app at the same time, web apps aren't good at realising when one file out of 100 has failed to download.

[TechMonkey]

Main reason to let the supplier host it is they can deal with their terrible software. Of course they'll still blame you when it's not working, "must be the proxy/filter/browser/extensions"

 

Peak usage is the main issue, if your 60 teachers are all trying to load a complex web app at the same time, web apps aren't good at realising when one file out of 100 has failed to download.

 

That's why we have the ability to bypass all those to prove to them it isn't anything our end. & so far I have only had one time this has happened and it was our filter blocking a file, but their error reporting wasn't showing it.

 

Not sure I understand what you mean by "web apps aren't good at realising when one file out of 100 has failed to download". Our peak usage, registers would be the biggest time of staff to use it all at once, shows no blip on our web traffic. If a web app is developed properly it shouldn't have any issue scaling from 1 to 10 to 60 to 600, as long as the backend can take it, which if using a hosted solution is their issue to worry about.

[Banjo]

Groupcall is full automated. You can use AnyComms if you want to.

 

Look up B2B open. It's B2B but it's designed for non-SIMS schools.

 

Does this work with all MIS? We use B2B (Phase 2+) and are looking to pull statutory assessment data from our SIMS schools via B2B. We have had issues (bugs) so far with data not going in correctly on our test system. Hopefully the lastest release will fix this. However, we don't pull any data for other MIS automatically into ONE - only via the school census 3 times a year. This adds admin tasks to schools - exclusions have to be sent via paper copies, EWOs less efficient, the LA FSM checking service may not pick up where pupils are if they have moved school etc.

 

We have schools with; SIMS, RM, ScholarPack, Progresso and Facility - just need Arbor and I'll shout Bingo!

 

We have tried importing files from other MIS manually.

 

RM file show errors

ScholarPack goes in :-)

Progresso > no export file routine

Facility - school(s) didn't buy the export .dll so no export

 

Question - Where does Exporter 'dump' the files at the LA end? Do they go onto the B2B server and into the import queue?

[matt40k]

Might want to speak with @GREED re: GroupCall. Not used SIMS\ONE for years, I've heard its got better, but its still in the dark ages from the rest of the world.

[GREED]

@Banjo allow me to help you with your Xporter/XVault questions:

 

Does this work with all MIS?

 

Yes it does, at least with the MIS' you mention below.

 

We use B2B (Phase 2+) and are looking to pull statutory assessment data from our SIMS schools via B2B.

 

Assessment is always tricky as your schools need to ensure they are all using the same formats/setup of assessment, same mark scales etc. Statutory is mostly fine, however just to be aware Assessment is a PITA when trying to collate from disparate systems and disparate assessment methodologies.

 

Question - Where does Exporter 'dump' the files at the LA end? Do they go onto the B2B server and into the import queue?

 

Xporter is the tech that pulls the data, and for an LA it dumps it to our XVault database (or rather, your XVault database) which is the aggregation piece. You can use this (We have a reporting front end for this) to review etc, and then you can output the the file format that Capita One needs - so you get all data in one side, and a single file set out the other.

 

Hope this helps, best thing to do would be get in touch with our guys who can go through the intricate details.

 

Graham

[Banjo]

@Banjo allow me to help you with your Xporter/XVault questions:

Assessment is always tricky as your schools need to ensure they are all using the same formats/setup of assessment, same mark scales etc. Statutory is mostly fine, however just to be aware Assessment is a PITA when trying to collate from disparate systems and disparate assessment methodologies.

 

We were just looking to pick up EY, Phonics, KS1 & KS2 stat. assessments. The same Aspects for SIMS will go into ONE which makes things easy for us. Schools type them into SIMS during the day they appear in ONE that evening. Other MIS would be more tricky.

 

Xporter/XVault questions?

Does this mean the LA has to have software installed at its end or just at the school end? Have you got a flow chart you can upload to show the movement of the data?

[GREED]

SIMS is generally fine for assessment for those.

 

So Xporter would be installed against the MIS database (SIMS, in school or if hosted, wherever - For other MIS's we pull via their APIs). This feeds to the XVault database, which is usually hosted at the LA. That database then aggregates as needed, before outputting to the Capita One file (so many inputs, from many MIS's), into XVault, and output is a single fileset that One likes. Simples

[Banjo]

SIMS is generally fine for assessment for those.

 

So Xporter would be installed against the MIS database (SIMS, in school or if hosted, wherever - For other MIS's we pull via their APIs). This feeds to the XVault database, which is usually hosted at the LA. That database then aggregates as needed, before outputting to the Capita One file (so many inputs, from many MIS's), into XVault, and output is a single fileset that One likes. Simples

 

Which LA's have this with ONE ?

[GREED]

Which LA's have this with ONE ?

 

Should probably take this offline as is commercially sensitive. Will PM

[nicholab]

I have a question to add in the this discussion how have SIMS migrants delt with the FMS part of the system?

[PotNoodleTech]

I have a question to add in the this discussion how have SIMS migrants delt with the FMS part of the system?

 

That's a great question, especially if like ours your FMS is linked into the LEA?

[mavhc]

Why are LAs still using FMS? Have they not upgraded their server from Windows 3.1? Yay, got rid of SIMS installs, oh, still need FMS? That's the worst part.

[PhilNeal]

@mavhc - end users are concerned with what a product does and not the technology. FMS is pretty well unique in catering for LA/School requirements of a mix of local/central processing, payroll inter changes etc

[mavhc]

It's unique in crashing because of having the wrong printer driver, or not having admin rights, or random other stuff I have to deal with all the time. Well at least it's free, can't complain. Oh wait.

[matt40k]

Personally I've not heard of a good FMS replacement, horrid as FMS is. SIMS \ FMS integration is only personnel? Pretty sure they did some work ages ago so FMS integrates with non-SIMS systems. Not sure I've heard of anyone doing it however, but it should be possible to integrate your HR\payroll system or whatever.

[PhilNeal]

FMS has a flexible import/export facility that allows central payments to be exchanged with other systems in LAs.