Tesla Model 3

[Theblacksheep]

I have bad enough range anxiety in ICE cars, if the petrol gauge gets less than half I start getting nervous

 

Just wondering what happens if you do run out of charge mid journey, not like you can get a can of electric to get you going - I'm guessing most breakdown vans have charging facilities ?

 

The point is you have a different mindset to fuel, with EVs you charge at night (or at work) and always leave with a 80-100% battery.

 

A SR+ has 240 mile range, an LR has 330 mile range. The latter is beyond my bladder range. A supercharger will charge both in 45 mins max (150kwh charging). Southampton to Glasgow is one charge stop. I think I stopped twice when I last drove in my ICE car.

 

We'll have 15 min full charging in the next few years (the tech is there now, it just needs deploying and supporting on vehicles)

Edited May 2, 2019 by Theblacksheep

[howartp]

I'm guessing NONE do at the moment. You'd get towed to the nearest charger would be my guess.

RAC are just launching EV boosters with their breakdown vans.

 

There is another breakdown company somewhere that has them, but I can't find which they are on Google.

 

Otherwise as @IrritableTech says, they have to be flat-bedded to the nearest charger.

 

Nissan offer this free of charge for 3 years plus renewed if you service with them; not sure what others do.

 

Three years of Nissan Leaf driving not had it happen yet. I won't be going back to an ICE. (But nor will I be buying Tesla!)

[Andrew_C]

Sadly not - electric motors turn into electric generators when they are turned by mechanical force

Ummm - so wouldn't a setting that allows battery to charge whilst being towed be a fix?

A SR+ has 240 mile range, an LR has 330 mile range. The latter is beyond my bladder range.

Even my near 60 year old bladder empties in substantially less than 45 mins! On the journey to my father's that adds nearly 20% to the travel time.

[casey]

A SR+ has 240 mile range, an LR has 330 mile range. The latter is beyond my bladder range. A supercharger will charge both in 45 mins max (150kwh charging). Southampton to Glasgow is one charge stop. I think I stopped twice when I last drove in my ICE car.

 

We'll have 15 min full charging in the next few years (the tech is there now, it just needs deploying and supporting on vehicles)

 

As you say the tech is here, I've seen video of a Model 3 on a Supercharger V3 (not a test system, a public charger) charging at a rate of 1000 miles in an hour. So 250 miles in 15 minutes, even a comfort stop and a takeaway coffee will take that long.

 

Unfortunately I'm never likely to be able to afford a Tesla but the rest of the automotive industry are s l o w l y catching up.

[casey]

Ummm - so wouldn't a setting that allows battery to charge whilst being towed be a fix? Even my near 60 year old bladder empties in substantially less than 45 mins! On the journey to my father's that adds nearly 20% to the travel time.

 

It's not recommended but there are videos of a Model S being towed and charging in that way. I expect someone is working on it somewhere.

 

There are various videos of Tesla owners waiting for their girlfriend/wife/dog being walked to get back to the car after it has finished being charged.

 

One in particular with a new Model 3 Performance says it's now always the car waiting for them, not them waiting for the car.

Edited May 2, 2019 by casey

[Theblacksheep]

Ummm - so wouldn't a setting that allows battery to charge whilst being towed be a fix? Even my near 60 year old bladder empties in substantially less than 45 mins! On the journey to my father's that adds nearly 20% to the travel time.

 

Grab a something, something to eat, wait for the GF.... I think I spent longer than 45 mins on our stops on long journeys last time!

 

 

 

 

If it was cheaper I'd buy the M3 in a heartbeat, the disappointing part is the price. £41k base price means it suffers from the 'luxury' tax (£1,600 over 5 years), but interestingly the price is comparable to Norway where it is £33k, unfortunately we have 10% EU import fee (lets not go there) and 20% VAT (discounted by the £3,500). £5k option for autopiliot was recently added as standard, but price increased £2k, pushing it up into the 'luxury' band by about £1,500.

