Replace/Upgrade current wireless

[geaves]

Without going into too much history and boring long thread, I look after a small (240 pupils + staff) primary school, I sort of stumbled into this as my wife was a teacher there.

 

The school currently has a Ruckus ZD 1000 with 6x7942 and 2x7363 AP's, this was installed some 6-8 years ago and has been flawless......until the subject of upgrading the schools network (wired and wireless). So I gave them a report on how this should be approached, at the time the school were an owner driver network company.....the guy was good can't complain....however instead of doing what I suggested they upgraded the wired to 1Gb. It wasn't long before I was getting calls re the wireless.....surprise, surprise the wireless runs at 10/100, I've added a third switch which has improved things but it's not the solution!!

The downside to this the owner driver has gone back to teaching IT, so I'm left with trying to source a replacement wireless system, I've read the threads on here regarding Ubiquiti and it seems the most logical step, below is how the school is currently set up:

 

Main Cabinet:

 

2 x TP-Link TL-SG1024 (there are also 2 x TL-SF1080P POE units)

 

PE Cupboard in Hall:

 

This will need a complete upgrade!!

 

1 x Networx 100Mb TXtoFX Convertor (fibre connection from main cabinet)

1 x Networx Mini Switch 800 (10/100)

1 x TL-SF1080P

 

What I am thinking of is the following;

 

8 x Unifi AP,AC pro

1 x US-16-150w (Unifi 16 port switch) Main Cabinet

1 x US-8-150w (Unifi 8 port switch) PE Cupboard in Hall

 

the 2 switches would negate poe switches (if my research is correct), however the stumbling block is the TXtoFX Convertor this would also need replacing.....researching I understand what it does but that's it.

 

I've had 2 quotes one for Ubiquiti and one for Ruckus Unleashed, but the Ruckus quote does include a 10/100/1000 switch for the second cabinet nor POE's for both cabinet's.

 

Perhaps I should have included what the school has hard wise.....if everything was on including laptops and iPads about 110 units, all the laptops have wireless n cards. Setting this up would be another major learning curve so I don't want to screw it up by getting the school to buy something that may meet their needs.

 

Oh! and the school is bomb proof, it's 19th century which was built to last and has been added too as it's grown.

 

Many thanks.

[dry]

I'd look at ditching the media converter if you can- depending on the spec of the fibre, it's bottlenecking throughput to the PE cab to 100mb/s. If you've got more than a few clients on that PE switch (either PCs via Ethernet or laptops via an AP) you'll start to feel the pinch of the bottleneck. I've not had loads of experience of fibre, but as far as I know you can buy SFP adapters to put in those UniFi switches you've specced, which should theoretically remove the 10/100 bottleneck and allow the connection between the core and PE cab to run at 1Gb/s (or 10Gb/s depending on the fibre, switch and SFP adapter).

 

I'd double-check to ensure you're not exceeding the 150w PoE capacity of those switches before ordering- I'm not sure of the draw of the UAP-AC-Pros, but it's worth checking to see if the 250w model is required.

 

Compare your quotes to MS Dist - they are a UK-based distributor of Ubiquiti kit with pricing on their website. In my experience it's not worth paying a significant amount for labour for installing UniFi kit- it's pretty much plug n play!

[Achandler]

Get the more powerful PoE switches to ensure you have two things, enough power now but also power to avialble in the future.

 

You can then most likely but a couple of SFP modules, and probably some ST to LC fibre patch cables and go straight into the switches directly.

 

Technically there are 1GB converters out there but its still a media converter and I would still avoid it where possible.

[Chris_]

No need to go for more expensive POE switches, the 150w models should be perfectly capable. The UniFi AC Pro access points use a maximum of 9w under full load.

 

I'd look at getting a UniFi Cloud Key (small embedded £75 device that runs the UniFi controller) also, unless you've got a PC/server/VM to run the controller on already.

[geaves]

Get the more powerful PoE switches to ensure you have two things, enough power now but also power to avialble in the future.

 

You can then most likely but a couple of SFP modules, and probably some ST to LC fibre patch cables and go straight into the switches directly.

 

Technically there are 1GB converters out there but its still a media converter and I would still avoid it where possible.

 

From memory the TX FX Convertor has 2 of these plugged into it with Ethernet patch leads coming from the other end connecting to the switch, would these just plug into the SFP sockets on the Unifi switch......the PE Cab is only big enough for the 8 port switch and would only ever run 2 AP's. Again from memory the other end of that Fibre goes into the patch panel in the main Cab.

[geaves]

No need to go for more expensive POE switches, the 150w models should be perfectly capable. The UniFi AC Pro access points use a maximum of 9w under full load.

 

I'd look at getting a UniFi Cloud Key (small embedded £75 device that runs the UniFi controller) also, unless you've got a PC/server/VM to run the controller on already.

 

Further research would suggest that that switch would be sufficient....I have 2 options with the controller software either install it on one of the VM's and or RDServer installing it on that would I could access it anywhere from any PC.

