League Table of MIS systems

[PotNoodleTech]

What I am waiting for (and I may be waiting a long time) is for a real top end software company such as VMware or Veeam to enter the MIS market. My god - imagine an MIS version of Veeam, totally utterly modern, super reliable, ground-breaking features, regularly updated, well priced, fully auditable (that would comply with data protection act) with very reasonable yearly support costs.

 

*drool*

Edited March 10, 2017 by PotNoodleTech

[GREED]

Interested to know - what do you consider 'well priced' @AButters - and how long does that 'well priced' stay being well priced when it suddenly becomes a race to the bottom?

 

Assuming that 'well priced' is less than most out there right now, you are saying want everything better than everyone else, and cost less money, on a product that is not bringing in income already to pay for the development marketing sales and support of said product?

 

I suspect there is a reason the big players have not entered the market

[PotNoodleTech]

Interested to know - what do you consider 'well priced' @AButters - and how long does that 'well priced' stay being well priced when it suddenly becomes a race to the bottom?

 

Assuming that 'well priced' is less than most out there right now, you are saying want everything better than everyone else, and cost less money, on a product that is not bringing in income already to pay for the development marketing sales and support of said product?

 

I suspect there is a reason the big players have not entered the market

 

Hehe - the reason is that they have not identified the market yet

 

As you've alluded to - school MIS can be a total cash cow. I think big players could actually make a killing if they came in, provided better software, and undercut on costs. it wouldn't be difficult, when you consider what we pay outright plus yearly support costs in order to keep essentially underdeveloped 10+ year old software running on a daily basis.

 

For my backup system from big player, I pay under £500/year for a support contract for a system that backs up our entire estate via Disk 2 Disk 2 NAS 2 Offsite NAS, keeping the software up to date (one total new release per year) and for actual support if I require it (have not required it yet as the software is so intuitive and reliable). £500 a year for an absolutely essential "whole school" bit of software.

 

How much do we pay for MIS support per year?!!

[GREED]

Hehe - the reason is that they have not identified the market yet

 

As you've alluded to - school MIS can be a total cash cow. I think big players could actually make a killing if they came in, provided better software, and undercut on costs. it wouldn't be difficult, when you consider what we pay outright plus yearly support costs in order to keep essentially underdeveloped 10+ year old software running on a daily basis.

 

For my backup system from big player, I pay under £500/year for a support contract for a system that backs up our entire estate via Disk 2 Disk 2 NAS 2 Offsite NAS, keeping the software up to date (one total new release per year) and for actual support if I require it (have not required it yet as the software is so intuitive and reliable). £500 a year for an absolutely essential "whole school" bit of software.

 

How much do we pay for MIS support per year?!!

 

Interesting discussion. On that point, when your Microsoft licencing for server software, desktop software, office software, rolls into the many thousands of ££, given we would all agree that is essential, why does that not get the same flack on pricing?

[PotNoodleTech]

Interesting discussion. On that point, when your Microsoft licencing for server software, desktop software, office software, rolls into the many thousands of ££, given we would all agree that is essential, why does that not get the same flack on pricing?

 

Bad example to use!

 

My MS agreement comes to about £3.5k/year and that covers the school to run unlimited Virtual Servers, unlimited client PC O/S, unlimited quantity of Office on each desktop, Office 365, that includes a basic level of support and free complex online training resources in all disciplines. It is actually, outstanding value for money.

 

MIS on the other hand both to buy outright and to support yearly - costs how much? Not £3500 anyway....

[GREED]

Bad example to use!

 

My MS agreement comes to about £3.5k/year and that covers the school to run unlimited Virtual Servers, unlimited client PC O/S, unlimited quantity of Office on each desktop, Office 365, that includes a basic level of support and free complex online training resources in all disciplines. It is actually, outstanding value for money.

 

MIS on the other hand both to buy outright and to support yearly - costs how much? Not £3500 anyway....

 

Perhaps a bad example, and yet it is still 3.5k, 7 times your valuation of an MIS.

 

Consider that an MIS runs the whole exam system, a timetable system (which is silly complex btw!), assessment, forecasting, admissions for some, communications to 2000 parents, etc etc.

 

I think it is all about perception, some will use it all day every day and see the real value, and others will not and question the value. Some will question whether 3.5k for MS software is good value... How do you quantify value in that way?

 

I am not saying right or wrong, but I am saying the market for MIS and pricing is what it is, like any other market that has been priced organically from year dot - for those that live and breathe it I think prices are competitive and demonstrate value for the most part.

[bigdannyb79]

Education and the related initiatives change all the time so the mis needs to reflect that. It has an important part to play in a young person achieving their potential and as such has to try to support the thousands of processes that go on to support a learners journey. At the same time there are many logistical problems in schools that need to be supported by the MIS and it is often very difficult to create a one size fits all solution for those so we demand a never ending amount of customisation. I.e. building an MIS aint easy.

 

Its a massive market but a monopoly was created by historical LA involvement so its now makes it difficult to penetrate the market as many schools and staff have ingrained habits and processes. Schools and education are complex beasts and so often developers struggle to match the needs of their users while balancing the never ending maintenance of statutory obligations.

 

Just look at AL they threw approx 20m at Progresso and despite having knowledge of the market and an existing product that did so many things right, they themselves admit 6 years later they are still trying to achieve the clear vision for a innovative, market leading MIS they had many years before.

 

There isnt a super solution here but unfortunately the market position means significant investment is required to chip away at a userbase that is largely very resistant to change so while there is the market for many providers offering horses for courses in reality its a lot smaller than first appears.

[PotNoodleTech]

Perhaps a bad example, and yet it is still 3.5k, 7 times your valuation of an MIS.

