Put young children on DNA list, urge police

[FN-GM]

Another point with ID cards it is a common ID everyone will have. When you withdraw money from the bank they will know exactly who you are, this can prevent crime. When buying alcohol you know that the buyer is not underage.

[torledo]

 

As for ID cards - so what if you had to carry one - makes no difference except to criminals.

 

The "personal freedoms" I'd like to see are things like being able to walk down the street unaccosted, the right to park my car without it getting nicked/vandalised etc, the right to not get burgled - anything the police can do to help with this would be good - if having a dna database helps them catch criminals quicker so be it. I'm with Zak on this - it's only a problem if you have something to hide!

 

ID cards do blimming well matter because i'm going to have to pay out of my pocket 35.., 40 ...,50... quid whatever the final figure comes down. It also means all sorts of additional information can and will be added at later stages, and who knows how many agencies will eventually have access to that information.

 

Putting aside the personal freedom issues what are the proven benefits of ID cards. Has it proven to combat terrorism ? No. It's costly, it's unneeded and it's quite sinister the way it's being phased in. By the end of the year airport workers and foreign nationals outside the EU will have to carry one. If that's not stigmatising non-EU nationals and downright unfair on these groups then what is ?

 

And guess what...ID cards and the dna database will have little or no impact on the personal freedoms you want protected that you've listed. Those things you talk about can and will continue to happen irrespective of the introduction of these huge databases and bits of plastic.

 

As witch has already said it's nice to be able to walk down the street and for an official of some sort or copper NOT to know who you are. With the prevalence of cctv, the moves toward biometrics and new wireless technologies such as RFID it's going to be more difficult in the future not to become a tagged and bagged human parcel where all sorts of people know who you are or where you're going 24/7.

[jcollings]

ID cards do blimming well matter because i'm going to have to pay out of my pocket 35.., 40 ...,50... quid whatever the final figure comes down. It also means all sorts of additional information can and will be added at later stages, and who knows how many agencies will eventually have access to that information.

 

Putting aside the personal freedom issues what are the proven benefits of ID cards. Has it proven to combat terrorism ? No. It's costly, it's unneeded and it's quite sinister the way it's being phased in. By the end of the year airport workers and foreign nationals outside the EU will have to carry one. If that's not stigmatising non-EU nationals and downright unfair on these groups then what is ?

 

And guess what...ID cards and the dna database will have little or no impact on the personal freedoms you want protected that you've listed. Those things you talk about can and will continue to happen irrespective of the introduction of these huge databases and bits of plastic.

 

As witch has already said it's nice to be able to walk down the street and for an official of some sort or copper NOT to know who you are. With the prevalence of cctv, the moves toward biometrics and new wireless technologies such as RFID it's going to be more difficult in the future not to become a tagged and bagged human parcel where all sorts of people know who you are or where you're going 24/7.

 

You can't possibly say it won't have an impact 'cos we haven't had them to find out.

 

As I said previously having them doesn't make a difference to you walking down the street. I don't think having them will equip the police with psychic powers so they'll be none the wiser!

[torledo]

Another point with ID cards it is a common ID everyone will have. When you withdraw money from the bank they will know exactly who you are, this can prevent crime. When buying alcohol you know that the buyer is not underage.

 

I'll leave aside the fact that ID cards will have initially absolutely nothing to do with withdrawing money from an ATM. Oh, and i already have something that i can show when i need to withdraw more money than the ATM can spew out.....it's called a passport. Or in the case of many a photocard driving license.

 

And it's never been known for a person genuinely over the age of 18 to buy booze for 14 year olds has it ?

[torledo]

You can't possibly say it won't have an impact 'cos we haven't had them to find out.

 

As I said previously having them doesn't make a difference to you walking down the street. I don't think having them will equip the police with psychic powers so they'll be none the wiser!

 

Thin end of a wedge.

[jcollings]

Oh, and i already have something that i can show when i need to withdraw more money than the ATM can spew out.....it's called a passport. Or in the case of many a photocard driving license.

 

And it's never been known for a person genuinely over the age of 18 to buy booze for 14 year olds has it ?

 

I don't have a passport and the amount of things that ask for one is crazy. Lots of people don't have a driving licence. A national ID card gives 1 common form of ID.

[jcollings]

Thin end of a wedge.

 

OK - for that matter - what info is stored on your photocard driving licence? You think you know whats on it but you don't know for sure. Any info could be put on it or in your passport for that matter by stealth.

