CMIS to SIMS Migration

[matt40k]

...but it's SaaS?

[Bromcom_Marketing]

Interesting observation - so if we were already in the cloud and completely re-wrote the thing would that require a re-procurement?

 

A very good question - a very simple answer:

 

A licence relates to a specific version of the software irrespective of deployment environment. A software release containing more than break fix/bug fix (non de-minimis) is a new version and requires a procurement. A re-write certainly does!

 

Why cloud is irrelevant?

Let's say a user has a licence for MS Office 2013. Then has it hosted on MS Azure (IaaS). The licence the user has for MS Office 2013 and which is now on MS Azure, has nothing to do with MS' cloud offering Office365 licence or service. Yes, a local authority, MAT or academy or school wanting Office 365 needs to go through a new procurement irrespective of licences for Office 2013.

 

DfE/Becta Report 2010 has specific reference to future cloud version and also de-minim rules. 7 years on procurement law has not changed and every bit of it applies -

 

Page 4 paragraph 1.18:

"However, the only supplier exemption would not include anything that could be acquired from othersoftware vendors such as new software modules or additional functionality. It also wouldn’t permitincremental changes to a product which were shown over time to have resulted in the supplierdeveloping new areas of functionality or indeed a completely new product. Generational changesin the nature of the products, for example, the upgrade from a DOS-based product to a Windows basedproduct, or from a local area network (LAN) based product to a “cloud” based product, wouldif challenged be likely to be regarded as sufficiently material to require the change to becompetitively procured by the contracting authority (Paragraphs 6.8 to 6.12)"

 

http://media.education.gov.uk/assets/files/pdf/school%20management%20information%20systems%20and%20value%20for%20money%202010.pdf

Edited May 26, 2017 by Bromcom_Marketing
Typo

[Banjo]

@PhilNeal> that’s good to know. Schools didn't pay extra in licencing to move to the .Net platform and away from 'STAR' many years ago. I can see the logic and precedent for not re licencing SIMS version 7 when upgrading incrementally to version 8. Smart move that will be welcomed by all, with the exception of the other ‘players’ in the market. Edited May 31, 2017 by Banjo

[matt40k]

Seriously @Banjo? Seriously?

 

SIMS8 is SaaS, as in Software as a Service. As in no license to buy, you PAYG. Why do you need to buy a license AND PAYG for the "license"? The only people this makes sense for is Capita as they're getting paid (at least) twice for the same thing. Did you have to buy a hefty Office 365 license AND then pay the subscription? No. Cause no one in their right mind would pay twice!

 

Regarding re-procuring your missing the point. If you've got something and your happy with it, you can go, "Hey, I'm happy, I don't have time to spend trying to find something better." and you just carry on as normal and just renew. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If something like SIMS7 > 8 the whole thing is different, you can say, hey, I'm happy with SIMS8 because you don't have SIMS8, you have SIMS7. It's like comparing Bromcom to the old SIMS version. You can't do it. Not at least looking at the others is like buying a new car without looking around. Is £50k for a new car a good deal? No? Well how do you know if you haven't looked.

 

The thing that REALLY annoys me isn't the whole throwing money at Capita, its the whole lazy spending of public money then whining that they've got no money.

[Michael]

As I've mentioned before, the stumbling block will be that the interface is totally different in SIMS 8 (quite rightly as it should be), so the license from 7 > 8 really isn't the issue, but because end users will realise it basically is a new product/new design, this should prompt all schools (whatever shape or size), to shop around and look at other solutions.

 

Some establishments will think it's the best deal and others will not, but then that's the whole point of procuring given it's such an integral part of a school.

 

The only real difference this time around, is by the time SIMS 8 is properly out, a lot of schools will have already changed... (I've seen this happen a lot more recently), but also they'll be more clusters or groups of schools rather than just one.

 

This is why I think Capita should release a Secondary/Primary version at the same time, otherwise a typical MAT for example wouldn't even consider it. You're going to want to procure for the whole MAT and not just some of it.

 

This has been my main criticism/observation looking at other cloud MIS systems in the past - being Primary only, it really makes no business sense at all. Even your typical legacy MIS system does both Primary/Secondary. Very much a backwards step.

[Banjo]

Seriously @Banjo? Seriously?

 

SIMS8 is SaaS, as in Software as a Service. As in no license to buy, you PAYG. Why do you need to buy a license AND PAYG for the "license"? The only people this makes sense for is Capita as they're getting paid (at least) twice for the same thing. Did you have to buy a hefty Office 365 license AND then pay the subscription? No. Cause no one in their right mind would pay twice!

 

Regarding re-procuring your missing the point. If you've got something and your happy with it, you can go, "Hey, I'm happy, I don't have time to spend trying to find something better." and you just carry on as normal and just renew. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If something like SIMS7 > 8 the whole thing is different, you can say, hey, I'm happy with SIMS8 because you don't have SIMS8, you have SIMS7. It's like comparing Bromcom to the old SIMS version. You can't do it. Not at least looking at the others is like buying a new car without looking around. Is £50k for a new car a good deal? No? Well how do you know if you haven't looked.

 

The thing that REALLY annoys me isn't the whole throwing money at Capita, its the whole lazy spending of public money then whining that they've got no money.

 

That's the current Capita model. Hefty fee upfront for licencing and then pay your annual maintenance fee. I'm going to assume that this will still be the same for SIMS 8 for schools moving back to SIMS from another platform - maybe Phil can confirm if their are 'one off' fee's for schools without a current SIMS 7 licence?