[geaves]

I'd look at ditching the media converter if you can- depending on the spec of the fibre, it's bottlenecking throughput to the PE cab to 100mb/s. If you've got more than a few clients on that PE switch (either PCs via Ethernet or laptops via an AP) you'll start to feel the pinch of the bottleneck. I've not had loads of experience of fibre, but as far as I know you can buy SFP adapters to put in those UniFi switches you've specced, which should theoretically remove the 10/100 bottleneck and allow the connection between the core and PE cab to run at 1Gb/s (or 10Gb/s depending on the fibre, switch and SFP adapter).

 

I'd double-check to ensure you're not exceeding the 150w PoE capacity of those switches before ordering- I'm not sure of the draw of the UAP-AC-Pros, but it's worth checking to see if the 250w model is required.

 

Compare your quotes to MS Dist - they are a UK-based distributor of Ubiquiti kit with pricing on their website. In my experience it's not worth paying a significant amount for labour for installing UniFi kit- it's pretty much plug n play!

 

I've looked at MS Dist as well a 4Gon, the later will allow the school pro forma for payment.....but my biggest headache is this convertor, something I've never dealt with before.

[Chris_]

From memory the TX FX Convertor has 2 of these [ATTACH=CONFIG]42674[/ATTACH] plugged into it with Ethernet patch leads coming from the other end connecting to the switch, would these just plug into the SFP sockets on the Unifi switch......the PE Cab is only big enough for the 8 port switch and would only ever run 2 AP's. Again from memory the other end of that Fibre goes into the patch panel in the main Cab.

 

You'll need a pair of SFP modules, one for each end of the fibre link, they plug in to the ports on the UniFi swith, then you can plug the fibre patch lead in to them. https://www.msdist.co.uk/product_MikroTik-S-85DLC05D-550m-Multi-Mode-SFP-Module.php

 

Drop MS Dist an email asking for a quote, you should get better pricing that what's listed online They'll also happily set you up a pro forma trade account.

[AlanD]

I would check that you have access points in the ceiling of every classroom. Sharing access points (often from the corridor) was fine with 2.4G but doesn't work well with 5G radios. Its quite a number of iPads....

I would consider the later "HD" access points from Ubiquiti. More expensive...and currently difficult to source in UK.

Even if the fibre is not the latest grade - I am guessing it will work fine at 1Gb/s. If there are 4 fibres (or more) it would be useful to aggregate 2 pairs into the switch at each end. (Switches need to be configured to do this) Most switches will take SFP adaptors (make sure it does) so you won't then require media convertors.

Of course if your external internet is only 100Mb/s (or less) there was not much wrong with the 100/10 switches...as I assume most of the ipad traffic will be internet use! Improving switches (and access point) may not help!

If its a leased line - investigate whether Virgin' Cable 200 300 Mb/s link (if in cabled area) might not give you higher speed and the savings pay for the investment. Even 2 x FTTC lines into a load balancing router might be better value than a leased line.

 

As an alternative wild card....consider a Draytek router and DrayTek access points (I think it supports up to 20 APs). A filtering licence for Draytek is £40 a year..but you would still need some kind of monitoring on the ipads to meet the prevent strategy.

 

And...its worth considering expectations here. Ipad2 only support 1 wireless stream - at - nominally 150Mb/s. With a 2.4G radio its likely to be half this at best assuming 20Mhz channels. And Real data rates half of that again (...half duplex..contended medium etc).

Moving to dual band access points at 40MHz channels will improve this...but you still have perhaps 30 ipads in one room connecting to an AP sharing 100Mb internet. That's - OK - just - for browsing...maybe be not so good for youTube ...and what are the other 70 ipads doing?

 

I think later ipads support 2 streams - like ipad air.....and "ac"? But if you don't have these - you may not see the transformation that might be expected.

Edited April 12, 2017 by AlanD

[geaves]

I take it that this https://www.msdist.co.uk/product_Ubiquiti-UniFi-UAP-AC-Pro.php is the same as this Ubiquiti UniFi AC Access Points - 4Gon Solutions

[geaves]

You'll need a pair of SFP modules, one for each end of the fibre link, they plug in to the ports on the UniFi swith, then you can plug the fibre patch lead in to them. https://www.msdist.co.uk/product_MikroTik-S-85DLC05D-550m-Multi-Mode-SFP-Module.php

 

Drop MS Dist an email asking for a quote, you should get better pricing that what's listed online They'll also happily set you up a pro forma trade account.

 

Ok I'm sorry now I am confused, why can't they just plug into the SFP sockets on the Unifi switch this one Ubiquiti UniFi Switch 8 150W - US-8-150W

[geaves]

I would check that you have access points in the ceiling of every classroom. Sharing access points (often from the corridor) was fine with 2.4G but doesn't work well with 5G radios. Its quite a number of iPads....

I would consider the later "HD" access points from Ubiquiti. More expensive...and currently difficult to source in UK.