 

Thin end of a wedge is just tabloid reactionary nonsense.

[torledo]

I don't have a passport and the amount of things that ask for one is crazy. Lots of people don't have a driving licence. A national ID card gives 1 common form of ID.

 

Exactly. The passport is the evidence required for various things. So if you needed one you'd get one....you're entitled to a passport, you should have even if you keep at the bottom of a drawer collecting and never intend to go on holiday....

 

You're trying to tell me that you're waiting for the cure all that is the National ID card to come and make you're daily life worth living. C'mon.

 

I don't happen to have a photocard driving license, i've got a paper one and use it fine wherever i need to display it. I didn't actually approve of photocard driving license or fingerprints on passports....but if we've already got photo id why on earth do we need another piece of plastic and the billions it costs. If you're such a big fan of the fuzz wouldn't you prefer for some of those billions to go in their direction so that they can prevent you from being accosted. Or give you more speeding fines. Whatever rocks you're boat.

Edited April 5, 2008 by torledo

[localzuk]

I take the opposite view - I think the amount of "abuse" will be small compared to the crimes it will help solve. I think the majority of police services are good and honest and do the job well.

 

From personal experience, I hold the opposite view. The overwhelming amount of evidence of systematic abuse by the police is a key indicator that new systems will be abused too.

[jcollings]

From personal experience, I hold the opposite view. The overwhelming amount of evidence of systematic abuse by the police is a key indicator that new systems will be abused too.

 

That's rather the point - "the overwhelming evidence" doesn't exist. There are a minor amount of issues that are over reported which take no account of the many thousands of hours and cases of solid police work that is done.

[jcollings]

Exactly. The passport is the evidence required for various things. So if you needed one you'd get one....you're entitled to a passport, you should have even if you keep at the bottom of a drawer collecting and never intend to go on holiday....

 

You're trying to tell me that you're waiting for the cure all that is the National ID card to come and make you're daily life worth living. C'mon.

 

 

So I have to have a passport to function now? Why should I - I don't need or want one.

 

And no I don't thin it's a cure all but I don't think it causes this massive loss of freedom that everyone bangs on about.

[FN-GM]

The thing is ID card can prove who a person is a lot quicker because everyone will have one. How many people do you know who carry round a passport? Driving licences can be forged pretty easy from all accounts. If ID card come into effect they should be used to confirm your ID when using Chip & Pin, it will only take a few sounds but can stop someone using your card and steal your hard earned money from your account.

[torledo]

The thing is ID card can prove who a person is a lot quicker because everyone will have one. How many people do you know who carry round a passport? Driving licences can be forged pretty easy from all accounts. If ID card come into effect they should be used to confirm your ID when using Chip & Pin, it will only take a few sounds but can stop someone using your card and steal your hard earned money from your account.

 

Opening a bank account or the other things for which you normally require a passport are not everyday tasks.....so you don't need to carry you're passport around. What possible need can you have for carrying something around everyday just to prove who you are. Unless ofcourse you're expecting old bill to stop and search or pull you over while you're driving on a daily basis.

 

Why do i need to worry about needing to prove i am on a regular basis. On the very rare occasions when i need to show who i am i've already got proof. Most people don't think, great i've got an id card in my pocket, now i feel safe wow how convenient.....It's more like, damn now i've got another thing in my pocket that i can't lose or have stolen. Difference is if i lose any of the other cards i carry, noones going to charge me 40 odd quid for a replacement.

 

Oh, and i've never had anything stolen from my bank accoount in more than 20 years. Pre or post chip and pin. It's not something i have sleepless nights about.

Edited April 5, 2008 by torledo

[FN-GM]

Opening a bank account or the other things for which you normally require a passport are not everyday tasks.....so you don't need to carry you're passport around. What possible need can you have for carrying something around everyday just to prove who you are. Unless ofcourse you're expecting old bill to stop and search or pull you over while you're driving on a daily basis.

 

Why do i need to worry about needing to prove i am on a regular basis. On the very rare occasions when i need to show who i am i've already got proof. Most people don't think, great i've got an id card in my pocket, now i feel safe wow how convenient.....It's more like, damn now i've got another thing in my pocket that i can't lose or have stolen. Difference is if i lose any of the other cards i carry, noones going to charge me 40 odd quid for a replacement.

 

 

If your card got stolen someone could possibly use this. If we had a national recognised system this could be reduced.

[torledo]

If your card got stolen someone could possibly use this. If we had a national recognised system this could be reduced.