[Damon]

Regarding the procurement rules, I believe the issue arises because most LA's are paying for the licence en masse to obtain a discount. There's no information as to how the new licensing will be handled so if Schools were to go direct to CAPITA as opposed to via the LA/support team, then I assume they could carry out a basic procurement routine as with any mid value contract. Until we know the full details as to how the software is paid for and licensed, we're simply speculating.

[matt40k]

then I assume they could carry out a basic procurement routine as with any mid value contract.

 

Hope so, BETT is an ideal way IMO, you can see a demo and least get a feel for what each system can do and an idea of costs.

@Banjo - I doubt you'll get a response. If you were about to buy a SIMS license for £20k, how would you feel if they are dropping it in 7 months?

[Michael]

If you turn into an Academy, you have to buy your SIMS license direct from Capita. I suspect given modern trends, a lot of schools are going down the Academy route for numerous reasons, so I suspect all SIMS 8 licenses will be with Capita direct and support from Capita, the LA or a third party.

 

It probably isn't viable for LAs to buy SIMS licenses as they did in the past even if it were possible. One of the benefits of an Academy is being able to procure and use systems/solutions of their choosing rather than what the LA recommend or suggest. This is how it should have always been. You can apply this rule to anything if you think about it.

[matt40k]

@Michael I think your knowledge of LA procurement is pretty dated. LA will do nothing more herd the schools into a room whilst they (the school) make the decision (other then providing legal services and subsidizing the schools for the cost involved in making the decision)

[Michael]

I beg to differ I'm afraid. Especially the case in Birmingham, it all appears to be 'pro SIMS' and nothing more.

[matt40k]

That's like someone who judge all "other" MIS providers based on his experience with 1 "other" MIS provider.

 

Be interested to see the figures of how many Birmingham schools rebel and pick non-LA options

[Michael]

It's not a matter of rebeling, it's all about a proper procurement.

[Banjo]

Hope so, BETT is an ideal way IMO, you can see a demo and least get a feel for what each system can do and an idea of costs.

@Banjo - I doubt you'll get a response. If you were about to buy a SIMS license for £20k, how would you feel if they are dropping it in 7 months?

 

That's why I'm expecting that the current SIMS licencing that LA's/schools/academies hold will carry over to the new version. That's sort of what Phil hinted at if you read between the lines of the previous posts. How much annual maintenance you have to pay and will there be a differential between versions will be an interesting question. Let's hope it's a flat price across both versions.

[matt40k]

It's not a matter of rebeling, it's all about a proper procurement.

Sorry, I don't understand, are you suggesting Birmingham City Council (or any other LA for that matter) are breaking the law by miss managing public funds by not following the correct procurement legislation?!?

[Banjo]

Bham are in transition now. The LA have just dumped Capita as their IT and back-office service provider and schools in the LA don't have that solid relationship required with the LA to be 'directed' to buy any IT/MIS system they would reccomend. (words of the LA not mine)

[Michael]

Sorry, I don't understand, are you suggesting Birmingham City Council (or any other LA for that matter) are breaking the law by miss managing public funds by not following the correct procurement legislation?!?

 

Read into it as you interpret it, I can't comment any more for legal reasons. It's well know all LAs have been under scrutiny for sometime for a variety of reasons.

[matt40k]

It's well know all LAs have been under scrutiny for sometime for a variety of reasons.

??? Still don't understand. Every penny central\government is published regularly and information can be requested on demand. It's permanently under scrutiny, as it should be, as it public money! It's been like this for years and years and years.

[Banjo]

It's well know all LAs have been under scrutiny for sometime for a variety of reasons.

 

The last time we heard anything substantial was when Becta were around. The world has changed since then, we have MAT's, academy chains and CEO's being paid £400,000 per year. The spotlight has firmly moved away from LA's to these 'newcomers' and how they operate financially. LA's are 'Legacy' with a fast approaching end of support date :-)

Edited June 1, 2017 by Banjo

[Ditto]

I hope this is not off thread, but please move if it is. In terms of procurement, can someone tell me where I can find the rules for Academies/MATs/Trusts on procurement. For example what threshold has to be exceeded before formal procurement needs to take place, how many quotes are needed, what decision basis can be used for selection, what are the risks are if not sticking to the rules. I'm aware for large contracts (multi-million) there are EU regs, but in the main I'm presuming this would not apply to any but the largest trusts.

[Bromcom_Marketing]

I hope this is not off thread, but please move if it is. In terms of procurement, can someone tell me where I can find the rules for Academies/MATs/Trusts on procurement. For example what threshold has to be exceeded before formal procurement needs to take place, how many quotes are needed, what decision basis can be used for selection, what are the risks are if not sticking to the rules. I'm aware for large contracts (multi-million) there are EU regs, but in the main I'm presuming this would not apply to any but the largest trusts.

 

This report by DfE/Becta may help. It is a guide on compliance to procurment law and specifically for School MIS:

 

http://media.education.gov.uk/assets...ney%202010.pdf

[Ditto]

Thanks, but the link has not worked - I think the ellipses are in the URL too. I tried to google for it but no success yet, but did find some NAHT guidance.

[Bromcom_Marketing]

Thanks, but the link has not worked - I think the ellipses are in the URL too. I tried to google for it but no success yet, but did find some NAHT guidance.

 

 

Don't what happened to that link.

 

Please try: http://dera.ioe.ac.uk/15716/1/school%20management%20information%20systems%20and%20value%20for%20money%202010.pdf