 

I don't think any other company can get near their battery production level, they invested heavy and early to have close to $120 per KWH in battery production costs. Audi recently scaled back the Etron numbers (LG battery issues), Nissan bumped up the price by 6%, Jags are silly money. The waiting list for eniro and Kona is into 2020.

 

All eyes on VW next week when the ID Neo orders open up, but again 2020 (I really like the Skoda Vision IV)

Edited May 2, 2019 by Theblacksheep

[sted]

Well, you've got me on both counts. Wales is known as a bit of a charging black hole in the EV community, hopefully that will improve as time goes on.

 

And the 'not wanting to stop' thing is probably related to age. My in-laws used to take almost a whole day to travel to Plymouth from Southampton, which would have driven me crazy.

I've become less bothered about the time as I've become older, but I still wouldn't spend 6 hours on that particular journey!

 

fwiw im 41 and ive always been the same if anything i want to stop less the older i get. worst i did in 1 day was leeds to knockhill (scotland north of Edinburgh )and back (stopped for the touring cars but both ways were non stop although on the way back that was because i couldn't find a service station till it got to the point where i was so close to home i cba)

[casey]

Otherwise as @IrritableTech says, they have to be flat-bedded to the nearest charger.

 

Nissan offer this free of charge for 3 years plus renewed if you service with them; not sure what others do.

 

Three years of Nissan Leaf driving not had it happen yet. I won't be going back to an ICE. (But nor will I be buying Tesla!)

 

Renault do the same, free flatbed to the nearest charger, but I think only if you are on the battery rental scheme.

 

I've never run out in my 3 years of driving a Zoe and I'll never go back to ICE either.

 

I'm looking forward to Zoe 2 coming out at the end of 2019 beginning of 2020, 200+ miles of range with (probably) a 50kWh battery, 22kW AC charging and 50kW, maybe even 100kW, DC charging.

[Andrew_C]

Renault Zoe - Mandatory £59/month battery rental. That's more than I spend on petrol in a normal month!

[Theblacksheep]

Renault Zoe - £59/month battery rental. That's more than I spend on petrol in a normal month!

 

You can get them without the lease, but adds around £5k to the price.

 

The flip side of this is that the residual cost of battery's and electric motors are very high, so depreciation flattens out.

 

Some secondhand cars like leaf and zoe have appreciated over the last few years because the demand is high than the supply. I know someone that brought a leaf for £12k used it for 2 years (and 20k) and sold it for £13k (no servicing, 1/4 petrol cost). A written off Tesla Model S (say £65k new (at the time)) is worth £30k for the battery and motor (one) alone.

[casey]

Renault Zoe - Mandatory £59/month battery rental. That's more than I spend on petrol in a normal month!

 

The battery rental is a controversial thing but it's not mandatory if you buy the 'i' version, then you own the battery just like on any other EV.

 

It was started to allay peoples fears about the longevity of batteries (unfounded, so far), and to make the car appear to be cheaper.

There's no point me arguing about the price of EVs, they are more expensive than ICE cars at the moment. But to people who own them well worth it for the driving experience.

 

So you pays your money and you takes your choice, I chose battery rental but my dad couldn't get his head around it so bought his outright, battery and all. No problem, no sales person trying to push the rental.

 

I'll be within a couple of years of retirement when my PCP runs out on the current Zoe and the next EV I buy will probably be battery owned whatever make and model it is.

[houlta]

Renault Zoe - Mandatory £59/month battery rental. That's more than I spend on petrol in a normal month!

Heh, if only...

I'm using around £200 a month of fuel to commute at the moment and my car does 65 to the gallon.

So I'm a long way outside battery range at the moment

 

Another 10 years of battery improvement maybe it'll be viable.

[casey]

Heh, if only...

I'm using around £200 a month of fuel to commute at the moment and my car does 65 to the gallon.

So I'm a long way outside battery range at the moment

 

Another 10 years of battery improvement maybe it'll be viable.