 

Judging by the direction thhis thread iss going i'm not going to convince you otherwise, am i ?

[jcollings]

Opening a bank account or the other things for which you normally require a passport are not everyday tasks.....so you don't need to carry you're passport around. What possible need can you have for carrying something around everyday just to prove who you are. Unless ofcourse you're expecting old bill to stop and search or pull you over while you're driving on a daily basis.

 

Why do i need to worry about needing to prove i am on a regular basis. On the very rare occasions when i need to show who i am i've already got proof. Most people don't think, great i've got an id card in my pocket, now i feel safe wow how convenient.....It's more like, damn now i've got another thing in my pocket that i can't lose or have stolen. Difference is if i lose any of the other cards i carry, noones going to charge me 40 odd quid for a replacement.

 

Oh, and i've never had anything stolen from my bank accoount in more than 20 years. Pre or post chip and pin. It's not something i have sleepless nights about.

 

 

But how do I open a bank account - I don't have a passport or a photocard driving licence for the sake of argument. A national system that everyone is part of makes sense.

[jcollings]

Judging by the direction thhis thread iss going i'm not going to convince you otherwise, am i ?

 

nor vice versa - but debate is good and quite enjoyable ;-)

[FN-GM]

Its a no win situation really we both have good and valid points

[witch]

although you maybe law abiding how can others tell that you are?

Why do they need too? If I have done something that I need to be pulled up for, fine, but what worries me is being stopped and asked for ID for NO reason at all.

And as for DNA records - the police do not destroy DNA in quite a lot of cases that have been well documented.

 

ID cards may not have been used in this country before but they are used in many other countries and there is no evidence from these countries that they have reduced crime, terrorism or anything else in any shape or form (the US doesn't have them - with all their paranoia, doesn't that tell you something?)

This is the sort of thing that worries me (and this wasn't from an anti - ID website, either):

 

"ID cards are established for a variety of reasons. Race, politics and religion were often at the heart of ID systems. The threat of insurgents or political extremists, and the exercise of religious discrimination have been all too common as motivation for the establishment of ID systems which would force enemies of the State into registration, or make them vulnerable in the open without proper documents. In Pakistan, the cards are used to enforce a quota system, In China, they are used as a tool of social engineering.

 

In the United Kingdom, current proposals for a national ID card are fuelled by the need to develop a document which is acceptable to other European countries, as well as a belief that the scheme might help fight crime. In Australia, the purpose of the proposed card was to fight tax evasion, and, in New Zealand, to establish Social Welfare entitlement. The Dutch card has the dual purpose of helping to improve government administrative efficiency, while playing a key role in dismantling border controls.Of the 25 countries that have been most adversely affected by terrorism since 1986, eighty per cent have national identity cards, one third of which incorporate biometrics. This research was unable to uncover any instance where the presence of an identity card system in those countries was seen as a significant deterrent to terrorist activity.”

 

At the heart of such plans is a parallel increase in police powers. Even in democratic nations, police retain the right to demand ID on pain of detention."

 

Once we have an ID card system, however well meaning the reasons in the first place, we have something that can be abused by the government - or future governments

[jcollings]

Once we have an ID card system, however well meaning the reasons in the first place, we have something that can be abused by the government - or future governments

 

This is where I have an issue - ID card or not oppresive reigemes flourish. I don't think there is a relationship. If a government wants to impose itself it will do it regardless of card carrying as China, Zimbabwe and Iraq to name but a few show.

[localzuk]

This is where I have an issue - ID card or not oppresive reigemes flourish. I don't think there is a relationship. If a government wants to impose itself it will do it regardless of card carrying as China, Zimbabwe and Iraq to name but a few show.

 

You miss the point - the ID card will aid in the creation of a more restrictive system of control. Sure, it isn't a given that oppressive regimes have ID cards, but providing one to a country which is already removing people's human rights is just providing one more way to remove privacy and freedoms.

 

The key thing with these new ideas is there is no evidence to show that their introduction will actually reduce crime. To blindly accept the argument that they will reduce crime and prevent terrorism is just plain stupid. We need evidence *before* the systems are introduced, rather than simply accepting rhetoric and hype.

[jcollings]

You miss the point - the ID card will aid in the creation of a more restrictive system of control. Sure, it isn't a given that oppressive regimes have ID cards, but providing one to a country which is already removing people's human rights is just providing one more way to remove privacy and freedoms.

