[sims] Using numbers for attendance marks

[glen_j]

I've been asked to look into using numbers that correspond to behaviour in registers for Sims, does anyone use this at their school that would like to share how it is done? Is it as simple as adding the relevant attendance marks to the maintain codes section?

[Esteban_Child_of_the_Sun]

If it's for behavior, why not use the right click behavior events from the registers instead?

[Sylv3r]

I've heard of a couple of schools doing this, as you mention it's a case of changing the attendance code mapping so 1 = /, 2 = /, 3 =4 etc.

 

I'm not sure how easy it is to pull a report from SIMS to give you the average score overall - i Imagine the data will need to be pulled out and put through excel.

[Edu-IT]

I'd be hesitant about using attendance for behaviour, surely it just complicates things? There's already behaviour management within SIMS which would be better suited to this?

[GREED]

I've worked with a number of schools that do this, called behaviour for learning. Relatively simple, easy to set up.

[glen_j]

Thanks everyone, not my decision i was asked to look into it. I've added the relevant attendance codes, @Esteban_Child_of_the_Sun @GREED cheeky request but do you have a report to pull the information out of sims that i could have?

[GREED]

I would love too, unfortunately I'm a commercial vendor and don't use SIMS itself day in day out... I just know the data and what schools have done with it.

[PhilNeal]

I would strongly advise against using this approach as it combines two completely separate attributes into a single column; this makes analysis harder. It also means that the temptation for teachers will be to complete the register at the end of the session and a key reason for using Lesson Monitor is to find missing pupils immediately.

 

It is so easy to right click and make behaviour entries.

 

In 8 I don't think we'll be supporting this dual field usage and all such marks will be moved into 8 as standard attendance ones.

[GREED]

In 8 I don't think we'll be supporting this dual field usage and all such marks will be moved into 8 as standard attendance ones.

 

Really?

[kevsimo1961]

Hi there, I've just stumbled across this thread as I am researching this very idea. I am really alarmed that Phil has suggested that this facility might be removed in future SIMs versions. I am working closely with a couple of local secondary schools who have already produced a huge amount of work around this idea and have been using numbers for lesson marks for over two years

 

It is so much more than a simple "behaviour code" schools are developing "attitude to learning" grades based on number descriptors then linking this in to whole school initiatives such as rewards and interventions. My own school is currently trialling this system and looking to roll it out whole school in September.

 

The whole school systems are too detailed to go into in this thread. But trust me using numbers mapped to lesson marks (as a present code) is exceptionally useful and powerful. It really does not affect how staff use lesson monitor- quite the opposite.

 

Essentially this is a plea to Phil and Capita - please do not remove this functionality - it will devastate vast amounts of work that some schools have done and break some fantastic pastoral systems. Please could we have some consultation or reassurance on this ? Happy to discuss further please PM or email me - but please don't remove this option !!

[matt40k]

Rather then abusing the attendance mark, wouldn't it be better to keep them separate but linked. So that the behavior mark updated the attendance mark to present if its empty and if the attendance mark is absent the behavior is set as not present. Otherwise its like having free text in the fax field.

[kevsimo1961]

It really doesn't affect attendance marks in any way. The nos 1-4 are mapped to "present" for lesson marks (periods 1-5) the statutory am/pm marks appear exactly as usual. All other codes including absent, B, D etc are used in the usual way so instead of seeing a set of marks for a 5 period day as / //// / / you see / 2223 / 2 or / 2211 / 1 for example. Where the ticks are the stat am/pm marks and the numbers equate to our A2L grades.

 

In our trial, all teachers are asked to take the register at the start of their lesson in the usual way - except using 2 as the default present mark, and all other codes remain the same - this is linked to our "approach to learning" criteria/values, before the end of the lesson some students are amended to 1s (or 3s and 4s) again according to our A2L values that have been developed over time and are published and promoted to staff students and parents.

 

It really doesn't affect anything - least of all statutory attendance marks and the data that you can extract and work with is really good - once the system is embedded consistently. As I said in my previous post I work alongside a local (outstanding) school who have been using and developing this for around three years - it really has great potential and is not necessarily related to behaviour/achievement manager.

[matt40k]

But its not linked to behavior! And your manually having to fork it in (The joys of hacking something. You are basically abusing the attendance function (irony because its better then the behavior input function)

[GREED]

But its not linked to behavior! And your manually having to fork it in (The joys of hacking something. You are basically abusing the attendance function (irony because its better then the behavior input function)

But it is very quick, even to add a quick behavior is several clicks per child. This can be done as quick as a register at the same time as a register.

[PhilNeal]

Behaviour is multi-select and then enter the detail - very very quick.