 

Only £110 per month battery rental for unlimited mileage on the Zoe.

 

It just needs you to do less than 120-150 miles a day commute.

 

Or there's the Kia E-Niro 280 miles on a charge (12 to 14 months waiting list) or maybe the Hyundai Kona EV similar mileage but even longer waiting list..

[houlta]

I'm topping 75 after return trip, not that I can afford to buy a 20 grand plus car anyway, I've nowt left after paying for the fuel lol

[casey]

Maybe all of the people on here (and many other discussions all around t'intewebs) want to get to their destination really quickly because they hate driving rattly, smelly, vibrating ICE vehicles.

 

Could it be that's why I'm in less of a hurry, not age but the relaxing driving experience you get with an EV.

[casey]

I'm topping 75 after return trip, not that I can afford to buy a 20 grand plus car anyway, I've nowt left after paying for the fuel lol

 

Zoe with battery rental is about £15,000. Battery owned about £21,000 and if you factor in energy costs of about a tenth of your petrol you'd be quids in.

 

Then the first service is less than £100, brakes and discs should last about 75,000 to 100,000 miles due to regen braking.

 

Not winding you up, but you are a prime candidate for an EV as long as you have off road parking or a garage atached to your house, charger and fitting included with most EVs too.

[Andrew_C]

hate driving rattly, smelly, vibrating ICE vehicles.

relaxing driving experience

A trade off between sitting in an m-way services with the great unwashed, drinking coffee priced at more than their petrol, rather than sitting at my destination with a beer. Hmmm... Let me think about that.

 

In reality, I'd rather use the train, but that would be £180 and 4 1/2hours for the two of us return, or a tank of fuel at £60 and 3hrs.

[Sephiroth]

The way I see things, there are 2 main issues with EVs at the moment; The charging infrastructure is patchy and can be unreliable when it is there (though there has been a huge improvement over the last 2 years or so); And that range anxiety is still a very real issue.

 

Just for some context, I have a 15 plate Leaf 24KWh with a 81 mile stated range, ~65-70 actual range depending on what I'm doing. my daily commute at the moment is about 60 miles so I stop on the way home for a 10 minute top up for peace of mind (in case of road works or similar). It's the only car that we have as a family of 4 (2 school age children).

 

The first issue is a complex one, as we need more charging infrastructure and faster charging. Unfortunately EV charging it's still commonly compared to ICE fueling (5 minutes and you're off for another 400 miles), which is a little unfair, but this makes people want to charge within a certain time. As battery technology increases, it will take longer to charge. The tradeoff is that you don't do it as often. To go by the time limits means that the chargers need to up their ratings at the same pace as the battery tech. Alongside this, more and more EVs are on the roads, using more power at more chargers... how long do we have before the countries power infrastructure can't cope anymore? I'd wager not very long.

 

Secondly, range anxiety is an issue if you think of EVs as electric equivalents of ICE cars. I have had my Leaf for the last 2 years. It is a challenge to start with, but something that you get used to. Yes, it takes me longer on some journeys, but I'm fine with that as long as I plan it. I often (once a month or so) go to see a friend who lives nearly 200 miles from me. I stop to charge twice on the way for about 30 minutes each time. In my car I have a list of all the chargers on the route that I could use without deviating from my route. Same when I drive to London (~100 miles), plan the route and know how far you can get, then list everywhere you can stop just in case. Just to reiterate the same point I tell everyone that asks about EVs, they are great if you are able to or have the mindset to plan ahead and don't need to rush around everywhere. If that's the case, EVs aren't for you at the moment (at least, pure EVs aren't. I don't know enough about hybrids to comment there, though I gather they may be more forgiving).