Even if the fibre is not the latest grade - I am guessing it will work fine at 1Gb/s. If there are 4 fibres (or more) it would be useful to aggregate 2 pairs into the switch at each end. (Switches need to be configured to do this) Most switches will take SFP adaptors (make sure it does) so you won't then require media convertors.

Of course if your external internet is only 100Mb/s (or less) there was not much wrong with the 100/10 switches...as I assume most of the ipad traffic will be internet use! Improving switches (and access point) may not help!

If its a leased line - investigate whether Virgin' Cable 200 300 Mb/s link (if in cabled area) might not give you higher speed and the savings pay for the investment. Even 2 x FTTC lines into a load balancing router might be better value than a leased line.

 

As an alternative wild card....consider a Draytek router and DrayTek access points (I think it supports up to 20 APs). A filtering licence for Draytek is £40 a year..but you would still need some kind of monitoring on the ipads to meet the prevent strategy.

 

And...its worth considering expectations here. Ipad2 only support 1 wireless stream - at - nominally 150Mb/s. With a 2.4G radio its likely to be half this at best assuming 20Mhz channels. And Real data rates half of that again (...half duplex..contended medium etc).

Moving to dual band access points at 40MHz channels will improve this...but you still have perhaps 30 ipads in one room connecting to an AP sharing 100Mb internet. That's - OK - just - for browsing...maybe be not so good for youTube ...and what are the other 70 ipads doing?

 

I think later ipads support 2 streams - like ipad air.....and "ac"? But if you don't have these - you may not see the transformation that might be expected.

 

The AP's are currently wall mounted, where we have classrooms that form an L the class in the middle doesn't have one, and there is only 2 classes that share an AP, we only have 1 in a corridor and that's outside the office and staff room.

 

I should have clarified better....we have about 70/80 laptops 30/40 iPads....but not everything is in use at the same time.

[Chris_]

Ok I'm sorry now I am confused, why can't they just plug into the SFP sockets on the Unifi switch this one Ubiquiti UniFi Switch 8 150W - US-8-150W

 

Maybe a picture will help

[geaves]

Maybe a picture will help

[ATTACH=CONFIG]42675[/ATTACH]

 

:D:D

 

I've never dealt with these before.....but learning curve....

[Achandler]

If the switches have SFP modules in the front then you can plug in an SFP module, then plug in the connector you have and your setup and going.

[AlanD]

Well - I think ceiling mounts make more of a difference than a simple test might indicate. Ideally - with lots of access points and clusters of classrooms you need the power of the Access points to be really low....especially if you want to use the wide channels that new APs can provide. I found it help turning the transmit power down in the laptops themselves too - as that gave far less contention two classrooms away where the same channel was getting reused. We are a secondary school - and placing the (5GHz) client (with low power) at the back behind some burly lad with the access point on the wall at the front halved the data rate. I decided it was silly investing in better access points and clients and lose it all because I couldn't be bothered to reposition the APs. It might be different with little ones in a primary school because they are less likely to obscure the wireless paths. Like most things - just laying out the money and expecting or hoping its all going to work brilliantly like magic is not enough. Planning and testing (always high on my list) will possibly give more improvement than just buying better stuff.

[geaves]

If the switches have SFP modules in the front then you can plug in an SFP module, then plug in the connector you have and your setup and going.

 

Aaahhh!! That's clarified it....now it makes sense....he says...hopefully

[geaves]

Well - I think ceiling mounts make more of a difference than a simple test might indicate. Ideally - with lots of access points and clusters of classrooms you need the power of the Access points to be really low....especially if you want to use the wide channels that new APs can provide. I found it help turning the transmit power down in the laptops themselves too - as that gave far less contention two classrooms away where the same channel was getting reused. We are a secondary school - and placing the (5GHz) client (with low power) at the back behind some burly lad with the access point on the wall at the front halved the data rate. I decided it was silly investing in better access points and clients and lose it all because I couldn't be bothered to reposition the APs. It might be different with little ones in a primary school because they are less likely to obscure the wireless paths. Like most things - just laying out the money and expecting or hoping its all going to work brilliantly like magic is not enough. Planning and testing (always high on my list) will possibly give more improvement than just buying better stuff.

 

Thanks I don't think we have that problem....you'd have to 'stack' three pupils just to reach them probably 5 in foundation/reception.....I'm going to keep your info about the AP's and laptops and see if I that helps once a decision is made.

[Mark-wilde]

Ubiquiti networks offer a great service for wireless networks. Their switches and APs are quite reliable, but remember not to use the DACs in the switches (compatibility issue). You should stick to the SFP modules and patch cables, buy the customized SFP modules from fs.com is a wise choice.

[Al_NetSupport]

I have been a fan of Ruckus kit but it comes with a price tag. Recently deployed Ubiquiti "AC Lite" access points with a Cloud Key and been really impressed with the range and ease of management . Really costs effective solution too.