[kevsimo1961]

Adding a "behaviour incident" from a register using the right click facility is reasonablly quick and easy for say an odd serious incident that happens within the lesson, and I understand that you can bulk select - but to take a register in the usual way and then bulk select 3/4 different groups of students in this way to award 1s 2s 3s etc in the behaviour aspect is more work and simply wont get done. I'm not sure it is even a hack, its only using a different symbol, which everyone knows to mean present (and SIMs records it as present) which schools can use and interpret in any way they chose, and in many cases it is not "behaviour" schools are using the codes to embrace attitudes in lessons like resilience, rigour, pride, independance, and have put a lot of work in to developing what a 1 student learner means etc etc

 

Sounds like Graham is on my wavelength regarding this useful functionality (or Hack!)

 

Cheers

[GREED]

I'm just not sure what the problem is, if schools have learned to use the system to x, who are we to tell them it is wrong?

[PhilNeal]

When you see the new design in 8 it will become obvious.

[GREED]

Can I assume there will be a quick visual way to achieve the same result, just not using attendance codes? Like a notes field? I guess something like that would also be useful for other things like 'forgotten homework' and the likes, another frequent use for this.

[PhilNeal]

It's certainly visual!

[GREED]

It's certainly visual!

 

Just throw a screenshot up and put this to bed Phil

[kevsimo1961]

Right click - "red flag comments box" is useful for notes such as "no hwk" or setting reminders "cswk due in today" etc.

 

I can't envisage a system that records two things in one go in such a simple way -but perhaps I will just have to be patient. Thanks for the feedback.

[PhilNeal]

Sorry @GREED - no can do!!

[vikpaw]

Sounds like Graham is on my wavelength regarding this useful functionality (or Hack!)

 

It is a hack, you're creating extended functionality by overriding the original feature. I appreciate it is very useful and you've spent time on it, but you cannot expect a company to support your non-standard use of the system when they redesign and improve the module to better serve it's primary purpose.

 

Interested to know how you analyse your data as I'm sure @glen_j will be too.

 

I like the idea behind what you've done, we did similar at a previous school, for marking sixth formers who were late or allowed to go early. Some use it to show kids who don't bring their PE kit. It's simple and easy to double record.

 

Perhaps what we need to focus on is why the system isn't capable of recording this sort of additional data in an equally easy way. Perhaps the behaviour module should allow this. Perhaps after taking a register the system should automatically move to a user selected screen either behaviour / assessment .... Maybe even the lesson planning module. I'm talking more generally about any system here.

 

If you're pioneering a great use for data, it should be in a module designed for it, so you're not just limited to 1-9 or a-z (what's left of the letters anyway), but something where it can be taken further, where the data is grouped, and can be automatically used in better ways.

 

We use Engage at our schools and it has a daybook feature to record any type of data based on custom templates. We had one for uniform infringement, one for chewing gum (overkill in my opinion) but very easy to use, select all students and give them a category. It was also used for the full behaviour / achievement recording. They can have triggers and auto alerts built in as well. Attendance is automatically piped into this area so when reviewing the daybook it has all this data as well as medical, and just lates, amongst other things.

 

It's not quite as straight forward as taking a register but has more applications, the markbook is more like a register and I would argue a better place to put the sort of data you are recording.

 

To come back to SIMS, there is a way to quickly link to marksheets from the register, I forget now exactly, but you can assign up to 5 per class or teacher, this sounds like a useful extension - puts the data into the appropriate area and retains the speed of use. It's been discussed previously as a way to record pastoral data, and can also be used to see historic data which is possible in attendance too, but this is different. Pulling marksheet data into reporting and manipulating it is also easier and more efficient because that is what it's designed to do.

 

I'm not knocking your process @kevsimo1961 - just trying to think a bit broader and understand how the MIS can be best used to cater for what you're doing which sounds like a really good idea.

 

One thing i don't like about editing the attendance is that it affects the audit logs (not in SIMS! - but systems that have one). Even though class (lesson) attendance is usually deemed less important than session, some schools struggle to even get session attendance done on time. Ideally, attendance recording is done once and not edited unless necessary. We (as data managers / pastoral leaders) want to monitor attendance to lessons, lates, absence etc. Double usage of the field affects that as does editing it. If I want to share info, publish it, send to another system then I kinda want it to be consistent and uniform.

 

I think we should be petitioning @PhilNeal to give us better functions in a different module that's just as intuitive to use. Not just Capita either, all MIS vendors should be taking notes.

 

Just my six pence worth...

[PhilNeal]

@vikpaw All attendance changes are audited in SIMS