 

I have come extremely close to flat (mostly due to charging infrastructure not working and having to find my way to the next charger, sometimes up to 40 miles away), but have yet to have the car stop. In those moments I have panicked slightly, but it's not much worse than running out of petrol. Again, it just needs planning... I have cover with my finance company that I can phone them and they take me to the nearest rapid charger, though as I said, I've not tested that one yet, and don't plan to

[casey]

Yes @Sephiroth, what you said. It is more complex than the comments that I and others in this thread have made.

 

But it’s been very interesting to have a discussion on a forum which has been civilised and constructive rather than descending into abuse/name calling that so many EV vs ICE threads in other places on the internet.

[houlta]

Zoe with battery rental is about £15,000. Battery owned about £21,000 and if you factor in energy costs of about a tenth of your petrol you'd be quids in.

 

Then the first service is less than £100, brakes and discs should last about 75,000 to 100,000 miles due to regen braking.

 

Not winding you up, but you are a prime candidate for an EV as long as you have off road parking or a garage atached to your house, charger and fitting included with most EVs too.

 

Can't see how it beats an old car.

I don't spend £15000 on a car, nowhere near. Even if I spent say just £20 per month on electricity I've still got to find £3000 deposit and then £307 per month if I want the unlimited battery mileage.

Just the initial first year alone is more than I will have spent on my car over 4 years and I'm not including the 4 or 5 grand left over after 4 years on that PCP either as it's probably better to view it as a 4 year rental.

 

Now if it was zero deposit...yeah I'd probably look seriously into it. I'm going by this by the way - https://offers.renault.co.uk/cars/zoe/renaultselectionszeaccess?offer=387

[casey]

A trade off between sitting in an m-way services with the great unwashed, drinking coffee priced at more than their petrol, rather than sitting at my destination with a beer. Hmmm... Let me think about that.

 

In reality, I'd rather use the train, but that would be £180 and 4 1/2hours for the two of us return, or a tank of fuel at £60 and 3hrs.

 

Alternatively, spent 45 minutes hoping you won't catch anything nasty in those services spend £10 on expensive coffee, spend £10 charging (at home before the journey and at the services) arrive a mere 45 minutes later and £40 better off. Hmmm... etc.

[Sephiroth]

Alternatively, spent 45 minutes hoping you won't catch anything nasty in those services spend £10 on expensive coffee, spend £10 charging (at home before the journey and at the services) arrive a mere 45 minutes later and £40 better off. Hmmm... etc.

 

Better still, invest in a thermal travel mug/thermos and take with you, saving another £10, and leave 45 minutes earlier. Then you arrive on time and £50 better off...

 

[Andrew_C]

I think my boss would be P'd if I left 45 mins earlier on a Friday...

 

And remember, it is only 45 mins if there is a charger free when you turn up.

[casey]

I think my boss would be P'd if I left 45 mins earlier on a Friday...

 

And remember, it is only 45 mins if there is a charger free when you turn up.

 

Ah, I didn't realise this journey was after work on Friday. That makes all the difference.

 

Anyway an EV suits me and my lifestyle very well but not you and yours.

 

It's early in the transition to alternative fuels and things will change over time.

 

It will be interesting to see how a similar discussion would go in 5 years. (All hail President Musk, world leader or mmm... Tesla, didn't they used to make cars)

[Theblacksheep]

Can't see how it beats an old car.

 

Isn't comparing the price of an old car to a brand new car... a bit unfair?

 

Old Leaf's and Zoe's can be brought for £6k and if you are looking at reducing the purchase cost this is where the battery lease works great.

 

 

I'm using around £200 a month of fuel to commute at the moment and my car does 65 to the gallon.

So I'm a long way outside battery range at the moment

 

190 miles a day?

 

Kona (now), Eniro (now), Model3 (June), Model S (now) Jag (now), VW/Seat/Skoda platform (2020) all do 300 miles a charge. If you do 190 miles a day, you would only need to charge to 85%, arrive home with spare and never need to visit a garage, just charge at night.

 

 

 

 

On a separate note, this is my favourite advert for EVs, an oldie but a goodie.

Edited May 3, 2019 by Theblacksheep