 

The key thing with these new ideas is there is no evidence to show that their introduction will actually reduce crime. To blindly accept the argument that they will reduce crime and prevent terrorism is just plain stupid. We need evidence *before* the systems are introduced, rather than simply accepting rhetoric and hype.

 

I think you miss the point - it will make no difference to restrictions. If a government wants to oppress/remove human rights (and I'm not sure I see where this is already happening) it will do it full stop - it has happened so many times card or no card.

 

My privacy or freedom is no different than it was 20 years ago.

[localzuk]

I think you miss the point - it will make no difference to restrictions. If a government wants to oppress/remove human rights (and I'm not sure I see where this is already happening) it will do it full stop - it has happened so many times card or no card.

 

My privacy or freedom is no different than it was 20 years ago.

 

The thing is, most, if not all, oppressive regimes in the past have came into force in quite a short time period, over a year or 2. What we have at the moment is a slowly but surely increasing amount of control over the population. Allowing this government to introduce systems that can be used to control the population may not mean we enter an 'oppressive regime' now but aids the introduction of such a regime in the future.

 

And yes, you have a lot less privacy than 20 years ago. Your face is recorded all day long by cameras, your purchased in supermarkets are tracked, most things are tracked about you in fact.

 

Also, your freedoms in general are a lot more restricted now. You can no longer have a march through a city without permission. You can't protest outside parliament without permission. You can't contact different people in a business to express your displeasure at their practices. Protests can be controlled to such a level that they are pointless (ie. the police can give time limits, number limits, restrict the use of loud-halers etc...) There are many more examples.

 

The thing is, you don't seem to actually have any experience of these losses so you don't think they are actual losses. They are major threats against our freedoms, and unless it directly affects you, you don't seem to notice.

[jcollings]

The thing is, most, if not all, oppressive regimes in the past have came into force in quite a short time period, over a year or 2. What we have at the moment is a slowly but surely increasing amount of control over the population. Allowing this government to introduce systems that can be used to control the population may not mean we enter an 'oppressive regime' now but aids the introduction of such a regime in the future.

 

And yes, you have a lot less privacy than 20 years ago. Your face is recorded all day long by cameras, your purchased in supermarkets are tracked, most things are tracked about you in fact.

 

Also, your freedoms in general are a lot more restricted now. You can no longer have a march through a city without permission. You can't protest outside parliament without permission. You can't contact different people in a business to express your displeasure at their practices. Protests can be controlled to such a level that they are pointless (ie. the police can give time limits, number limits, restrict the use of loud-halers etc...) There are many more examples.

 

The thing is, you don't seem to actually have any experience of these losses so you don't think they are actual losses. They are major threats against our freedoms, and unless it directly affects you, you don't seem to notice.

 

Erm - you don't actually know me so don't assume what I have and haven't experienced.

 

So your face is recorded - big deal - I don't do anything wrong so it doesn't matter. Ditto supermarket.

 

This "civil liberties are infringed" is so much Sun and Daily Mail reader.

 

Bottom line - if you want to protest and enough people agree you can do it - we are policed by consent.

 

To be honest I'd quite like to infringe the rights of some people eg. the BNP - the rise of nutters like that is more frightening than anything this government has introduced.

[localzuk]

Erm - you don't actually know me so don't assume what I have and haven't experienced.

 

Well, from your views and your attitude, I can make a damn good guess about you. Tell me I'm wrong.

 

So your face is recorded - big deal - I don't do anything wrong so it doesn't matter. Ditto supermarket.

 

What? That makes no sense. Why does it matter if you don't do anything wrong. You don't have to do anything wrong to be targetted!

 

This "civil liberties are infringed" is so much Sun and Daily Mail reader.

 

Nope, I don't read crap like that. My views are based on hours of research, speaking to people who have had their freedoms restricted at the whim of the police abusing the powers they have been given and from my own experiences. I don't just read a paper and believe everything it says.

 

Bottom line - if you want to protest and enough people agree you can do it - we are policed by consent.

 

Sorry, but that has got to be the most ignorant statement I have read, ever. Women's rights started out as a fringe protest. Black rights the same. So you are saying that protests are ok to be restricted if they don't have a certain number of supporters? Who are you to say whether or not their complaint is valid?

 

To be honest I'd quite like to infringe the rights of some people eg. the BNP - the rise of nutters like that is more frightening than anything this government has introduced.

 

I don't like the BNP either, but they have a right to say what they want. Anyone who buys into it is an idiot in my view, but they are entitled to their views - so long as they don't infringe on my freedoms.