 

Hang on I never actually valued MIS support at £500 a year, I just pointed that I am paying £500 year for A Grade support from a tier 1 software manufacturer for an excellent piece of software, a backup system that is about as important as things get in a school (if you disagree with the importance of this kind of software, see Kings College) and that that fact makes MIS support contracts seem to me to be poor value.

[GREED]

Hang on I never actually valued MIS support at £500 a year, I just pointed that I am paying £500 year for A Grade support from a tier 1 software manufacturer for an excellent piece of software, a backup system that is about as important as things get in a school (if you disagree with the importance of this kind of software, see Kings College) and that that fact makes MIS support contracts seem to me to be poor value.

 

OK sorry my bad I misread that.

 

Yes that does sound like a good deal for backup support, not questioning the importance of that at all.

 

Yet still, what value would you place on an MIS?

[minimoo]

Yet still, what value would you place on an MIS?

 

That's an interesting question

 

What makes it hard is you probably start to compare pricing to other things you pay - pretty sure we pay more to Capita each year then we do to Microsoft. So on one level you think that you pay to much... on the flip side... and as I hinted in my earlier post looking at the data - their MIS is probably the most flexible for secondary school's. So therefore I think the pricing is probably about right as it stands at the moment.

 

What I think may be wrong is the way that extra modules are charged for - in terms of web/mobile apps - as arguably that is now technology that people come to expect as part of a core product.

[minimoo]

Yet still, what value would you place on an MIS?

 

That's an interesting question

 

What makes it hard is you probably start to compare pricing to other things you pay - pretty sure we pay more to Capita each year then we do to Microsoft. So on one level you think that you pay to much... on the flip side... and as I hinted in my earlier post looking at the data - their MIS is probably the most flexible for secondary school's. So therefore I think the pricing is probably about right as it stands at the moment.

 

What I think may be wrong is the way that extra modules are charged for - in terms of web/mobile apps - as arguably that is now technology that people come to expect as part of a core product.

[matt40k]

I'd be interested in how much people value the "cloud" aspect. By "cloud" I mean someone else's hardware and really I mean SaaS, so fully managed - software updates, hardware, backups. Just wondering if the added value of a fully managed service has increased popularity since ransonware is on the rise. I've heard a few places being hit and finding out that even their oldest backup has been afflicted and rendered useless leaving them in a sticky situation.

[Ditto]

As a free school, into just our fifth year, the cloud was an initial trust goal and I'd say a non-negotiable, so for us of extreme value. We are 95% GSuite for education, so minimal Microsoft costs. Our MIS is therefore one of our biggest costs, but a cloud based product is a must. Currently we are on progresso, and yes when new staff join, we get some mutterings from new staff wanting to go back to what they know and have SIMS. To date quotations have removed SIMS from consideration. Could another big player join the market? Well, I agree the resistance to change is probably the biggest factor in established schools. Perhaps Google will one day give it a go - now that would be interesting to watch!

[GAdigital]

You could consider having classic SIMS 7 hosted in Azure\AWS with a html5 RDP client for power users + the Teacher App + Student/Parent App on Chrome\Andriod for other staff etc..

[GAdigital]

You could consider having classic SIMS 7 hosted in Azure\AWS with a html5 RDP client for power users + the Teacher App + Student/Parent App on Chrome\Andriod for other staff etc..

[matt40k]

You could consider having classic SIMS 7 hosted in Azure\AWS with a html5 RDP client for power users + the Teacher App + Student/Parent App on Chrome\Andriod for other staff etc..

 

Sounds like you'd need to fire a few staff to cover that cost!

[PotNoodleTech]

Sounds like you'd need to fire a few staff to cover that cost!

 

*leans back in leather chair and strokes white cat*

[Michael]

I'm not entirely sure what the obsession is with SIMS to be perfectly honest... and to have it hosted (which it wasn't originally designed to be hosted), round hole square peg comes to mind.

[matt40k]

Something that works doesn't come high on the To-Do list. You may know its slowly poisoning you, but the "risk" doesn't appear to out way the benefits. It's why we all still have petrol\diesel cars

[MrWrighty]

I have mixed feelings about Cloud services. MIS is a critical function in any school. Good connectivity is expensive and would require 100% availability. I understand that business models are changing and that the likes of Microsoft are pushing users to the Cloud. The biggest issue for me is reliability. I could pay a lot of money for a dedicated fibre link but still have to rely on antiquated infrastructure from BT to handle it. I couldn't hand on heart trust putting critical systems in the cloud unless I really have to. Cloud storage for backups, fine because interruption isn't an issue necessarily. The slightest hiccough now and its a big problem, move it to the cloud and the internet goes down, a bigger problem.

[matt40k]

Again. I've had more power outages then my broadband going down. Still your mileage may vary, but it's worth looking into, a better internet connection has far more benefits then just being able to outsource your MIS. There are lot of other companies out there that run their own fibre.

[PotNoodleTech]

Someone cut though our BT fibre link with a chainsaw. My server room stayed up during this unexpected outage. If it had been all in the cloud, the school would have struggled!

[matt40k]

Someone did the same thing around here but to the power stations, they'd been stealing the cooper. Well until they switched off the wrong one...

[MrWrighty]

Never say never where IT is concerned. When you have everything on site it is under you control, as soon as you start having to rely on a 3rd party service the risk increases, the more that goes to the cloud the greater the risk to business continuity. If someone does damage a cable providing your internet services, how long before service is restored.

[Michael]

Something that works doesn't come high on the To-Do list.

 

I agree - Windows 95 still works, but as we all know it's been superseded in pretty much all areas. SIMS is a bit like Windows 95